Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

[spice]

Financement du Rafale F5 : comment la France a fâché les Émirats arabes unis

La France avait proposé aux Émirats arabes unis de participer au développement du Rafale F5 contre un financement du programme. Mais Abu Dhabi s'est retrouvé in fine à payer une facture sans aucun retour technologique. Fin décembre, la rupture a été consommée. Résultat, la France financera seule...

www.latribune.fr

Rafale F5 financing: how France angered the United Arab Emirates​

France had offered the United Arab Emirates a share of the Rafale F5 development costs in exchange for funding the program. However, Abu Dhabi ultimately ended up footing the bill without receiving any technological benefits. The break was finalized at the end of December. As a result, France will finance the Rafale F5 alone as part of the updated military spending law.

The UAE will not finance the Rafale F5​

The crisis has primarily left its mark on the defense budget, which will remain severely constrained despite the upcoming recapitalization of the military programming law (€36 billion). The updated military programming law is scheduled to be examined by the Council of Ministers on April 8th, following its review this week by the Council of State. What crisis are we talking about exactly? The financing of the Rafale F5. At France's request, the UAE was prepared to finance the new standard of the fighter jet until the end of last year, to the tune of €3.5 billion, out of a total cost of approximately €5 billion that, as of the end of December, still remained to be secured.

After several months of deadlock in 2025 regarding the financing of the Rafale F5 fighter jet, Emmanuel Macron's visit to Abu Dhabi was intended to clarify the two countries' expectations for the development of this cutting-edge technology-enhanced program. This was a point of great interest to the Emiratis, who are avid adopters of new technologies. Ultimately, the French president had to listen to the lengthy criticisms of Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed, who was furious about the French proposals on this matter. The meeting between the two heads of state went very badly, as France and the UAE were clearly not on the same page.

To finance the Rafale F5, the Emiratis wanted to be as closely involved as possible in the development of the French fighter jet. The French, for their part, were not prepared to share the secrets of this development, particularly in optronics, after having considered it. Based on this observation and a suspicion of French arrogance, the UAE decided they would not foot the bill without receiving anything in return. Highly irritated by the way this shaky affair was unfolding, Emmanuel Macron relayed his frustration to the Ministry of the Armed Forces, specifically the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) and the Joint Staff (EMA).

"Spreading jam on toast"​

The conclusion of this story is that the Ministry of the Armed Forces must finance this bill alone as part of the updated Military Programming Law (LPM), resulting in what a source within the Ministry explains is "spreading the buck." This clearly means that the financing of the Rafale F5 will be stretched out over time, with deliveries of Rafales upgraded to the F5 standard delayed. This is a long-standing practice within the armed forces to compensate for budget shortfalls.

Emirati funding would have allowed France to reduce the size of its "blanket" (too many programs relative to its budget) and also to confirm certain bets made regarding programmatic cooperation (SCAF, Rafale F5, Eurodrone, etc.) in the preparation of the 2024-2030 Military Programming Law (LPM). For over a month, the war in Iran has largely overshadowed this unfortunate episode, and France's support for the UAE has restored a temporarily damaged trust between the two countries. Several sources interviewed believe that it is also not certain that the UAE will return to the negotiating table to participate in the financing of the Rafale F5 after 2027.

And despite the additional €36 billion compared to the adopted Military Programming Law (€413 billion), this remains too little or insufficient given the new needs that have arisen with international crises. The sample-based model of French armed forces capabilities is crumbling in the face of the harsh reality of high-intensity conflicts, as illustrated by the overuse of MICA air-to-air missiles in the United Arab Emirates. Defined in 2013, the current armed forces structure was established within the framework of a different world, that of a prosperous globalization. History has swept it away. However, according to our information, the recapitalization of the Military Programming Law will not translate into an increase in force size either.

 

[babablacksheep]

Financement du Rafale F5 : comment la France a fâché les Émirats arabes unis

La France avait proposé aux Émirats arabes unis de participer au développement du Rafale F5 contre un financement du programme. Mais Abu Dhabi s'est retrouvé in fine à payer une facture sans aucun retour technologique. Fin décembre, la rupture a été consommée. Résultat, la France financera seule...

www.latribune.fr

Rafale F5 financing: how France angered the United Arab Emirates​

France had offered the United Arab Emirates a share of the Rafale F5 development costs in exchange for funding the program. However, Abu Dhabi ultimately ended up footing the bill without receiving any technological benefits. The break was finalized at the end of December. As a result, France will finance the Rafale F5 alone as part of the updated military spending law.

