General News, Questions And Discussions - Indian Navy

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It looks like the P-18 class of destroyers are no longer to be considered fan fiction. This is about as official it can get. it seems they will be going for IEP. Wouldn't be a very difficult to imagine the rest of the far fetched spec sheet of the P-18 is on the track as well.

Indian Navy takes a big leap towards electric propulsion of warships

Training facilities set up prepare personnel to power next generation platforms

July 2, 2019, By Vishal Thapar

Electric propulsion has debuted on the US Navy Zumwalt class destroyers illustrated in this picture. Along with the US, the UK is also an early mover to electric with the Queen Elizabeth carriers, Type 45 destroyers and Type 23 frigates

The next generation of Indian Navy warships will be powered by electrical propulsion systems. Facilities to train naval engineers to operate electric drive ships have been set up ahead of construction programmes for new warships, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Southern Command Vice-Admiral Anil Chawla disclosed in an exclusive interview to SP's.

Integrated electric power generation in surface warships has been described as the "direction of future naval propulsion", and this transition would mark a major technological leap. The US and UK have taken an early lead in the adoption of electrical propulsion in the Zumwalt class and Type 45 destroyers respectively, besides the Queen Elizabeth carriers and Type 23 frigates of the Royal Navy.

The new Landing Platform Dock (LPD) amphibious warships will be the first Indian Navy ships fitted with an electrical drive. "More significantly, the Indian Navy envisages electrical propulsion for its next series of destroyers, the P18, and aircraft carriers of the future," sources elaborated.

"....(There will be ) electrical propulsion in some of our future platforms, and accordingly, facilities to train personnel in electrical propulsion have already been set-up," Vice-Admiral Chawla told SP's.

Informed sources revealed to SP's that the new Landing Platform Dock (LPD) amphibious warships will be the first Indian Navy ships fitted with an electrical drive. "More significantly, the Indian Navy envisages electrical propulsion for its next series of destroyers, the P18, and aircraft carriers of the future," sources elaborated.

This next generation of naval propulsion will enable better stealth due to significant noise reduction, lesser fuel requirement, improvement in speed, reduction in environmental risks and an increase in manoeuverability.

The shift to electric will open up new avenues for procurement of propulsion systems for the Indian Navy. Warships built in India have traditionally relied upon the Soviet legacy Zorya-Mashproekt gas turbine engines from Ukraine

SP's has learnt that a 5 MW electric propulsion system has been set up by Siemens of Germany at the onshore training establishment INS Valsura at Jamnagar in Gujarat to familiarise Indian Naval engineers with the technology and train them to operate the system.

The shift to electric will open up new avenues for procurement of propulsion systems for the Indian Navy. Warships built in India have traditionally relied upon the Soviet legacy Zorya-Mashproekt gas turbine engines from Ukraine.

(The full text of the interview with Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief Southern Naval Command Vice-Admiral Anil Chawla will be published in the forthcoming edition of SP's Naval Forces, and also be uplinked on this website soon)


Indian Navy takes a big leap towards electric propulsion of warships - SP's Naval Forces
The incorporation of IEP/IFEP will not remove the dependence on Gas Turbine engines. When they talk about Electric propulsion, they are basically talking about transmission. The IEP motors will remove the need for conventional gearboxes - thus resulting in a vessel that is significantly quieter.

The primary source of power on-board will remain the turbines. As is the case in the Zumwalt as well, which uses the Rolls-Royce Marine Trent series turbines.

However, I will be glad if we cease our dependence on the Ukrainian Zorya turbines on our destroyer-class vessels and switch over completely to either General Electric or Rolls-Royce as the suppliers for all future vessels (preferably GE as they already supply for frigate-classes). The prime reason why Zorya remains the supplier for P-15A/B is likely because of the lineage these ships draw from the earlier P-15 Delhi-class DDG, which was built with extensive Soviet/Russian influences.
 

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The incorporation of IEP/IFEP will not remove the dependence on Gas Turbine engines. When they talk about Electric propulsion, they are basically talking about transmission. The IEP motors will remove the need for conventional gearboxes - thus resulting in a vessel that is significantly quieter.

The primary source of power on-board will remain the turbines. As is the case in the Zumwalt as well, which uses the Rolls-Royce Marine Trent series turbines.

