Europe must resist pressure to become ‘America’s followers,’ says Macron

First of all, 1000 km per day is a speed of 22.5 kt, which is achievable by the CDG escort without any insoluble problems.

Escorts do not have that range. Multiple refuelling stops will have to be made, and numerous supply stops as well, at 22.5kt 'cause cruise speeds are much lower than that. And once you get to the battlespace, there's not much supplies available. And the Chinese have enough numbers to surround you.

Secondly, if China were to mount an operation to seize French territory, the preparations would not go unnoticed by French intelligence, which would trigger the deployment I mentioned and pre position of SNA.

It could take a month for the MN to arrive. And, as I said before, the number of ships is not enough. The arrival of the CdG/PANG may stop an invasion of New Caledonia, but not the other islands. And you will have to give up on protecting French shores in the meantime.

Finally, the distance between Shanghai and Papeete is 11,000 km, or more than half the distance between France and our territories.

You are looking at ballistic trajectory, not the full shipping distance. France will have to use either the Panama or the Suez Canal, it's not gonna be easy. And the South Pacific is much more their own frontyard than yours.

Their deployment will also be complicated and will take time, and they don't have all the aircraft carriers you're talking about yet,

That will rapidly change. With 2 shipyards building carriers, which could increase in intensity in a post-war world, they could very easily have 10-20 carriers operating well before the 2040s, when France will have only 1 new carrier.

in addition, if the Rafale encounter these aircraft carriers on their way to Polynesia, it will be an opportunity to sink them.

Instead the Rafales are more than likely gonna be challenged by Chinese fighters first. In this scenario, you are gonna risk your own refuellers rather than put the Chinese carriers at risk. In any case, a fleet 20 Rafales is merely for power projection, not for warfighting. All you can get out of it is one sortie.

In pretty much any scenario, French forces won't make it in time unless forward deployed. And to forward deploy, you need numbers that you don't have. At the same time, you are risking your relatively small navy being sunk, which in turn will put your entire security calculus at risk.

For the Indo-Pacific alone, France needs a 2-3 carrier navy, essentially a Royal Navy or an Indian Navy, so the current MN can stay in the Atlantic.
A war wouldn't have happened over fish, JFC. :ROFLMAO: What they were doing with NI was far more contentious and even that was never close to war. Now, from my perspective, I'm happy with the new EU proposal and I think it's the DUP being stubborn, before that it was definitely the EU.

Lol, dude. Ever heard of sarcasm?
 
Not saying this as an australian..but...A french armada would even have trouble attacking Australia. It wouldn't be pretty. I think with China, they have already decided to stay home. just cut the pacific loose.
 
Yes, That is why Anglo-Saxons have started the game of pushing out France from major weapons sales. Australian submarine debacle is one such example. Next in line is Jet Engine Deal with India. RR and GE making a pitch for this deal is basically to isolate France from Indian weapons market.

India won't allow that to happen though. Even if we go for RR or GE, France will still get a Rafale deal out of it. And there are other countries like Indonesia and the ME that like to balance out their relations between the US/UK and France.

One of the other methods is demographic changes. The NATO led invasions of North Africa and other arab states has resulted in flood of muslim refugees to EU with a large part of funds meant for the welfare of EU citizens, now being diverted to support these illigal immigrants. Some Nations within EU have already breached the 10% mark for muslim population and that means civil war can erupt anyday.

 
I may have mentioned....To france, everyone is just a customer. They will throw you under the bus, at the first hurdle. That includes, their colonies in the Pacific.

That isn't the problem, they are excellent as allies when they decide to become one. The problem is they are refusing to see reality in this situation.

They want China to be someone else's problem. But they are not ready to deal with a situation where China decides France is now their problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BMD
That isn't the problem, they are excellent as allies when they decide to become one. The problem is they are refusing to see reality in this situation.

They want China to be someone else's problem. But they are not ready to deal with a situation where China decides France is now their problem.
It's a good job the US doesn't take that position with Europe, either now or historically.
 
Escorts do not have that range. Multiple refuelling stops will have to be made, and numerous supply stops as well, at 22.5kt 'cause cruise speeds are much lower than that. And once you get to the battlespace, there's not much supplies available. And the Chinese have enough numbers to surround you.

It could take a month for the MN to arrive. And, as I said before, the number of ships is not enough. The arrival of the CdG/PANG may stop an invasion of New Caledonia, but not the other islands. And you will have to give up on protecting French shores in the meantime.