The UAE will not finance the Rafale F5​

The crisis has primarily left its mark on the defense budget, which will remain severely constrained despite the upcoming recapitalization of the military programming law (€36 billion). The updated military programming law is scheduled to be examined by the Council of Ministers on April 8th, following its review this week by the Council of State. What crisis are we talking about exactly? The financing of the Rafale F5. At France's request, the UAE was prepared to finance the new standard of the fighter jet until the end of last year, to the tune of €3.5 billion, out of a total cost of approximately €5 billion that, as of the end of December, still remained to be secured.

After several months of deadlock in 2025 regarding the financing of the Rafale F5 fighter jet, Emmanuel Macron's visit to Abu Dhabi was intended to clarify the two countries' expectations for the development of this cutting-edge technology-enhanced program. This was a point of great interest to the Emiratis, who are avid adopters of new technologies. Ultimately, the French president had to listen to the lengthy criticisms of Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed, who was furious about the French proposals on this matter. The meeting between the two heads of state went very badly, as France and the UAE were clearly not on the same page.

To finance the Rafale F5, the Emiratis wanted to be as closely involved as possible in the development of the French fighter jet. The French, for their part, were not prepared to share the secrets of this development, particularly in optronics, after having considered it. Based on this observation and a suspicion of French arrogance, the UAE decided they would not foot the bill without receiving anything in return. Highly irritated by the way this shaky affair was unfolding, Emmanuel Macron relayed his frustration to the Ministry of the Armed Forces, specifically the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) and the Joint Staff (EMA).

"Spreading jam on toast"​

The conclusion of this story is that the Ministry of the Armed Forces must finance this bill alone as part of the updated Military Programming Law (LPM), resulting in what a source within the Ministry explains is "spreading the buck." This clearly means that the financing of the Rafale F5 will be stretched out over time, with deliveries of Rafales upgraded to the F5 standard delayed. This is a long-standing practice within the armed forces to compensate for budget shortfalls.

Emirati funding would have allowed France to reduce the size of its "blanket" (too many programs relative to its budget) and also to confirm certain bets made regarding programmatic cooperation (SCAF, Rafale F5, Eurodrone, etc.) in the preparation of the 2024-2030 Military Programming Law (LPM). For over a month, the war in Iran has largely overshadowed this unfortunate episode, and France's support for the UAE has restored a temporarily damaged trust between the two countries. Several sources interviewed believe that it is also not certain that the UAE will return to the negotiating table to participate in the financing of the Rafale F5 after 2027.

And despite the additional €36 billion compared to the adopted Military Programming Law (€413 billion), this remains too little or insufficient given the new needs that have arisen with international crises. The sample-based model of French armed forces capabilities is crumbling in the face of the harsh reality of high-intensity conflicts, as illustrated by the overuse of MICA air-to-air missiles in the United Arab Emirates. Defined in 2013, the current armed forces structure was established within the framework of a different world, that of a prosperous globalization. History has swept it away. However, according to our information, the recapitalization of the Military Programming Law will not translate into an increase in force size either.

And a certain person was arguing in this forum that f5 is confirmed to debut in 2030.
France is not behind at all.

 

[Rajput Lion]

And a certain person was arguing in this forum that f5 is confirmed to debut in 2030.
France is not behind at all.

?? Who said that? F5 is going to be realized from 2033-35. Isn't it a well known fact?

 

[babablacksheep]

?? Who said that? F5 is going to be realized from 2033-35. Isn't it a well known fact?

@randomradio.

 

[lmaoxd]

Im still incredibly wary of the 114 rafale deal. I think we're being taken for a ride right now without any benefits. Especially if we are not given the ability to integrate indigenous weapons on Indian soil without any French involvement.

 

[_Anonymous_]

?? Who said that? F5 is going to be realized from 2033-35. Isn't it a well known fact?

France is going broke very fast. Their neo colonial empire in Africa has dissolved. Their social sector spending has ballooned. Their productivity is falling along with their exports & then there's their dependency on China which they can't increase much for obvious reasons . To top it all comes the energy crises first in Ukraine & now in the ME.

If & when there's a resumption of hostilities with Russia after the current one ends up in s CF , I foresee Russia going up against a NATO minus the US , around the same time China clashes with the US over Taiwan , where in the European theatre , France will have to do the heavy lifting since the armed forces of Germany & UK are in various stages of dysfunction.