However, I will be glad if we cease our dependence on the Ukrainian Zorya turbines on our destroyer-class vessels and switch over completely to either General Electric or Rolls-Royce as the suppliers for all future vessels (preferably GE as they already supply for frigate-classes). The prime reason why Zorya remains the supplier for P-15A/B is likely because of the lineage these ships draw from the earlier P-15 Delhi-class DDG, which was built with extensive Soviet/Russian influences.
Those turbines are something which we should have started building in India by a hook or a crook method.

We need to learn a thing or two from China. And start extracting benefits from places we can without any big harm.
 

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Those turbines are something which we should have started building in India by a hook or a crook method.

We need to learn a thing or two from China. And start extracting benefits from places we can without any big harm.
For the amount of hoopla we do with indigenisation, we don't back that up with solid workable plans.

In 2008 the Navy tested the Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine(KMGT), a derivative of the Kaveri aero-engine with the same core, in their Marine Gas Turbine Test Bed facility in Naval Dock Yard, Vishakapatnam. The engine was run at 12 MW at ISA SL 35°C condition. It was for the requirement of the Navy for propelling the Rajput class of destroyers. The plan was to push the power out put to 15 MW, the Rajput class vessels would need 4 turbines each to power them. The Navy was willing to fund the effort and was willing to give out an official commitment of acquiring 20 KMGT(4 each for 5 ships) as a part of the Rajput class vessel mordenisation and overhaul plan.

Here is a report : Press Information Bureau

1562398839121.png

Pic : KMGT in the Vishakapatnam facility undergoing some tests.(circa 2008-9)

This was a good plan, it was a workable plan. The demands weren't that steep, GTRE themselves said that with some modifications to the compressor stages the goals could be achieved. The Navy is known to support domestic industry more than any other branch of the military, they have experience in working in these types of "from the scratch" development efforts. They are willing to bear the costs so GTRE has nothing to lose, if anything they will gain critical operational experience from the Navy if it works.

Taking a deal like this is a no-brainer really. So what does the GTRE do ? They rejected the offer saying the order of 20 engines is too small for the GTRE to commit any serious manpower and effort into a marine engine. Also the GTRE chief proudly announced at the time that the GTRE would make a flying engine operational first, not some marine engine. This was in 2009, now its 2019, ten years down the line where is that flying engine bitch ?

With the rejection by the GTRE, the effort for re-engining the Rajput class destroyer effectively died down. INS Ranjit(D53) was retired on 6th May 2019, after 36 years of service. This was the first of the Rajput class to be decommissioned from service, the 4 others of her class are likely to continue on for a while. She had plenty of life left in her and maybe if the project stayed on track she would still be in service with a more powerful propulsion pack.

We and our missed opportunities.:rolleyes:
 

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What's the difference between diesel electric and electric propulsion?
@Fafnir
Good question. Technically DE is a type of electric propulsion, but for this demonstration we'll assume it's not. Non-electric propulsion sees the propeller shaft connected directly to the and engine - the engine directly powers, rotates and varies the speed of the prop and screw. It's pretty much that simple.

Electric propulsion is a tad different though. As stated above diesel-electric is a type of electric propulsion, as are fuel cells, batteries or magnets. In an electric propulsion system the engines don't directly power the prop and screw, rather they power constant or variant frequency motors or electrical controllers. While a controller limits prop rotation and frequency automatically, a motor must do so by varying power output to the prop and screw. The most important thing to remember is that in a non-electric system there is mechanical transmission. Electric propulsion doesn't mechanically control the screw or prop, it's all done electronically.

This illustration takes everything I wrote above and condenses it into a simple graphic. Just remember that the generator engine doesn't have to be electric itself, it can burn gas or oil or be magnetically generated electricity, but to be considered an electric propulsion system it has to power electronic motors which control prop speed and vector.



The article you quoted mentions the UK's Type 45. It uses a system called Integrated electric propulsion, which uses diesel and gas turbines to generate electricity which powers electric motors, but since the motors control the prop this system, a type of CODLAG propulsion arrangement, technically isn't CODLAG. Since there is electronic control, power can be varied or distributed where it's needed, including to advanced gun systems or auxiliary sensors.



Traditional CODLAG designs, not an electric propulsion system, also have both diesel and gas turbines like the Type 45's IEP system, but power the prop and screw directly via electric motors and gearboxes.



