Eurofighter Typhoon - Updates and Discussions

screambowl

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Dec 19, 2017
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and can hence generate more electrical power.
It's not about electrical power. Of course it does play role. It's actually about ERP and the radiation pattern which determines the strength of the signal in a particular direction.

It also depends on how T/R module is connected to the antenna through transmission line. Because there is a significant loss of power during transmission. So output power is not necessarily the final value. What power does antenna receive and how it generates the pattern that is very important.

There are thousand factors determining the signal strength.

It is very tough to determine without experimenting in different environments speed, power etc.
 
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BMD

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Dec 4, 2017
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It's not about electrical power. Of course it does play role. It's actually about ERP and the radiation pattern which determines the strength of the signal in a particular direction.

It also depends on how T/R module is connected to the antenna through transmission line. Because there is a significant loss of power during transmission. So output power is not necessarily the final value. What power does antenna receive and how it generates the pattern that is very important.

There are thousand factors determining the signal strength.

It is very tough to determine without experimenting in different environments speed, power etc.
Yes, but it's more likely that an antennae with more TRMs (due to larger aperture) has more output power and greater cooling ability due to the larger surface area dissipating heat better. Larger aperture areas also provide more gain, which is another important factor. The French guy is basically trying to claim that a 1 litre engine is better than a 2 litre engine.
 

BMD

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a tin plate showing what radar actually look like.

View attachment 16668

and no it doe not have 1500 TRM as you claim. It's a rotatable AESA unlike RBE 2 AESA. size is only slightly bigger.
Mock up is unlikely to be a true reflection, the RBE2-AA mock-up only had 898 TRMs. I think the actual figure was 1,422 TRMs. I wouldn't place any stock is figures that end in a '+', like I said, Meteor is quoted at 100+km officially.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Wasn't my assertion, someone else counted them way back.
Your assertion is to say that the prototype and the serial equipment have the same number of T/R modules.

That's just another assertion. Better technology often takes longer to develop.
It's like saying that LCA Tejas is better than Eurofighter because the development takes 30 years

Ermm... that statement is just factually flawed. Power/energy can't be created or destroyed, only changed form one form to another. So of course the power of the reactor is a limiting factor.
Not really if you only need to convert 1% of the power.

Tranche 2s have to have the cooling system upgraded to Tranche 3 standard during the process.
And what about power?

We also know that Citroens, Peugeots and Renaults are shitty biscuit tins with wheels. Even Tata Motors probably makes better cars. Have the Chinese ever knocked off a French car? Nope. Wonder why.
:) :) :)
Peugeot Citröen Manufacturing base in China (for China Market)
DPCA has a manufacturing base comprising three terminal plants in Wuhan and a mechanical components factory in Xiangyang.
Annual production capacity is currently 700,000 vehicles and will rise to more than one million in 2016 when the fourth plant comes on line in Chengdu.
Wuhan 1
Production start-up: 1996 Lines: 3008, 408, C4L, C-Quatre Capacity: 330,000
Wuhan 2
Production start-up: 2009 Lines: 408, C5 and 508 2015 capacity: 220,000
Wuhan 3
Production start-up: 2011 Lines: C-Elysée, 301, 2008 2015 capacity: 2015: 220,000
Chengdu
Production start-up: 2016 Lines: SUV and MPV segments 2015 capacity: 360,000
Xiangyang
Production start-up: 1996 Production: engines with capacities of 1.2l, 1.6l, 1.8l,2.0l, 2.3l; and 5-speed MA/BE mechanical gearboxes 2015 capacity: 1.2 million engines, 540,000 gearboxes.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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The French guy is basically trying to claim that a 1 litre engine is better than a 2 litre engine.
This is possible, for example, if the 2-litre engine is an ordinary diesel without turbo and the 1-litre engine is a petrol engine for a competition motorcycle.