Whatever the outcome of that war the economies of all countries involved will go for a toss. While this would be a worldwide phenomenon , some geographies & nations would be disproportionately affected as compared to others. EU falls in the latter category .

It's not as if the government in Paris is unaware of these scenarios , hence the offer to establish a line in India etc which they're making out as a special one time grand concession.

Wonder if our suits in South Block have war gamed such scenarios. Maybe they have but here the system runs them instead of them running the system which means we won't be able to capitalise much or at all on le Francais predicament even if we're aware of it .

That's our tragedy.

 

[randomradio]

?? Who said that? F5 is going to be realized from 2033-35. Isn't it a well known fact?

You have confused that with the Neuron derivative meant for 2033 and hypersonic SEAD meant for 2035.

F5 will enter service in 2030. It takes a few years of real world operations and exercises after service entry to get something like the Neuron operational alongside the jet. The Su-57 faces the same issue.

 

[randomradio]

Financement du Rafale F5 : comment la France a fâché les Émirats arabes unis

La France avait proposé aux Émirats arabes unis de participer au développement du Rafale F5 contre un financement du programme. Mais Abu Dhabi s'est retrouvé in fine à payer une facture sans aucun retour technologique. Fin décembre, la rupture a été consommée. Résultat, la France financera seule...

www.latribune.fr

Rafale F5 financing: how France angered the United Arab Emirates​

France had offered the United Arab Emirates a share of the Rafale F5 development costs in exchange for funding the program. However, Abu Dhabi ultimately ended up footing the bill without receiving any technological benefits. The break was finalized at the end of December. As a result, France will finance the Rafale F5 alone as part of the updated military spending law.

The UAE will not finance the Rafale F5​

The crisis has primarily left its mark on the defense budget, which will remain severely constrained despite the upcoming recapitalization of the military programming law (€36 billion). The updated military programming law is scheduled to be examined by the Council of Ministers on April 8th, following its review this week by the Council of State. What crisis are we talking about exactly? The financing of the Rafale F5. At France's request, the UAE was prepared to finance the new standard of the fighter jet until the end of last year, to the tune of €3.5 billion, out of a total cost of approximately €5 billion that, as of the end of December, still remained to be secured.

After several months of deadlock in 2025 regarding the financing of the Rafale F5 fighter jet, Emmanuel Macron's visit to Abu Dhabi was intended to clarify the two countries' expectations for the development of this cutting-edge technology-enhanced program. This was a point of great interest to the Emiratis, who are avid adopters of new technologies. Ultimately, the French president had to listen to the lengthy criticisms of Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed, who was furious about the French proposals on this matter. The meeting between the two heads of state went very badly, as France and the UAE were clearly not on the same page.

To finance the Rafale F5, the Emiratis wanted to be as closely involved as possible in the development of the French fighter jet. The French, for their part, were not prepared to share the secrets of this development, particularly in optronics, after having considered it. Based on this observation and a suspicion of French arrogance, the UAE decided they would not foot the bill without receiving anything in return. Highly irritated by the way this shaky affair was unfolding, Emmanuel Macron relayed his frustration to the Ministry of the Armed Forces, specifically the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) and the Joint Staff (EMA).

"Spreading jam on toast"​

The conclusion of this story is that the Ministry of the Armed Forces must finance this bill alone as part of the updated Military Programming Law (LPM), resulting in what a source within the Ministry explains is "spreading the buck." This clearly means that the financing of the Rafale F5 will be stretched out over time, with deliveries of Rafales upgraded to the F5 standard delayed. This is a long-standing practice within the armed forces to compensate for budget shortfalls.

Emirati funding would have allowed France to reduce the size of its "blanket" (too many programs relative to its budget) and also to confirm certain bets made regarding programmatic cooperation (SCAF, Rafale F5, Eurodrone, etc.) in the preparation of the 2024-2030 Military Programming Law (LPM). For over a month, the war in Iran has largely overshadowed this unfortunate episode, and France's support for the UAE has restored a temporarily damaged trust between the two countries. Several sources interviewed believe that it is also not certain that the UAE will return to the negotiating table to participate in the financing of the Rafale F5 after 2027.

And despite the additional €36 billion compared to the adopted Military Programming Law (€413 billion), this remains too little or insufficient given the new needs that have arisen with international crises. The sample-based model of French armed forces capabilities is crumbling in the face of the harsh reality of high-intensity conflicts, as illustrated by the overuse of MICA air-to-air missiles in the United Arab Emirates. Defined in 2013, the current armed forces structure was established within the framework of a different world, that of a prosperous globalization. History has swept it away. However, according to our information, the recapitalization of the Military Programming Law will not translate into an increase in force size either.