Permanent magnet motors are pretty cool. They send power through electric coils, making the coil an electromagnet. The coil is surrounded by permanent magnets (magnets that don't lose their charge), which attract the now magnetized coil and cause the coil to rotate generating electricity. They're quiet, safe and nearly maintenance free expect during extreme abuse.

it's old hat on RC ships and small vehicles, but newer on large ships. The USN's Zumwalt class was intended to have a permanent magnet motor, but due to cost (those ships are one big cost overrun) an integrated electric propulsion system - diesel and gas - was chosen. Permanent magnets are a great alternative to fuel cell or battery systems for submarines.



Speaking of submarines, there's a lot of different AIP designs, but they generally do the same thing and are also a type of electric propulsion, since for noise's sake they're paired with quiet electric motors rather then rotating screws, which if you've ever been in the machine room of a ship with non-electric systems, are rather noisy. This is a German Type 212 showing its compressed hydrogen fuel cells:



Each fuel cell is an anode, a cathode and a proton exchange membrane sandwiched in between. Hydrogen, from a tank onboard the vehicle, enters into the anode side of the fuel cell. Oxygen, pulled from the air, enters the cathode side. As the hydrogen molecule encounters the membrane, a catalyst forces it to split into electron and proton. The proton moves through the fuel cell stack and the electron follows an external circuit, delivering current to the electric motor and other vehicle components. At the cathode side, the proton and electron join again, and then combine with oxygen to form the vehicle’s only tailpipe emission, water.

Drive Clean - Hydrogen Fuel Cell

IN this case the water is off-boarded where its temperature differential quickly dilutes with the ocean or sea's background temperature, but it's noticeable if you know where to look - a type of non-acoustic signature leakage.

Electric propulsion, despite being around for a while on submarines, in cars and on trains, is actually fairly new on naval combatant ships, especially large ones like frigates or destroyers. Most use either CODAG, COGAG or CODLAG propulsion.

That's a small rundown of electric versus non-electric propulsion:).
 
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Good question. Technically DE is a type of electric propulsion, but for this demonstration we'll assume it's not. Non-electric propulsion sees the propeller shaft connected directly to the and engine - the engine directly powers, rotates and varies the speed of the prop and screw. It's pretty much that simple.

Electric propulsion is a tad different though. As stated above diesel-electric is a type of electric propulsion, as are fuel cells, batteries or magnets. In an electric propulsion system the engines don't directly power the prop and screw, rather they power constant or variant frequency motors or electrical controllers. While a controller limits prop rotation and frequency automatically, a motor must do so by varying power output to the prop and screw. The most important thing to remember is that in a non-electric system there is mechanical transmission. Electric propulsion doesn't mechanically control the screw or prop, it's all done electronically.

This illustration takes everything I wrote above and condenses it into a simple graphic. Just remember that the generator engine doesn't have to be electric itself, it can burn gas or oil or be magnetically generated electricity, but to be considered an electric propulsion system it has to power electronic motors which control prop speed and vector.



The article you quoted mentions the UK's Type 45. It uses a system called Integrated electric propulsion, which uses diesel and gas turbines to generate electricity which powers electric motors, but since the motors control the prop this system, a type of CODLAG propulsion arrangement, technically isn't CODLAG. Since there is electronic control, power can be varied or distributed where it's needed, including to advanced gun systems or auxiliary sensors.



Traditional CODLAG designs, not an electric propulsion system, also have both diesel and gas turbines like the Type 45's IEP system, but power the prop and screw directly via electric motors and gearboxes.



Permanent magnet motors are pretty cool. They send power through electric coils, making the coil an electromagnet. The coil is surrounded by permanent magnets (magnets that don't lose their charge), which attract the now magnetized coil and cause the coil to rotate generating electricity. They're quiet, safe and nearly maintenance free expect during extreme abuse.

it's old hat on RC ships and small vehicles, but newer on large ships. The USN's Zumwalt class was intended to have a permanent magnet motor, but due to cost (those ships are one big cost overrun) an integrated electric propulsion system - diesel and gas - was chosen. Permanent magnets are a great alternative to fuel cell or battery systems for submarines.



Speaking of submarines, there's a lot of different AIP designs, but they generally do the same thing and are also a type of electric propulsion, since for noise's sake they're paired with quiet electric motors rather then rotating screws, which if you've ever been in the machine room of a ship with non-electric systems, are rather noisy. This is a German Type 212 showing its compressed hydrogen fuel cells:



Each fuel cell is an anode, a cathode and a proton exchange membrane sandwiched in between. Hydrogen, from a tank onboard the vehicle, enters into the anode side of the fuel cell. Oxygen, pulled from the air, enters the cathode side. As the hydrogen molecule encounters the membrane, a catalyst forces it to split into electron and proton. The proton moves through the fuel cell stack and the electron follows an external circuit, delivering current to the electric motor and other vehicle components. At the cathode side, the proton and electron join again, and then combine with oxygen to form the vehicle’s only tailpipe emission, water.