You are looking at ballistic trajectory, not the full shipping distance. France will have to use either the Panama or the Suez Canal, it's not gonna be easy. And the South Pacific is much more their own frontyard than yours.

That will rapidly change. With 2 shipyards building carriers, which could increase in intensity in a post-war world, they could very easily have 10-20 carriers operating well before the 2040s, when France will have only 1 new carrier.

Instead the Rafales are more than likely gonna be challenged by Chinese fighters first. In this scenario, you are gonna risk your own refuellers rather than put the Chinese carriers at risk. In any case, a fleet 20 Rafales is merely for power projection, not for warfighting. All you can get out of it is one sortie.

In pretty much any scenario, French forces won't make it in time unless forward deployed. And to forward deploy, you need numbers that you don't have. At the same time, you are risking your relatively small navy being sunk, which in turn will put your entire security calculus at risk.

For the Indo-Pacific alone, France needs a 2-3 carrier navy, essentially a Royal Navy or an Indian Navy, so the current MN can stay in the Atlantic.
I don't like to play the game of who's got the biggest, but I must note that you attribute weaknesses to us that are those of the junk marines, for example when our Chief of Staff says that the CDG can move 1,000 km a day, he doesn't mean the GDG alone but the group formed around the CDG, we have supply tankers and logistical support ships and we don't have to stop for supplies.

You also greatly underestimate the power of the CDG when you suggest having the two Royal Navy aircraft carriers instead: it is quite obvious that the CDG is capable of generating many more sorties than the two Royal Navy aircraft carriers combined.

I won't argue with the way you overestimate the possibilities of the Chinese fleet against the French Navy as it is an insult to our know-how.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Amarante
I wonder how quickly the European tone will change after they realize China is on the European borders.

Russia isn't going to be a military threat without China's military resupply after the war. China like USA needs naval and air forces, so why not toss Europe their land forces from both sides?

Ukraine soldier salary is like 1/50th the price of a USA Army soldier, yet more effective at deterring Russia.
 
India won't allow that to happen though. Even if we go for RR or GE, France will still get a Rafale deal out of it. And there are other countries like Indonesia and the ME that like to balance out their relations between the US/UK and France. short term but in long term, after de-dollarisation

I hope and pray. France has stood by us in our worst times and I want the deal to go to them. But I now see France over pricing their equipmnet and that will ensure thier defeat in every deal. But in post de-dorallisaition regime France will revert back to Franc as a currurency and dump Euro. UK has already agreed to do biz with us in Rupee. Frecnce revreting back to franc alone will ensure the safety of their economy.
India and China have reduced their USD holdings by buying Gold. And in next six months, Indian reserves will be in Gold standard only and so will be of all BRICS members. Euro will be dumped and only national currency will be given the status of a currency which can be used for trade. In August Brics will launch its currency led by India. We will redifine how the trade is done across the globe. USA seizing 600B assets of Russia and supported by European Nations has sent a very bad signal to the world. I had written about it earlier as well and now every nation is moving its currency to assets base. read about what the Americans are saying themselves about the shit USA created. Holding anything in USD means that a nations is now a slave of USA. BRICS will destroy USD and EURO in one single stroke led by India. We are going to even allow barter trade.
Europe will revert to the days of 13th century with people living on streets and shitting on pavements and so will USA. Its already happening as USA to day has largest number of homeless people. The bubble of reserved currency status which allowed USA and EU to pass on inflation to rest of the world by printing unlimited currency are now over. Thanks to a man called Narendra Modi. Europe and USA must now look at a world which will force their thoughts on them. Welcome to a true democratic world led By Shri Narendra Modi.
 
Last edited:
I don't like to play the game of who's got the biggest, but I must note that you attribute weaknesses to us that are those of the junk marines, for example when our Chief of Staff says that the CDG can move 1,000 km a day, he doesn't mean the GDG alone but the group formed around the CDG, we have supply tankers and logistical support ships and we don't have to stop for supplies.

He would have most likely had an upper limit to where that will end. It's not global range.

And you have assumed the Chinese won't do anything to stop you from reaching the battlespace. You forget that this sees the USN out of the picture. So, even if temporary, the Chinese will have more presence in the South Pacific. It makes sense to me for the Chinese to take over the South Pacific and build bases there while the USN recoups losses.

You also greatly underestimate the power of the CDG when you suggest having the two Royal Navy aircraft carriers instead: it is quite obvious that the CDG is capable of generating many more sorties than the two Royal Navy aircraft carriers combined.