Pretty stupid of the UAE to expect any actual transfer of sensor technologies for a few billion. Instead they should fund their own R&D via a JV, like we are doing with AMCA's engine.

 

[randomradio]

Lol, I had predicted a Europe-Russia conflict minus the US during the pre-Covid times expected to happen when the US is busy with China. That's when I made the prediction of Russia's massive military modernization.

But no, it won't happen anytime soon. Russia still needs a minimum of 10 years to prepare.

They need an air force almost rivaling the USAF, an undersea fleet equal to that of a collective NATO in order to compensate for its limited surface capabilities, and a new army with a large strategic reserve.

Essentially, they need about 40 SSNs and SSKs each, about 1500 4.5th and 5th gen fighter jets alongside 50+ stealth bombers, 700-800k ground troops with 6000-8000 advanced 3rd and 4th gen battle tanks with an equal or greater number of 3rd gen tanks in storage.

They are in the same boat as India and China in terms of building mass. All three need 10-15 years to become powerful in their respective areas.

The Chinese need 1.5-2x the US' numbers to make up for the tech shortfall, and any war over Taiwan will not be big enough to serve as a distraction for a Russia-Europe war minus the US. Trump's aggressive stance has ended any possibility of the Chinese starting a war over Taiwan before 2029 anyway. For example, Trump quadrupled ammo production last year. And the US will have become way too powerful requiring the Chinese to begin the process of outmatching the US before starting anything. I had always said that if the Taiwan war is delayed to 2030, the Chinese will have to try again in the 2040s, all due to the massive Indo-Pacific restructuring and reorientation the US will have done by then. Not to mention, Taiwan will also have sufficiently militarized by then.

In the meantime, Xi's busy purging Chinese Globalists within the PLA and CMC, so even China is no longer capable of invading Taiwan in just a few years. So, without a US-China conflict, there's nothing for Russia to do in Europe.

In any case, Russia won't start a war with Europe, the Europeans will have to do the honors, if their big plan is to use the war to disrupt current system of governance. And what's funny is Russia's massive militarization has come as a huge surprise to Europe and the US. Even the Chinese.

 

[lmaoxd]

Lol, I had predicted a Europe-Russia conflict minus the US during the pre-Covid times expected to happen when the US is busy with China. That's when I made the prediction of Russia's massive military modernization.

But no, it won't happen anytime soon. Russia still needs a minimum of 10 years to prepare.

They need an air force almost rivaling the USAF, an undersea fleet equal to that of a collective NATO in order to compensate for its limited surface capabilities, and a new army with a large strategic reserve.

Essentially, they need about 40 SSNs and SSKs each, about 1500 4.5th and 5th gen fighter jets alongside 50+ stealth bombers, 700-800k ground troops with 6000-8000 advanced 3rd and 4th gen battle tanks with an equal or greater number of 3rd gen tanks in storage.

They are in the same boat as India and China in terms of building mass. All three need 10-15 years to become powerful in their respective areas.

The Chinese need 1.5-2x the US' numbers to make up for the tech shortfall, and any war over Taiwan will not be big enough to serve as a distraction for a Russia-Europe war minus the US. Trump's aggressive stance has ended any possibility of the Chinese starting a war over Taiwan before 2029 anyway. For example, Trump quadrupled ammo production last year. And the US will have become way too powerful requiring the Chinese to begin the process of outmatching the US before starting anything. I had always said that if the Taiwan war is delayed to 2030, the Chinese will have to try again in the 2040s, all due to the massive Indo-Pacific restructuring and reorientation the US will have done by then. Not to mention, Taiwan will also have sufficiently militarized by then.

In the meantime, Xi's busy purging Chinese Globalists within the PLA and CMC, so even China is no longer capable of invading Taiwan in just a few years. So, without a US-China conflict, there's nothing for Russia to do in Europe.

In any case, Russia won't start a war with Europe, the Europeans will have to do the honors, if their big plan is to use the war to disrupt current system of governance. And what's funny is Russia's massive militarization has come as a huge surprise to Europe and the US. Even the Chinese.

the russians are using the war as an excuse to put a large amount of their economy into military spending. Whether this is sustainable and whether there will be severe consequences to the economy for doing so remains to be seen. China wont let russia fall and India will also keep russia afloat. We both need russia for geopolitical reasons.

As for the war stuff I disagree but the future will show us anyway.