Drive Clean - Hydrogen Fuel Cell

IN this case the water is off-boarded where its temperature differential quickly dilutes with the ocean or sea's background temperature, but it's noticeable if you know where to look - a type of non-acoustic signature leakage.

Electric propulsion, despite being around for a while on submarines, in cars and on trains, is actually fairly new on naval combatant ships, especially large ones like frigates or destroyers. Most use either CODAG, COGAG or CODLAG propulsion.

That's a small rundown of electric versus non-electric propulsion:).
Looking at the illustration image, I felt deja vu, probably you have explained it earlier.

Great to know, every AIP would leave some signature.. Only we have to look specifically for it.

India s DRDO phosphoric acid AIP will be one of the kind then.
 

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Mumbai police laud Indian Navy sailor for rescuing drowning woman at Gateway of India
Indian Navy sailor Pankaj Kala received a letter of appreciation on July 18, 2019 from Mumbai police for rescuing a woman who was drowning at the Arabian sea near Gateway of India a week ago. The sailor Pankaj Kala saved the drowning woman, identified as Pratiksha Dinesh Mohite (30), despite all odds and risking his own life during the high-tide in the sea at night.


Pankaj Kala, who is professional diver, has been in the Indian Navy since 2004 and has been part of Indian Naval Diving Team in New Delhi. Reportedly, Kala is all set to take voluntary retirement from the defence by the end of this month. He was in Mumbai when the incident occurred.


Talking to mid-day, Kala said, "It was 8:15 pm on July 12 and I was having evening walk near Gateway of India. I was speaking to someone over the phone when I noticed stampede like situation right in front of me. People were asking for help as one woman was drowning in the sea."


According to our sources, nearly 100 tourists had gathered there but none of them dared to dive into the sea and save the drowning woman. It was night time and there was high tide in the sea. The spectators gathered at the spot and started clicking pictures and recording videos of the entire episode.


"It took nearly 10 seconds to me to decide before jumping into the sea with rough and high tidal waves in the night. I handed over my cellphone and wallet to one elderly woman and jumped into the sea sans removing clothes and shoes. The woman was crying for help. Due to the tidal waves, the woman was drifting towards the sea, but somehow I managed to swim closer to her," said Kala.


Meanwhile, the Mumbai police and Fire Brigade team had reached the spot, lowered 15 mm rope and pulled them up. "The rescue operation lasted for nearly 25 minutes," said one of the police officials from Colaba police station.


Following the rescue operation, the woman and Kala were rushed to St. George hospital where they were given immediate medical attention. "I had got my hand injured in the rescue operation," said Kala.


"Colaba police station appreciates the courage and sense of responsibility towards the community shown by Pankaj Kala, who is a Clearance Diver in the Indian Navy. We give him deepest gratitude for his courage and applaud the efforts and high level of commitment towards the community," said Shivaji Phadtare, senior inspector of Colaba police station.


While the chief public relations officer Commander Mehul Karnik said, "By saving the drowning person in challenging conditions and with total disregard for personal safety, the sailor has displayed a very high standard of moral and physical courage in keeping with the highest traditions of Indian Navy."
Mumbai police laud Indian Navy sailor for rescuing drowning woman at Gateway of India
 

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Japan, U.S., India mine countermeasures forces practice skills
OMINATO, Japan - The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF), U.S. Navy and participants from the Indian Navy commenced Mine Warfare Exercise 2JA 2019 off the coast of northern Japan, July 18.

Part of an annual exercise series with the U.S. Navy and JMSDF, joined again this year by forces from the Indian Navy, 2JA increases proficiency in mine countermeasures operations and allows forces from partner nations to practice working together.

"Countering the mine threat is an essential mission that enables us to support a free and open Indo-Pacific region," said Rear Adm. Fred Kacher, commander of Expeditionary Strike Group 7. "The value of the relationships we build with our partners and allies as we conduct combined drills and exercises in this vital region cannot be overstated. Training and operating together during exercise 2JA will keep our mine warfare skills sharp and our partnership strong."

During the exercise, participating units will practice unit-level mine warfare tactics to include sweeping, hunting, and mine detection.

