I will go for Rafale over F-15EX.
Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion
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The F-15EX undoubtedl,
F-15has a higher climb rate and better supersonic performance, which gives it an advantage in BVR air combat.
The T/W ratio of the F15 is higher, and its aerodynamic design is more suitable for supersonic performance. All of these are in line with the concept of BVR air combat.
The F15 is a heavy-duty fighter aircraft. It has a larger radar aperture, higher bomb load capacity and fuel capacity, and a larger fuselage space which can provide room for the upgrade of electronic equipment.
The question is How good is SPECTRA as compared to US EW suites
Radars APG series is already well known
Our problem is US love for Pakistan
SPECTRA defeated multiple PL-15s fired at the plane. So it's awesome. EPAWSS is equally good but all US jets are a strict no no for us. Sorry to break the hearts of numerous F-35/F-15EX supporters of this board, but we ain't buying a 'Murican fighter-jet, ever. Period. Mark it.
For 4th gen fighters and Indian landscape AWACS is required, there is no other choice.
AWACS platform will still be required if Rafales F5, F35, AMCA can play the same role.
Reason: You can't mix a non stealth platform AWACS with a AEW on a stealth platform when on a mission inside enemy airspace. Once the 5th gen fighters are inside enemy airspace they will cut the comm and will fly as mini AEW within the enemy territory. The current Op Midnight Hunter had F35 and F22 flying ahead of B2 for scanning and elnit and detection of Iranian AD.
BS!
Because RBE2-XG will be inducted with all the modes and data bases of the AESA, itself inducted with all the PESA ones.
ie mature from the beginning.
Any brand new radar need time to create, fine tune and validate all the modes, one by one. This is why they mainly arrived on market with only limited air to air modes.
best AAM of F15 is AMRAAM.
even D variant is short on range on Meteor, so you're not definitively right.
This is the truth. When everyone talked about loss of 3 Rafale with deep fake images, I was the one who was defending Rafale. My problem with Rafale s not about its capabilities but the very limited weapons choice. Let the truth come out. Rafale went very close to harms way and came out unscheched. But it will not happen every time.
Probably you confused J10 with Tejas. After all, it is the J10 which is the direct copy of Israeli failed fighter jet program Lavi.
HAL is already over burdened with work and orders
Anyways ,
HAL and Dassault Aviation or Safran can never work together again after the bitter experience of Rafale negotiations that lasted 3 years
It is our Good fortune that Mirage 2000 upgradation
could be completed
Uttam isn't designed/being designed with EW capabilities in mind i beleive, XG i think it will have EW/Jamming capabilities. If that's the case XG is miles ahead over Uttam.
XG is going to be really good. The only good equivalents are apg-81, apg-82v(1), captor mk2. And only the mk2 has the GaN radar.
The air package that assisted the strike consisted of F-22 Raptors and F-35 Lightning IIs, which conducted intelligence, surveillance, and escort functions. These fifth-generation stealth attack aircraft provided air dominance and denied interception attempts.
How US Duped Iran’s Air Defense In 'Operation Midnight Hammer': 5 ‘Secret’ American Weapons Used In Massive Tehran Strike
The air package that assisted the strike consisted of F-22 Raptors and F-35 Lightning IIs, which conducted intelligence, surveillance, and escort functions. These fifth-generation stealth attack aircraft provided air dominance and denied interception attempts.www.thedailyjagran.com
How does the world's most advanced aircraft – the F-35 Lightning II – detect and defeat ground-based and airborne threats while using electronic protection, support, and attack capabilities to advance its missions? It has the world's most advanced, fully-integrated electronic warfare (EW) and countermeasures technology – the AN/ASQ-239 system – designed, produced, modernized, and sustained by BAE Systems.
Our AN/ASQ-239 system is a next-generation electronic warfare suite providing offensive and defensive options for the pilot and aircraft to counter current and emerging threats. Its advanced technology optimizes situational awareness while helping to identify, monitor, analyze, and respond to threats. Advanced avionics and sensors provide a real-time, 360º view of the battlespace, maximizing detection ranges and giving pilots evasion, engagement, countermeasure, and jamming options.
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/product/an-asq-239-f-35-ew-countermeasure-system
The F-35's still WIP. It's in IOC stage today. Full capability is expected only by early 2030s. It needs certain upgrades completed before it can handle all the capabilities it's ben designed to do.
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/product/an-asq-239-f-35-ew-countermeasure-system
Rafale F4 can do that too.
It can't be done in its current configuration.
Yes, there is no point then. If you cannot take out a target with 2 or 3 missiles, then the SAM becomes impractical and would require replacement.
If a flight of 24 jets show up and you need to fire 240 missiles to bring them down, you'd need 40 launchers in one place, and that's not realistic. 4-8 launchers are the best you can do. So 72 ready-to-fire missiles, that's then best you can get out of an operational area, that's also the size of the Indian Army's SAM regiment. In reality, it's further divided by 3 and spread out even more. So consistently firing 10 missiles per jet is not realistic.
Then how do you know or sure your opinions are right?
What I asked you is the basic of basics. The most simplest detail when it comes to this subject is the diffrence in band designations.
I'm literally asking you what VIBGYOR means; Violet to Red. And instead of the visible spectrum, I'm asking for the microwave spectrum. My question is at such an elementary level.
If you do not have the absolute most basic amount of knowledge in this subject, then how do you actually have opinions about it.
I find it funny that you think being ignorant is funny.
Even he never said anything about Rafales being shot down.
Rafale doesn't currently have any real anti-radar solution. SmartGlider/Cruiser whatever it is would only come by 2030 on the F5.
F-35 can at least carry HARM, or rely on 4th gens to launch it/AARGM from further back. By the time Rafale gets its first AASF, F-35 would be having an internally-carried AARGM-ER with 2-3x the range & over 3x the speed of the SmartGlider/Cruiser.
Hammer?So if you're gonna just drop anything that goes boom on a radar and call it an ARM, at that point even a dumb bomb is an ARM. What a joke.
Again, SCALP is not an ARM either. It's just a subsonic cruise missile. If you're gonna use subsonic CMs as ARMs (stupid solution, but that's what you've resorted to cuz you can't bring yourself to admit that the French made a mistake*** in not developing a real ARM earlier), the F-35 too can use internally-carried JSM for the same range as SCALP, or JASSM-ER in beast mode to get twice the range of SCALP.
But that would be stupid. Which is why the intended solution for anti-radar role is the AARGM-ER that has the ability to transit rapidly, passively locate emitters & hit them at high terminal speeds. Missiles like SCALP, JSM or JASSM cannot do any of those jobs.
***A mistake which they themselves admit they did:
France to develop anti-radiation munition for Rafale from 2025, finally!
Following the withdrawal of the last Jaguars equipped with the AS37 Martel anti-radiation munition at the end of the 90s, the French air force no longer hasmeta-defense.fr
"...It is precisely the development of this ammunition, called AASF, which has just been announced by the same Ministry of the Armed Forces which judged this need unnecessary, just three years ago, to arm the future Rafale F5, and its Loyal Wingmen combat drone...."
"....At that time, France believed that the Rafale, its SPECTRA self-protection system, and its laser-guided and then GPS-guided precision munitions, will be sufficient to neutralize the few threats of this type that could emerge, while the country was firmly anchored in the period of the benefits of peace, and the reduction in defense credits that it entailed."
ARM has a very different purpose. The reason why the F-35 has to carry an external ARM is 'cause the jet is still a WIP, that's all.
You are pissing on the SCALP, but the Americans use Tomahawk for SEAD. Another fact you didn't know.
MQ-9 is not attritable or expendable.
No, nothing is relative. Expendable and attritable mean the same things. Looks like even Defensenews failed to educate you.
It's not "more expendable." The basic design is "non-expendable."
The difference between expendable and non-expendable is with expendable, the air force is trying to successfully get rid of it.
CCA is cheaper, not "more expendable." The F-35 is not more expendable than the B-2 either.
You're an idiot if you think the forces can publicly lie about their requirements.
That basically means AMCA will be cheaper due to its larger scale. Still defeats your argument.
Lol. Those are not ancillary advantages. Those are actually bragged about as core features.
Pakistan is a far more rational actor than the US, never mind Russia or China. That's what's helped them survive all these years. Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about.
France's requirement is to be able to fight their enemies alone. This is what CdG had decided in the 50s, and this is what France still pursues as a doctrine.
It's also why Rafale has been designed the way it has been.
Nah, it's over for them. Even they realize that.
As Tom Cooper said, if India could attack their core nuclear facilities and C&C without blowback, then it's pointless to discuss further.
We took out their C&C in 3 places and their access tunnel at Kirana. What it means is we can not just prevent them from using nukes, but we can even launch our own nukes at them without expecting a retaliation.
The Chinese backed out. They are not gonna bother us until they deal with the US first. They decided that last year, after the US elections.
What's that go to do with SSNs? France uses theirs to protect their own coasts, as do the Russians and Chinese.
China can operate freely in the South Pacific due to their proximity to the SCS. China cannot operate freely in the IOR.
You keep repeating this, but India is a lot safer than France. It's a credit to our policy, something France and many other countries have failed to achieve.
Explain.
It can, just not to it's full potential. Due to reasons I said above.
Oh and did you notice that they seem to have dropped all those conformal tile arrays from the F5?
Are you seriously taking this as a template for the F5 in 2025?
Oh, yeah? Then kindly explain. How much power would the radars require and how much electricity can the engines generate?
Oh, really? Kindly explain.
Beast mode is giving up on stealth. That's the whole point of it.
Can you explain why the Americans used Tomahawks for SEAD and DEAD?
That's actually what I'm asking you. What gives you the impression that a Rafale was lost to enemy fire based on what the CDS said?
He said 6 jets shot down was a lie. So we know it's much lower than 6. Then why can't it be the Mig-29 or MKI or M2000 or Jaguar or even the Mig-21? Why did you jump straight to Rafale?
The IAF has not revealed any operational details yet.
What you said:
Even against a relatively poor IADS like Pakistan's, SCALP suffered too much attrition. It's just too slow. An enemy radar would turn off & relocate to the next pincode by the time a subsonic turbojet gets there. You need something that flies much, much faster in order to quickly & reliably take out the enemy's active emitters to degrade their IADS before releasing cruise missiles like SCALP or Nirbhay.
That means ideally you need a Ramjet/Scramjet-based solution, and if that's not yet available then you need a solid rocket-based solution like the Rudram-II/III or AARGM-ER. The Rudram-III can cover its 550-km envelope in just around 5-6 minutes while a SCALP would take around half an hour.
Oh, really? So in your esteemed knowledge, you believe that HARMs are actually usable against mobile units? Are you being serious right now?
And how would you use a HARM against a target that's been deliberately designed to seek out and destroy HARMs? When HARM is used, they try and not fly anywhere close to a SPAAG. Did you know that?
What sort of upside world do you live in? Soldiers use rifles against tanks and ATGMs against soldiers in your world too?
What on earth are you talking about? First of all Rudram doesn't exist, and once it shows up it will end up on Rafale. And we were never discussing this in the first place.
You were the one who started talking about slow speed against radars and I brought up the use cases of such slow speed, SCALR, Hammer, SmartGlider, Harop etc. Rudram was never in the discussion, you brought it up for no reason. Hell, you even distanced yourself from your own argument in this very post.
That's called a strawman argument. You brought it up and then you dismissed it. Congratulations.
I'm not, in fact I was the first one who said you need both types of effectors back in post #1035.
Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion
So Why US Navy purchased SH18 Growler when they have F35 ? The drone is used as another bomb truck, potentially a air to air missile truck, another airborne radar for multistatism, for fuel supply, etc.... Gee I dunno..... maybe because USN has more squadrons on carriers than F-35C's? :rolleyes:www.strategicfront.org
You are countering your own post there. You are literally dismissing the SmartGlider as an effective SEAD/DEAD weapon even in 1035.
Dude, do you even comprehend your own words?
Reality: Rudram, SCALP, and SmartGlider will be used against S-400.
You will have to find that post where I said that.
Suffice to say your knowledge about SEAD/DEAD is pretty much the same as your knowledge about the radio spectrum.
Okay, you are a very disingenuous poster. So we can continue this discussion after you have explained the Typhoon EK relative to the Rafale's ESJ. Everything else is meaningless, you have no knowledge about these things at all.
Couldn't help but interject...you should read this thread from the linked post onwards, where our friend @randomradio was arguing with me that AWACS were useless and that all of the AWACS' roles will be performed solely by fighters alone...and not even any future fighter but the existing Rafale itself:
INS Vikrant (IAC1) & INS Vikramaditya - News & Discussions
We are cutting down P8I, Ka31 purchase due to CAPEX strains, we have 0 Minesweepers, Submarine arm is growing ancient, Helicopters is a mess, not enough funds to buy even MALE surveillance platforms and among all this an aircraft carrier. Do we realise that the 26 Fighter Jet procurement will...
Now he's arguing the opposite. You see, there's no point of reference with him. He just likes to argue.
Nope. Already mentioned in post to Screambowl.
The F-35's new radar, not much is known about it yet, it could come very close to AWACS performance, but it's limited by its very small FoV.
And:
Post 493:
I actually spoke about a radar-equipped drone replacing AWACS.
Right now, the USN is working on their own version of NGAD which the E-2D is unlikely to be able to support as an AEW, so even the NGAD will need a radar-equipped drone.
Another point I made:
The current antenna hardware is only suitable against a small number of targets compared to AWACS that can track dozens using high-priority modes.
And I provided the example of the Korean fighter radar that can track 1000 targets in low-priority mode. That's essentially the difference between a fighter radar and a BMD radar. For example, the current F-22 and F-35 radars can only track up to 100 targets in low priority and just 8-12 in high priority. Rafale's PESA could only manage 48 and 8 in high priority. The Korean radar could easily manage 20-40, similar to AWACS.
Funny how my views have been consistent across 3 years whereas you can't make sense of your own posts even from two days ago.
In terms of functionality, fighter radars can come very close to replacing AWACS, but the main drawback is FoV. The F-35's FoV is 120 deg. Rafale's is 150 deg. But both need the support of an external early warning radar that's either carried by drones, for survivability, and now new information tells us radar satellites will do the same.
And Scream argued about the capability being present today, which is not the case with any fighter jet operational today. Hence the example of the upcoming Korean radar.
The difference between you and me is I actually think.
When I pointed out RBE2-XG will be half a generation ahead of Uttam/Virupaksha 'cause of hardware differences, he laughed. So I asked him to provide an explanation. He still hasn't. He just likes making blanket statements without any knowledge to back it up and then attributes his own wrong opinions on others.
We are talking about hardware, not software.
All of existence is.
His conclusions are wrong though. He's attributing the characteristics of the F-15C to the F-15EX.