No, I'm not saying you need 2 QE class, I'm saying you need 2 more CdGs for the Indo-Pacific alone, even 3 if necessary. I'm basically saying you need 2-3 times the number of your own ships.

There are two major weaknesses of the CdG that you haven't thought of. One, it can't be in two places at once, never mind three. Two, the Chinese won't attack when the CdG is available, they will do it when the carrier is being drydocked or refuelled. You can't do anything about the former. And the only way to circumvent the latter is with 3 carriers minimum, so at least 2 are available at any one time.

Your only real answer to fighting the Chinese on your own is a much larger navy. You can't get around this fact. You either build it now and preempt the Chinese or you build one after the Chinese have taken your territories.

I won't argue with the way you overestimate the possibilities of the Chinese fleet against the French Navy as it is an insult to our know-how.

You have barely even considered any realistic scenario. You have considered the best possible MN against the worst possible PLAN. That's not how planning works. You have severely underestimated the issue here.

I'd actually argue that the Chinese taking French territories is such a huge disadvantage to the US that they will involve themselves, and that's probably what Macron is counting on. If that happens, then your sovereignty goes up in a puff of smoke.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Amarante
France needs to spend a minimum of 3.5% of GDP on the military.

That would require the French working till 67 and the French would rather have anarchy than that :LOL:
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Amarante
I hope and pray. France has stood by us in our worst times and I want the deal to go to them. But I now see France over pricing their equipmnet and that will ensure thier defeat in every deal.

I'm pretty confident the MRFA will see Rafale with the advantage. The Russians have no chance with the Mig-35 and Su-35, one is too old and the other lacks an operational AESA. F-16 and Gripen will get kicked out due to their SE design. The only jets left are Rafale, F-15EX and Typhoon and the Rafale is hands down the cheapest of the three.

But in post de-dorallisaition regime France will revert back to Franc as a currurency and dump Euro. UK has already agreed to do biz vd us in Rupee. Frecnce revreting back to franc alone will ensure the safety of their economy.
India and China have reduced their USD holdings by buying Gold. And in next six months, Indian reserves will be in Gold standard only and so will be of all BRICS members. Euro will be dumped and only national currency will be given the status of a currency which can be used for trade. In August Brics will launch its currency led by India. We will redifine how the trade is done across the globe. USA ceasing 600B assets of Russia and supported by European Nations has sent a very bad signal to the world. I had written about it earlier as well and now every nation is moving its currency to assets base. read about what the Americans are saying themselves about the shit USA created. Holding anything in USD means that the a nations is now a slave of USA. BRICS will destroy USD and EURO in one single stroke led by India. We are going to even alow barter trade.
Europe will revert to the days of 13th century with people living on streets and shitting on pavements and so will USA. Its already happening as USA to day has largest number of homeless people. The bubble of reserved currency status which allowed USA and EU to pass on inflation to rest of the world by printing unlimited currency are now over. Thanks to a man called Narendra Modi. Europe and USA must now look at a world which will force their thoughts on them. Welcome to a true democratic world led By Shri Narendra Modi.

All this could take decades to play out though, if it does.
 
I wonder how quickly the European tone will change after they realize China is on the European borders.

Russia isn't going to be a military threat without China's military resupply after the war. China like USA needs naval and air forces, so why not toss Europe their land forces from both sides?

Ukraine soldier salary is like 1/50th the price of a USA Army soldier, yet more effective at deterring Russia.
I'm sure that China is funding Russia against Ukraine now.
 
You have barely even considered any realistic scenario. You have considered the best possible MN against the worst possible PLAN. That's not how planning works. You have severely underestimated the issue here.
Of course I haven't considered any scenario, I've only responded to your description of a situation where France is being pushed out of its territories by the Chinese without any difficulty. Well, if the Chinese believe that, they are very much mistaken and so much the better. For all your objections there are solutions, but this is a pointless discussion because I am not an operational person and neither are you.
 
My issue with Macroni is the timing of his speech and tone of his speech. His content is obviously correct, Europe should be a power capable of acting alone. Say America became engaged in Pacific, Korea, India, Japan, Philippines, and Australia all fighting. I also disagree making it seem like USA and China are equally responsible for escalating Taiwan. Everyone's preference is obviously nothing happens, but we're going to try and raise the odds of victory should a conflict happen.

On Europe power level, if Iran and Russia start fighting. Then Europe should be able to cover Middle East and Europe. That's not even a big ask tbh.

Anyways, the end result of his speech is America is going to have a tougher time passing aid in the next Congress. So Europe can shoulder the full economic aid, while America sends military aid.

Yipee Macron speech?