Mine Squadron 2 and commander, Mine Countermeasures Squadron 7 will work together throughout the exercise to direct mine hunting tasks U.S. and JMSDF ships. This training will allow all the units to practice communicating and operating in a combined environment and learn to maximize their cumulative mine hunting capability.

JMSDF units include Mine Warfare Force (MWF); commander, Mine Divisions (CMD) 1, 2, 3, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, and 101; mine sweeper tenders JS Uraga (MST-463) and JS Bungo (MST-464) ; mine-sweep ocean ship JS Awaji (MSO-304); mine-sweep controller ship JS Yugeshima (MCL-731); fourteen mine-sweep coastal ships; three mine countermeasures helicopters (MCH) 101 from Flight Squadron 111; and P-3C and P-1 aircraft from Flight Squadrons 1, 2, 3, and 5.

U.S. units participating include USS Warrior (MCM 10), Explosive Ordnance Disposal Mobile Unit 5, Platoon 501 and the staff from Mine Countermeasures Squadron 7. Indian Navy explosive ordnance disposal personnel will also participate.

MCMRON 7 is forward deployed to Sasebo, Japan and consists of USS Patriot (MCM 7), USS Pioneer (MCM 9), USS Warrior (MCM 10), and USS Chief (MCM 14).
Japan, U.S., India mine countermeasures forces practice skills
 

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Probably. Remember the tag attached to NSM ? NSM-SR.
SR maybe the 150 km version
MR maybe the 300 km version(Assuming there is a MR.)

We still use those older Soviet P-15 Termit missiles for shore defence job, right ? Maybe there will be multiple(land/sea/air) versions of the NASM filling those needs. What kind of engines will it use ? solid rocket or turbofan ? The prototype line drawing doesn't show any intakes so maybe solid rocket.
 

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Probably. Remember the tag attached to NSM? NSM-SR.
SR maybe the 150 km version
MR maybe the 300 km version(Assuming there is a MR.)
There are no versions. NSM only comes in one variety, but can be fitted with additional propulsion options to tailor the missile for launch from other platforms like helicopters or submarines.

And for the Maker's sake, dump the freaking P-15 already! There are so many better options out there.



Buy JSM too:whistle:. The P-8I needs a replacement for Harpoon.

 
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There are no versions. NSM only comes in one variety, but can be fitted with additional propulsion options to tailor the missile for launch from other platforms like helicopters or submarines.
My bad, I should have said NASM-SR not NSM. I wasn't talking about the Norwegian NSM. There is a new developmental missile, here is what we know so far :
DRDO NASM-SR(Naval Anti-Ship Missile-Short Range).
Weight - 350kg
Length - 3.8m
Launch Platform - Aircraft(helicopter maybe)
1564923623937.png


We don't know the range figures yet so I was just guessing. And the QR/ER/SR/MR/LR/XR is pretty much our functional naming tradition. Look at our SAM line up. There is a QR-SAM, MR-SAM, LR-SAM, XR-SAM and so on. By our history of missile development as long as there is a SR, there will be a MR. If there wasn't a MR, the SR designation would be missing.

But all this is just guess work.
 

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Probably. Remember the tag attached to NSM ? NSM-SR.
SR maybe the 150 km version
MR maybe the 300 km version(Assuming there is a MR.)

We still use those older Soviet P-15 Termit missiles for shore defence job, right ? Maybe there will be multiple(land/sea/air) versions of the NASM filling those needs. What kind of engines will it use ? solid rocket or turbofan ? The prototype line drawing doesn't show any intakes so maybe solid rocket.
We are likely procuring NSM as Anti Ship weapon for our NMRH fleet. So procuring NSM for ship launched anti ship missile should be the goal, simplyfing logistics.

For coastal role, requirement is of minimum 250km, NSM in low-low-low profile does 185km, it should be able to do 250-300km in high-high-low profile. I suggested NSM for common weapon systems.

Else new variant of KH35 and RBS15 are also the options.
 

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We are likely procuring NSM as Anti Ship weapon for our NMRH fleet. So procuring NSM for ship launched anti ship missile should be the goal, simplyfing logistics.

For coastal role, requirement is of minimum 250km, NSM in low-low-low profile does 185km, it should be able to do 250-300km in high-high-low profile. I suggested NSM for common weapon systems.

Else new variant of KH35 and RBS15 are also the options.
All options are imports ?? For shame man, for shame.:cautious: