Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

Sancho was rigjt all these years. He was damn against Rafale. A European fightet aircraft which can't fire meteor is a waste procurement.
Mainly if you forgot to put the missile under its wings....
to all those who did not like my posts about Op Sindoor, I had told you that IAF may have got its another biggest gallentry award winner. Most likely He/She is Rafale pilot. Skardu was taken out by Rafale and they took out a JF-17 using MICA in that strike. The same pilot was also involved in the action on 7th early morning strikes.
JF-17 ???
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
As the #IndianAirForce moves towards selection of a MRFA finalist later this year
@Dassault_OnAir
& it's partners have quietly put in the pieces with multiple facilities to make #India a 2nd hub for #Rafale production outside of #France .These facilities areSafran Electrical & Power India- dedicated to manufacturing electrical harnesses for CFM LEAP engines and the Dassault Rafale fighter.Safran Aircraft Engine Services India - Based in #Hyderabad , the first such facility for the M88 afterburning turbofan engine outside France.JV between Aerolloy Technologies, a wholly owned subsidiary of #PTCIndustries, and #SafranAircraftEngines -to jointly explore manufacturing of components and materials for military aircraft engines #M88.TATA Dassault MoU for manufacturing the entire fuselage for the fighter jet, marking the first time the Rafale fuselage has been manufactured outside of #France .Dassault Aviation MRO India (DAMROI)- incorporated in India and based in Noida (Uttar Pradesh), is a subsidiary of Dassault Aviation dedicated exclusively to maintenance, repair and overall (MRO) of its military activities.News also indicates that
@Dassault_OnAir
is in talks with numerous possible #Indian partners to shift the production of #Rafale wings to #India .

 
As the #IndianAirForce moves towards selection of a MRFA finalist later this year
@Dassault_OnAir
& it's partners have quietly put in the pieces with multiple facilities to make #India a 2nd hub for #Rafale production outside of #France .These facilities areSafran Electrical & Power India- dedicated to manufacturing electrical harnesses for CFM LEAP engines and the Dassault Rafale fighter.Safran Aircraft Engine Services India - Based in #Hyderabad , the first such facility for the M88 afterburning turbofan engine outside France.JV between Aerolloy Technologies, a wholly owned subsidiary of #PTCIndustries, and #SafranAircraftEngines -to jointly explore manufacturing of components and materials for military aircraft engines #M88.TATA Dassault MoU for manufacturing the entire fuselage for the fighter jet, marking the first time the Rafale fuselage has been manufactured outside of #France .Dassault Aviation MRO India (DAMROI)- incorporated in India and based in Noida (Uttar Pradesh), is a subsidiary of Dassault Aviation dedicated exclusively to maintenance, repair and overall (MRO) of its military activities.News also indicates that
@Dassault_OnAir
is in talks with numerous possible #Indian partners to shift the production of #Rafale wings to #India .


Dunno why he's confused between MRCBF and MRFA.

MRFA is yet to begin, which could happen this year.

Both Russia and France are willing for a GTG though, Su-57 vs Rafale, although it seems the IAF would prefer MRFA only.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ashwin
In the context of the Paris Air Show held last June – and the SINDOOR operation – Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, gave an interview to the French weekly business newspaper Challenges. Here is a translation from the printed newspaper, i.e.: no link. In any case, Challenges.fr is protected by a paywall. Itv by Vincent Lamigeon, defense specialist for the newspaper.


ERIC TRAPPIER, CEO of Dassault Aviation:​

It's always difficult to say we're the best


The loss of a Rafale to Pakistan, the Franco-German-Spanish project for a future combat air system, competition from the F-35... The head of the French aircraft manufacturer takes stock of the current hot topics.
An unfiltered interview.