What you're saying is that it's impossible without even looking at the declared performance of the RBE2.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Peugeot Citröen Manufacturing base in China (for China Market)
DPCA has a manufacturing base comprising three terminal plants in Wuhan and a mechanical components factory in Xiangyang.
Annual production capacity is currently 700,000 vehicles and will rise to more than one million in 2016 when the fourth plant comes on line in Chengdu.
Wuhan 1
Production start-up: 1996 Lines: 3008, 408, C4L, C-Quatre Capacity: 330,000
Wuhan 2
Production start-up: 2009 Lines: 408, C5 and 508 2015 capacity: 220,000
Wuhan 3
Production start-up: 2011 Lines: C-Elysée, 301, 2008 2015 capacity: 2015: 220,000
Chengdu
Production start-up: 2016 Lines: SUV and MPV segments 2015 capacity: 360,000
Xiangyang
Production start-up: 1996 Production: engines with capacities of 1.2l, 1.6l, 1.8l,2.0l, 2.3l; and 5-speed MA/BE mechanical gearboxes 2015 capacity: 1.2 million engines, 540,000 gearboxes.
This video may help the analysis.

@BMD
 

BMD

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Dec 4, 2017
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Your assertion is to say that the prototype and the serial equipment have the same number of T/R modules.


It's like saying that LCA Tejas is better than Eurofighter because the development takes 30 years


Not really if you only need to convert 1% of the power.

And what about power?



:) :) :)
Peugeot Citröen Manufacturing base in China (for China Market)
DPCA has a manufacturing base comprising three terminal plants in Wuhan and a mechanical components factory in Xiangyang.
Annual production capacity is currently 700,000 vehicles and will rise to more than one million in 2016 when the fourth plant comes on line in Chengdu.
Wuhan 1
Production start-up: 1996 Lines: 3008, 408, C4L, C-Quatre Capacity: 330,000
Wuhan 2
Production start-up: 2009 Lines: 408, C5 and 508 2015 capacity: 220,000
Wuhan 3
Production start-up: 2011 Lines: C-Elysée, 301, 2008 2015 capacity: 2015: 220,000
Chengdu
Production start-up: 2016 Lines: SUV and MPV segments 2015 capacity: 360,000
Xiangyang
Production start-up: 1996 Production: engines with capacities of 1.2l, 1.6l, 1.8l,2.0l, 2.3l; and 5-speed MA/BE mechanical gearboxes 2015 capacity: 1.2 million engines, 540,000 gearboxes.
No, just pointing out how many the mock-up had.

If an aircraft had been developed by a nation of similar GDP/Capita and experience and took longer, then the assertion pretty much holds. Don't forget, we've been making radars since you were still waving white flags about.

Yes, but that's my point, you can only draw so much power and the Rafale is already under-endowed as regard T/W ratio.

What about power, same power plant each.

Yes, you've latched on to a solid business plan there, a communist regime is exactly the place where unreliable, sub-standard cars tend to thrive, just like Skoda did in the USSR. :) :) :)
This video may help the analysis.

@BMD
Most informative. I always wondered how Peugeots were made.
 
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Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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It would make more sense to believe the main factor that will create the biggest difference will be software rather than hardware.
Thales has 20 years of PESA/AESA airborn radar experience. The other european radar specialist not.
And it takes time to fine tune a radar....
 

BMD

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
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What's ironic is the car that gets beat up is the Ambassador, which is a British design.
So modern Peugeots are made by getting an elephant to beat up a British car from the 1950s. Figures. Imagine how their radars are made.

it was the RBE2AA, the prototyp, made with US made T/R modules.
From 2010 Thales used euroepan T/R modules. More efficient, smaller. You perfectly know that.
Do we?
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
7,808
5,226
India
It's the old Oxford. What the ad suggests is that if you beat a Brit design hard enough it turns French.
I know. The Rafale was in a way beaten out of the Typhoon design, since the Typhoon came earlier under the FEFA program and is based on an older design. The French simply made the Rafale a smaller, lighter, less powerful, but more effective design compared to the Typhoon. And this new radar is the British attempt to make their Oxford more relevant today.
 

BMD

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Dec 4, 2017
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You heard it here first, an elephant sat on a Typhoon and that is how the Rafale was made. An elephant sat on the RBE2 radar and that is how the RBE2-AA was made. After Captor-E comes out, an elephant will sit on both it and a Rafale at the same time and voila, conformal radar.

Presumably with Bugattis they were unable to extract the elephant post 'design' hence why they weigh so much.

The Franco- German stealth fighter will likely be late because they have to wait for a Tempest to dump an elephant on first.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Nov 30, 2017
1,426
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transition.wifeo.com
You heard it here first, an elephant sat on a Typhoon and that is how the Rafale was made. An elephant sat on the RBE2 radar and that is how the RBE2-AA was made. After Captor-E comes out, an elephant will sit on both it and a Rafale at the same time and voila, conformal radar.

Presumably with Bugattis they were unable to extract the elephant post 'design' hence why they weigh so much.

The Franco- German stealth fighter will likely be late because they have to wait for a Tempest to dump an elephant on first.
I don't know what you've been smoking, but it's good stuff.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Kuwait parliament asks why Eurofighter deal is so expensive
Each fighter plane costs $110m for other countries, while in case of Kuwait it’s $321m

Abu Dhabi: Investigations by Kuwait’s permanent parliamentary committee to try the ministers involved in the Eurofighter aircraft deal have reportedly found large-scale misappropriation of state funds in securing a deal for the fighter jets. The probe has currently run into a stalemate over movement restrictions and health protocols that have been imposed in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak, but there are several questions and doubts that have already cropped up over the contentious defence agreement.

Sources familiar with the probe said the deal dating back to September 2015, when Kuwait and Italy signed a memorandum of understanding to purchase 28 Eurofighter jets in a deal valued at 8 billion euros (Dh33 billion).

The source said the value of the deal struck by Kuwait was much higher compared to the value of similar deals signed by Qatar to purchase 24 similar fighters at 5 billion pounds (Dh22.65 billion), while the Saudi Ministry of Defence had also concluded a contract to purchase 72 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft (older generation) worth $8.86 billion (Dh32.58 billion). Oman also concluded a deal to buy 24 Typhoon fighters at a cost of $2.24 billion from the United Kingdom.


Deals with Airbus under scanner

Kuwait in recent years initiated criminal investigations into two large military aircraft deals involving Airbus — $9 billion Eurofighter Typhoon warplanes deal and a contract for 30 Caracal military helicopters costing $1.2 billion.

It has been reported that the price of the fighters reached $110 million per plane in deals entered into by several countries (UK, Austria, Germany, Belgium, Saudi Arabia and Oman), while in case of Kuwait, the price came to $321 million.

In addition to the actual deal, sources have cited reports that the original contract included several appendices for various ancillary facilities: Building a five-star club for use by the fighter pilots and a water desalination station for the fighter base. Contracts for building these facilities have been handed out to a specific local contracting company, even though such contracts are supposed to be offered separately to multiple contractors.

Verifying motives

While sources wondered whether the multiple annexes associated with the main deal, which could have kept the door open for corruption, still exist, they also pointed to the need to investigate the need for these annexes and to verify the motives behind the cancellation of any of these contracts.
In February, Kuwait’s parliament set up a fact-finding panel to probe alleged kickbacks in a deal between Kuwait’s national carrier — Kuwait Airways — and Airbus, with the latter reportedly paying massive fines to settle bribery scandals in January.

The parliament’s decision came after a special debate on allegations that Airbus had paid kickbacks to secure a 25-aircraft deal six years ago.
It also asked the Audit Bureau, Kuwait’s accounting watchdog, to investigate the deal.

Settlement in British court

In 2014, Kuwait Airways Co had ordered 15 Airbus A320neo and ten Airbus A350 aircraft, with delivery beginning last year and continuing until 2021.
Opposition lawmaker Riyadh Al Adasani told the parliament that Kuwait was mentioned in a settlement struck by Airbus in a British court on January 31, along with the names of some Kuwaiti officials and citizens.

Under the settlement, Airbus agreed to pay 3.6 billion euros in fines to Britain, France and the United States to settle corruption probes into some of its aircraft sales.

Days after the settlement, Sri Lanka ordered an investigation into a multi-billion dollar aircraft purchase from Airbus after the deal was named in the settlement.

The former chief of Sri Lankan Airlines, Kapila Chandrasena, was arrested on February 6 for allegedly receiving bribes relating to the deal.

Earlier in February, two senior officials of the Malaysia-based AirAsia stepped aside while authorities probed unusual payments received by the carrier, even as the fallout from the Airbus scandal reverberated across the industry.
 

Bon Plan

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
1,464
564
France
Kuwait parliament asks why Eurofighter deal is so expensive
Each fighter plane costs $110m for other countries, while in case of Kuwait it’s $321m

Abu Dhabi: Investigations by Kuwait’s permanent parliamentary committee to try the ministers involved in the Eurofighter aircraft deal have reportedly found large-scale misappropriation of state funds in securing a deal for the fighter jets. The probe has currently run into a stalemate over movement restrictions and health protocols that have been imposed in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak, but there are several questions and doubts that have already cropped up over the contentious defence agreement.

Sources familiar with the probe said the deal dating back to September 2015, when Kuwait and Italy signed a memorandum of understanding to purchase 28 Eurofighter jets in a deal valued at 8 billion euros (Dh33 billion).

The source said the value of the deal struck by Kuwait was much higher compared to the value of similar deals signed by Qatar to purchase 24 similar fighters at 5 billion pounds (Dh22.65 billion), while the Saudi Ministry of Defence had also concluded a contract to purchase 72 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft (older generation) worth $8.86 billion (Dh32.58 billion). Oman also concluded a deal to buy 24 Typhoon fighters at a cost of $2.24 billion from the United Kingdom.


Deals with Airbus under scanner

Kuwait in recent years initiated criminal investigations into two large military aircraft deals involving Airbus — $9 billion Eurofighter Typhoon warplanes deal and a contract for 30 Caracal military helicopters costing $1.2 billion.

It has been reported that the price of the fighters reached $110 million per plane in deals entered into by several countries (UK, Austria, Germany, Belgium, Saudi Arabia and Oman), while in case of Kuwait, the price came to $321 million.

In addition to the actual deal, sources have cited reports that the original contract included several appendices for various ancillary facilities: Building a five-star club for use by the fighter pilots and a water desalination station for the fighter base. Contracts for building these facilities have been handed out to a specific local contracting company, even though such contracts are supposed to be offered separately to multiple contractors.

Verifying motives

While sources wondered whether the multiple annexes associated with the main deal, which could have kept the door open for corruption, still exist, they also pointed to the need to investigate the need for these annexes and to verify the motives behind the cancellation of any of these contracts.
In February, Kuwait’s parliament set up a fact-finding panel to probe alleged kickbacks in a deal between Kuwait’s national carrier — Kuwait Airways — and Airbus, with the latter reportedly paying massive fines to settle bribery scandals in January.

The parliament’s decision came after a special debate on allegations that Airbus had paid kickbacks to secure a 25-aircraft deal six years ago.
It also asked the Audit Bureau, Kuwait’s accounting watchdog, to investigate the deal.

Settlement in British court

In 2014, Kuwait Airways Co had ordered 15 Airbus A320neo and ten Airbus A350 aircraft, with delivery beginning last year and continuing until 2021.
Opposition lawmaker Riyadh Al Adasani told the parliament that Kuwait was mentioned in a settlement struck by Airbus in a British court on January 31, along with the names of some Kuwaiti officials and citizens.

Under the settlement, Airbus agreed to pay 3.6 billion euros in fines to Britain, France and the United States to settle corruption probes into some of its aircraft sales.

Days after the settlement, Sri Lanka ordered an investigation into a multi-billion dollar aircraft purchase from Airbus after the deal was named in the settlement.

The former chief of Sri Lankan Airlines, Kapila Chandrasena, was arrested on February 6 for allegedly receiving bribes relating to the deal.

Earlier in February, two senior officials of the Malaysia-based AirAsia stepped aside while authorities probed unusual payments received by the carrier, even as the fallout from the Airbus scandal reverberated across the industry.
An elephant deal ?