 

[randomradio]

the russians are using the war as an excuse to put a large amount of their economy into military spending. Whether this is sustainable and whether there will be severe consequences to the economy for doing so remains to be seen. China wont let russia fall and India will also keep russia afloat. We both need russia for geopolitical reasons.

The war will only last 2 more years, and their war economy is being funded quite a bit with forex inflows. Once the war is over, the defense budget is likely to drop from 6% of GDP to 4.5%.

And what's interesting is their military is now about the same size as India's, and their currently overpaid salary expenditure is only 10% of the defense budget compared to our 30%. Even lower than 10% if you include their black budget.

I had predicted in 2022 that they will very quickly start building 600 new tanks a year in a very short time, and as of last year, they are already estimated at 500, up from 250 a year before. That's just $600M a year at today's exchange rate, we are currently paying $6.7M per tank. So they are working with a massive overhead at just 6%, and they have found a sustainable way to do it. And dropping down to 4.5% of post-war GDP is completely affordable.

Agree with India and China not letting Russia fail.

As for the war stuff I disagree but the future will show us anyway.

Which point do you disagree with, there are three.
1. WW3 as soon as Taiwan is invaded in a few years.
2. WW3 in the 2040s, Eastern parties requiring overmatch.
3. No invasion, no war, all hot air.

 

[Optimist]

This clearly means that the financing of the Rafale F5 will be stretched out over time, with deliveries of Rafales upgraded to the F5 standard delayed. This is a long-standing practice within the armed forces to compensate for budget shortfalls.

insufficient development money, The same thing happened with the Rafale F1 in 2001, then 2, 3 and F4 which was reduced in capability
Depending how you want to count it, It was 14 or 29 years before it had the capability, that was able to be sold

"The first export sale of the Dassault Rafale was to Egypt in February 2015, which was approximately 29 years after the prototype's first flight in July 1986."

 

[Optimist]

Not only UAE, India isn't nappy either

https://twitter.com/x/status/2041112583357497676

 

[babablacksheep]

Not only UAE, India isn't nappy either

https://twitter.com/x/status/2041112583357497676

That's a misinformation spreading, Pakistani account.

 

[Optimist]

Pick the source you like

Google Search

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The government is reviewing plans to purchase 24 Rafale fighter jets.​

Jakarta (ANTARA) - The Ministry of Defense (Kemhan) confirmed that the option to purchase 24 Rafale fighter jets from France is still under review.

This was stated by the Head of the Defense Information Bureau (Karo Infohan) of the Indonesian Ministry of Defense Secretariat General, Brigadier General Rico Ricardo Sirait, when confirmed by ANTARA in Jakarta, Friday, regarding the plan to purchase 24 Rafale fighter jets.

"Additional options are still being studied by the government," said Rico.

Rico said the review was conducted to ensure the purchase met Indonesia's defense needs.

For this reason, Rico confirmed that until now there has been no new contract between the Indonesian and French governments regarding the addition of 24 Rafales.

As is known, Indonesia and France are reportedly considering a transaction option for 24 Rafael fighter jets. According to information posted by the defense information Instagram account @isds.indonesia , the discussion emerged during a recent meeting between President Prabowo Subianto and French President Emmanuel Macron.

Indonesia itself already has three Rafale aircraft, the result of a purchase contract for 42 aircraft signed by Prabowo Subianto when he was still serving as Minister of Defense.

The 42 aircraft arrived in stages, starting with the first wave of three fighter jets in early 2026.

 

[randomradio]

Pick the source you like

Google Search

Anti-French propaganda and copy-paste links.

Just so you know, Eurasian Times is anti-French and pro-Russian, at least when it comes to defense reporting.

 

[Choice_of _inevitability]

Anti-French propaganda and copy-paste links.

Just so you know, Eurasian Times is anti-French and pro-Russian, at least when it comes to defense reporting.

Eurasian Times is a ckickbait rag and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[randomradio]

Eurasian Times is a ckickbait rag and shouldn't be taken seriously.

For defense, I like the guest writers, and sometimes the main writers are on point about some things.

The anti-French/American desperation reeks of propaganda.

 

[Bon Plan]

Im still incredibly wary of the 114 rafale deal. I think we're being taken for a ride right now without any benefits. Especially if we are not given the ability to integrate indigenous weapons on Indian soil without any French involvement.

There is a huge difference between giving all the software and giving entry ports so as to give the opportunity to integrate new weaponery.

First way is indeed a no way. Second is possible and more than probable.

It is far too sensible to give all the package. just imagine a leak....