Challenges: The loss of at least one Rafale by India during the aerial confrontation with Pakistan in early May is raising questions in the defense community. Has the Rafale reached its limits?
Eric Trappier: The Indians haven't communicated, so we don't know exactly what happened.
What we already know is that what the Pakistanis are saying [three Rafales destroyed] is not accurate. On the other hand, when you operate combat aircraft, you are fulfilling a mission. Mission success isn't about having zero losses, it's about achieving your objectives. During World War II, it wasn't said that the Allies lost the war because they lost troops. We'll see if there were losses or not, and if the war aims were achieved. When the truth comes out, some may be surprised. Twenty years after its entry into service, is the Rafale still at the best level? It's always difficult to say that we're the absolute best, but I sincerely believe we're the best at compromise. It's obvious that in an air confrontation against an F-22 [US Air Force air superiority stealth fighter], it's going to be complicated for the Rafale. But if you want a single aircraft capable of air-to-air missions, reconnaissance, air-to-ground strikes, nuclear missions, and being able to embark on an aircraft carrier, I think the Rafale is indeed the best aircraft in the world, better than the F-35 and far better than any Chinese aircraft on the market. It perfectly meets the needs of the French armed forces and the countries that purchased it.


Isn't this "omnirole" character also the Rafale's weakness, good everywhere but better nowhere?
This is the choice the French armed forces made: to no longer have specialized aircraft, but a single aircraft for all missions. The Mirage 2000 was a good aircraft, but many versions were needed to perform all missions: the Mirage 2000D for ground strike, the 2000-5 for air-to-air, the 2000N for nuclear power. The Americans have the means to afford this entire range, with air superiority aircraft like the F-22 and the future F-47, and aircraft for each air-to-ground mission. France, which does not have a comparable military budget, has chosen versatility. It was the right choice: it has a remarkable aircraft.


A study by the French Institute of International Relations, published in January, warned of a technological decline in the non-stealth Rafale, "systematically dominated in air combat" by the F-35, and which could be relegated to the status of a "back-up" in a coalition...
The Rafale's success has made some people jealous; I imagine they're trying to make up for it. The F-35 has a slight advantage because it was designed to be stealthy, which is not the case with the Rafale, since the stealth option was not chosen by the government for budgetary reasons. But there are several limitations. First, stealth is not 360 degrees. As for saying that because you buy the F-35, you'll relegate the French Air Force and Navy to the role of auxiliaries, I'm waiting to see if the French become auxiliaries to the European countries equipped with F-35s...


The F-35 has 666 orders in Europe. With Trump's second term, has Europe understood that it must limit its dependence on American weapons?
I'm like Saint Thomas, I'm asking to see. What is factual is that Denmark, after Trump's threats to annex Greenland, told the Americans: "You're going to invade Greenland, so I'll buy you F-35s." That's still huge! Second observation: Belgium, which hosts the headquarters of the European Commission, announced, in the midst of a trade war with the United States, that it will buy the F-35. I note that even the countries developing the Typhoon (Euroeighter) are ordering the F-35: the United Kingdom, Italy, and Germany.


Spain is missing...
Let's wait and see.


It's depressing...
It's a fact. I don't believe Europeans are buying F-35s because, as very intelligent people in Brussels say, there is a fragmentation of the European supply of combat aircraft, with the Rafale, the Euroeighter, and the Gripen. Europeans buy American aircraft because there is an American preference in Europe. When I say this, everyone smiles, but it's the reality. Our major partners are elsewhere: it's the belt that starts in Egypt, passes through the Middle East and India, and goes all the way to Indonesia. It's thanks to them that we exist, in addition to France, of course.


The SCAF (Future Combat Air System) program launched by Paris, Berlin, and Madrid, which provides for the development of a new fighter, seems stalled. Could it explode in flight?
I think governments are realizing what we once explained to them. Some told them: "There's no problem, it's just Dassault that's bothering us, it'll be resolved." "The reality is that we have an organization that isn't optimal for creating an ambitious demonstrator. There are three of us around the table [Dassault, Airbus Germany, Airbus Spain], and we have the same rights. It's total equality, it's a large federation, but that's not how you create an effective program. When the United States launches the F-47, they don't say, "Half for Lockheed, half for Boeing." They say, "It's Boeing, and you sort it out." And then there's only one decision-maker: the US Department of Defense.


What should be done?
What we're asking is to be the true prime contractor. A prime contractor, in the construction industry, has the right to choose his subcontractors. We don't have that: with the principle of fair return, each state wants the most valuable share of the work, and a burden equal, down to the last millimeter, to that of the others. When I say that, everyone agrees, but we don't draw any conclusions.


Is there a Plan B for the SCAF?
No, there is no Plan B in the long term. There is a Plan B for 2035, with the Rafale F5 and its stealth combat drone, which will make it possible to wait for the future fighter jet. But we can't wait forever: after the Rafale F5 and the UCAV [combat drone], we'll have to follow up with a new fighter.


You're calling for the development of a spaceplane. Why this project?
We can clearly see that the battlefield is moving into space. Some powers could militarize it with defensive as well as offensive capabilities. I therefore propose developing an aircraft, which would be more like a space shuttle, capable of going into space and carrying out a number of missions, and returning.


What missions exactly?
It's up to the operational personnel to tell us what they need. What I can say is that this aircraft would be capable of acting in space, not just observing. /deepl
 
Same source as my previous message: Challenges.fr_June 12-18. Printed version. Author: Vincent Lamigeon.


The Rafale put to the test

The French fighter suffered its first combat loss during India's bombing of Pakistani bases in early May.
Can it still compete with Chinese and American aircraft? An investigation.


For several weeks, a subtle, insidious tune has been floating in the air. Like a slight but persistent doubt about the performance of an aircraft that seemed to have succeeded in everything for ten years. May 7, 2025, 1 a.m.: The Rafale makes its his first war mission under the colors of the Indian Air Force. In retaliation for the Pahalgam attack in Kashmir (26 dead), India launches Operation Sindoor, a series of strikes on terrorist sites and military bases in Pakistan. The Dassault fighter participates in the barrage of fire, along with Sukhoi Su-30s and multiple suicide drones. But a few hours later, it's Pakistan that declares victory: its Chinese-designed J10 aircraft, Islamabad claims, have shot down five Indian aircraft, including three Rafales. Even though only one Rafale appears to have been lost, the news has the effect of a bombshell. New Delhi refuses to comment. This is the original sin, leaving the field open to all hypotheses. One scenario is crystallizing: the Indian aircraft was destroyed by a Chinese PL-15 missile, a long-range weapon carried on the Pakistani Air Force's J-10s.

Despite the total lack of evidence, the defense community is going into overdrive. Some see the episode as evidence of the end of Western military technological supremacy, in the face of now more advanced Chinese equipment. Others are criticizing the Rafale's electronic warfare system, the Spectra, deemed incapable of detecting and jamming the Chinese missile. In the absence of an official reaction from India, Dassault and the French camp remained silent.

A few weeks before the Paris Air Show, the "bad buzz" took hold and has hardly dissipated since. "The first confirmed combat loss of a Rafale casts a shadow over Dassault's recent momentum," analyzed Fabian Hoffmann, a researcher at the University of Oslo and host of the blog Missile Matters, on May 7. This does not mean that the Rafale is a mediocre platform [the Eurowings or the F-16 could have had identical performance], but it highlights its limitations as a fourth-generation aircraft, particularly in terms of survivability." Legitimate questioning? The ramblings of pseudo-specialists Manipulation? While the fog of war remains thick, a month after the operation, some certainties are beginning to emerge. The first, strangely overlooked, is that the Rafales used during Operation Sindoor hit the mark. Satellite images from American specialists Maxar and Planet show that Scalp missiles fired by French aircraft, as well as Russo-Indian BrahMos missiles fired by the Sukhoi, hit at least six Pakistani air bases. The photos highlight very specific impacts on the Nur Khan air base, very close to Islamabad. This strategic site is located 1.5 kilometers from the Strategic Plan Division, the military unit in charge of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal (170 warheads). Craters are also visible on the runways and hangars of the Bholari, Sargodha, and Rahim Yar Khan bases, other major military bases.


"Operational Success"​

As a May 21 note from the British think tank Rusi pointed out, Pakistani air defenses, mostly supplied by China, were therefore unable to protect some of the country's most strategic sites. "Chinese arms manufacturers benefited from a media advantage disproportionate to the tactical or strategic context of the engagement," points out researcher Walter Ladwig, a lecturer at King's College London, in the Rusi note, even referring to an "operational success" for India. The second certainty is the incredible intensity of the air confrontation between India and Pakistan, probably the largest air battle of the 21st century. The operation reportedly involved at least one hundred aircraft, which engaged in long-range combat, each remaining on their own side of the border. In this type of conflict, attrition (the loss rate) is traditionally high, especially in the first few days, when it can reach 5%. The loss of a Rafale is therefore nothing dramatic and can have multiple causes: enemy missiles, friendly fire, or technical problems. "Losing an aircraft in flight while conducting a high-intensity raid is an act of war, nothing more, nothing less," said General Bruno Clermont, former commander of the Istres air base and former advisor to the CEO of Dassault Aviation. "No fighter is invulnerable. No pilot is invulnerable." India also reportedly lost a Su-30 and a MiG-29, two Russian-designed aircraft, without causing a stir comparable to that following the destruction of the Rafale.

These losses are all the more understandable given that India, to avoid an uncontrollable escalation, had been holding on tight.

Delhi had warned Islamabad of its intention to strike. Pakistan's forces were therefore on high alert, with around forty aircraft in flight, according to several sources. India had also imposed "strict rules of engagement" on its troops, which "prohibited launching attacks against Pakistani aircraft or preemptively neutralizing air defense systems," according to the think tank Rusi.


Informational Defeat​

Did India underestimate the will and capabilities of its adversary? Possible. A very reliable source claims that the Meteor long-range air-to-air missiles were not installed on the Rafales used during Operation Sindoor. The Indian Air Force would thus have been deprived of its most formidable weapon in air combat. "It is possible that the Indians underestimated the range of the PL-15 missiles on board the Pakistani aircraft," believes a French pilot. Other sources mention the decisive support of a Pakistani Saab 2000 Erieye radar aircraft, which would have allowed the missiles to be guided beyond their conventional range, thus surprising the Indian pilots. While the causes of the Rafale's loss remain unclear, the way in which the incident was exploited leaves little room for doubt: the affair was the subject of a major information offensive led by China and Pakistan. A French intelligence memo, published on May 19, denounces "pro-Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and pro-Pakistan operations" that exploit the supposed losses of combat aircraft "to target India, but also Dassault Aviation and the French defense industrial and technological base." The memo highlights in particular satirical content shared by the Chinese influencer Brother Hao (16 million followers) on Douyin, the Chinese version of TikTok, and then reposted by hundreds of pro-CCP accounts on X (formerly Twitter). The document also highlights a fake news story launched by the Hong Kong newspaper South China Morning Post about Indonesia's supposed questioning of the purchase of 42 Rafales following the loss of the Indian aircraft. This blatant fake news: Jakarta signed a letter of intent for the acquisition of additional Rafales during Emmanuel Macron's visit on May 28. The Rafale affair therefore looks, above all, like an informational defeat for the Indian side. "The initial silence of Indian military spokespersons created an information vacuum, filled by technically ill-informed and strategically misleading comments," asserts Walter Ladwig in the Rusi think tank note.


"Technological Asymmetry"​

Questions about the capabilities of the French aircraft should not be dismissed out of hand, however. In January, a report by the think tank Ifri (French Institute of International Relations), which is unlikely to have any Chinese or Pakistani connections, caused a stir. Signed by French pilots Adrien Gorremans and Jean-Christophe Noël, it evoked a "clear technological asymmetry" between the Rafale and the F-35 stealth fighter jets, against which "the combat mission is very difficult to achieve given the current state of the sensors." And the authors hammer home the point: "In the event of engagement alongside its Western allies in a high-intensity conflict, the French fighter jet could be restricted to a backup role for fifth-generation fighters, in a two-tiered air coalition." The Rafale as a backup? At Dassault Aviation headquarters in Saint-Cloud, the uppercut is hard to swallow. "I'm waiting to see the French become backups for European countries equipped with F-35s," the group's CEO, Eric Trappier, quips in his interview with Challenges (see page 76), reminding us that stealth, while undeniably useful, is never total. Lockheed Martin's F-35 is, in fact, not invulnerable: several US Air Force aircraft have almost been shot down in recent months by Houthi rebels over Yemen, as revealed by the New York Times on May 12.


Lack of Stealth​

However, the lack of stealth has been identified by Dassault and the French Armaments Agency (DGA) as one of the French fighter's weak points. The successor to the Rafale, the Franco-German-Spanish New Generation Fighter (NGF) of the SCAF (Future Combat Air System) program, will indeed be stealthy, but it is not expected before 2045. To fill the gap, the Ministry of the Armed Forces launched a stealth combat drone program last year, known as the UCAV (Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle), which will accompany the fighter starting in 2033. This aircraft, derived from Dassault's Neuron demonstrator, will carry out the most dangerous missions, including "first entry" into theaters of operation and the suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD).

The Rafale itself will undergo significant developments. Its future F5 standard, scheduled for 2030, will integrate a new radar, a new electronic warfare system, and new optronic sensors.

The engine manufacturer Safran is also offering a beefed-up version of the M88 engine, called the T-Rex, which would increase its thrust from 7.5 to 9 tons. A welcome modernization: having entered service in the early 2000s, the Rafale could, given the pace of progress of the SCAF, still be flying in 2060. /deepl
 
According Americans ( russians, british, swedish......etc host of other contenders) , chinese are spreading canards about rafale.
But americans are not doing any thing to sabotage the deals, they only sink french submarines but are friendly with french aircrafts. 🤡


French intelligence: China used embassies to undermine sales of France’s flagship Rafale fighter jet​





By JOHN LEICESTER
Updated 3:04 AM CDT, July 6, 2025
Share
PARIS (AP) — China deployed its embassies to spread doubts about the performance of French-made Rafale jets after they saw combat in India and Pakistan’s clashes in May, French military and intelligence officials have concluded, implicating Beijing in an effort to hammer the reputation and sales of France’s flagship fighter.

Findings from a French intelligence service seen by The Associated Press say defense attaches in China’s foreign embassies led a charge to undermine Rafale sales, seeking to persuade countries that have already ordered the French-made fighter — notably Indonesia — not to buy more and to encourage other potential buyers to choose Chinese-made planes. The findings were shared with AP by a French military official on condition that the official and the intelligence service not be named..............................................
 
Sometimes it's just a boy telling the truth, as in the parable of "The Emperor's New Clothes'

If the Rafale was half as good as its public relations team, it would indeed be wonderful

1751834293296.png
 
France finally waking up to the fact that the Chinese/Pakistani disinformation campaign impacts them too. Latest Jane's Defense Weekly claims Indian tactics will be studied for decades using X-Guard decoys to fool the Chinkis/Pakistanis into thinking Rafales were shot down.

(Close enough. It was Banshees - which also works for Su30s, etc. But you go ahead and upsell your own systems DA, we don't mind.)
 
On 7th early morning when IAF attacked Pak terror camps, The Chinese were supplying full information to PAF thru the operations room they had in one of the airbases which was struck by Jags on 10th early morning. The Chinese detected the Rafale in the formation and they fired the largest number of PL-15s on Rafales followed by Su-30MKI. The recovery of nearly all PL-15s from Punjab in an area which is close to Bhatinda and Ambala proves it. As I had stated that we did not loose even a single Rafale or SU-30MKI. RUMOURS have it that we lost a Mig-29 in Ramban area in J&K and the pilot was picked up by JKP personal who shifted him to safety. Other than that we lost couple of UAVs.
If Rafale had longer ranged weapons for strike as well as A2A role, things would have been very different. Rafale did a very good job in Skardu by not only destroying that airbase but also by shooting down a JF-17 using MICA. On 7th early morning strikes, PAF lost a total of 6 aircraft to IAF Jets and SAM batteries and that is how this figure of six jets came out. Pakistan reported its own loss of six combat jets as loss of six Indian Jets.
Pakistan again lost jets on 7th night when they tried to attack Pathankot and Udhampur base by sending swarms or drons and Mirage jets doing low level pop up runs behind them. From 8th onwards, PAF did not take to skies.
 
Fron your post :
However, Trappier acknowledged a separate incident involving a Rafale that suffered a technical failure at over 12,000 meters. The event, which did not involve enemy contact or hostile radar, resulted in what has been described as "fracticide", and an investigation into the technical cause is currently underway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
On 7th early morning when IAF attacked Pak terror camps, The Chinese were supplying full information to PAF thru the operations room they had in one of the airbases which was struck by Jags on 10th early morning. The Chinese detected the Rafale in the formation and they fired the largest number of PL-15s on Rafales followed by Su-30MKI. The recovery of nearly all PL-15s from Punjab in an area which is close to Bhatinda and Ambala proves it. As I had stated that we did not loose even a single Rafale or SU-30MKI. RUMOURS have it that we lost a Mig-29 in Ramban area in J&K and the pilot was picked up by JKP personal who shifted him to safety. Other than that we lost couple of UAVs.
If Rafale had longer ranged weapons for strike as well as A2A role, things would have been very different. Rafale did a very good job in Skardu by not only destroying that airbase but also by shooting down a JF-17 using MICA. On 7th early morning strikes, PAF lost a total of 6 aircraft to IAF Jets and SAM batteries and that is how this figure of six jets came out. Pakistan reported its own loss of six combat jets as loss of six Indian Jets.
Pakistan again lost jets on 7th night when they tried to attack Pathankot and Udhampur base by sending swarms or drons and Mirage jets doing low level pop up runs behind them. From 8th onwards, PAF did not take to skies.

Now the Only thing that matters is we Replenish and Restock for the Next Round As soon as possible
 
Now the Only thing that matters is we Replenish and Restock for the Next Round As soon as possible
On 1 July, in the Senate, the Minister of the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, set the record straight. "We have heard a lot of nonsense about the Rafale in the military operations between India and Pakistan. The real feedback we have received from state to state and air force to air force is the demand to be able to quickly replenish ammunition stocks, particularly complex missiles. This is a decisive issue for certain manufacturers," he said.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
 
Now the Only thing that matters is we Replenish and Restock for the Next Round As soon as possible

Peace time is nothing but an "illusion", and India must remain prepared for uncertainty even during periods of relative calm, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh said while hailing the armed forces for the valour they displayed during Operation Sindoor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: STEPHEN COHEN
Fron your post :
However, Trappier acknowledged a separate incident involving a Rafale that suffered a technical failure at over 12,000 meters. The event, which did not involve enemy contact or hostile radar, resulted in what has been described as "fracticide", and an investigation into the technical cause is currently underway.
One Rafale was definitely lost but the cause was not known. We knew that it had defeated all PL-15s. So speculation was that perhaps it was enemy SAM which did it. But this "fratricide" thing that is coming out is even more serious. Last thing I would like to hear is that Su-30 MKI or S-400 shot down Rafale in friendly fire🤦‍♂️
 
Last thing I would like to hear is that Su-30 MKI or S-400 shot down Rafale in friendly fire🤦‍♂️
Yes and it seems to be the case. At 12000 m what else ? It can't be a bird strike.
I think it's more probably S-400 because MKI and rafale pilots know each others, share a lot a procedures ... But with their comrad of S-400 that's not the same play.
Perhaps not S-400 but something else ?
 
On 1 July, in the Senate, the Minister of the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, set the record straight. "We have heard a lot of nonsense about the Rafale in the military operations between India and Pakistan. The real feedback we have received from state to state and air force to air force is the demand to be able to quickly replenish ammunition stocks, particularly complex missiles. This is a decisive issue for certain manufacturers," he said.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

So this means that India is NOT trying to buy any Rafale off the shelf

And we are only asking for Missiles and Bombs

So IAF has no urgency to get back its lost Rafale

By the way if Any Secret deal is made for 1 Rafale, how soon can we get it 🤣
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion