Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

SUPER RAFALE – Et si la France avait déjà son chasseur de 6e génération ?
SUPER RAFALE - What if France already had its 6th generation fighter?

The Rafale F5 propels Dassault into the 6th generation: on-board AI, networked combat, drones and stealth. Does France already have its aircraft of the future?

While the United States is pumping billions into its NGAD programme and the Europeans are mired in ego battles over the SCAF, France is quietly but surely forging ahead. With successive improvements, the Rafale has made a name for itself in theatres of operation and at international air shows. But with the arrival of the F5 standard, scheduled for 2030, a milestone has been reached. A turning point. One that leads some experts to say that the Rafale, without changing its name, is changing generation.

So let's ask the question straight out: is the Rafale F5 a generation 4.5 fighter, or already a 6G that doesn't know it? One thing is certain: Dassault's “Super Rafale” no longer has much to envy from the promises of futuristic projects. And with good reason: it anticipates them.

Super-Rafale-533x800.png

The brains behind the Super Rafale is the network.

It's not its looks or silhouette that will catapult the Rafale F5 into another era. It's what's inside it. And above all in the head. The aircraft will benefit from a complete overhaul of its combat system, with on-board artificial intelligence, massive on-board data processing, real-time sensor fusion, and above all the ability to network with other manned and unmanned platforms.

In other words, the Rafale F5 no longer fights like an aircraft. It fights as a connected warfare system, capable of taking the initiative, directing the fire of others, and even coordinating a mini-fleet of drones. This principle, ‘collaborative combat’, is one of the pillars of the 6th generation. And Dassault is incorporating it into an aircraft that is already flying.

The icing on the cake: France is also developing its own sovereign ‘combat cloud’, to guarantee the coherence and security of these exchanges in a contested environment. No need to wait for the SCAF: this future is coming with the F5.

AI comes on board, but doesn't take control

As we said, the Rafale F5 will be equipped with artificial intelligence, not to replace the pilot, but to assist him and take the load off his shoulders. Analysis of the tactical situation, automatic detection of threats, prioritisation of targets, management of weapon systems and sensors: these are all tasks that AI will be able to automate or anticipate. This is a first for the French Air Force.

Above all, the F5 is designed from the outset to operate with drones, in particular a militarised version of the Neuron. The idea? To create a complementary duo: the Rafale thinks, the Neuron strikes. The Rafale illuminates, the Neuron attracts missiles. The Rafale observes, the Neuron transmits. This is exactly what the F-35 does with its loyal wingmen. Except that here, it's more economical, more flexible and more French.

New engine: the T-Rex project changes the game

An aircraft is only as good as its engine. That's where the T-Rex comes in. Behind this code name: a new engine designed by Safran. More compact, more powerful, calibrated to meet the energy requirements of the F5, which will be carrying ever more electronics, jammers, computers...

This engine will also offer greater efficiency, longer-term super-cruise capability, and improved thermal management. Once again, this is one of the key criteria of the 6G: energy autonomy. The fighter of the future must do more than just fly fast. It must power an electronic arsenal without being detected. That's the challenge we're currently working on.

Not stealthy? No problem: it will be discreet when it needs to be

Some will object: ‘But the Rafale is not stealthy’. That's true, in its airframe. But modern stealth is no longer just about angular shapes. It requires electronic intelligence. And in this respect, the Rafale F5 will be a discreet fortress:
  • New-generation electronic warfare pod
  • MICA NG missiles adapted for discreet carriage
  • Radar and thermal signature reduction
  • Intelligent jamming depending on the situation
The F5 is not an F-117. But it will be invisible when it needs to be, and visible when it decides to be. This balance is in line with French doctrine, which focuses on flexibility and resilience.

A credible timetable, promises kept

At a time when the American NGAD is exploding in cost and the European Tempest/SCAF is bogged down in governance, the Rafale F5 is a solid roadmap.
Dassault is not promising an aircraft for 2045. Delivered in 2030, no later, derived from an aircraft already in service, reliable, certified and maintained. A Rafale F5 will leave the Mérignac production lines with 80% fewer components than a Rafale F3R... but without reinventing the wheel.

What about exports? Can the Super Rafale outperform its rivals?

India, Egypt, Indonesia, the Emirates, Greece, Brazil, Serbia... the list of countries attracted by the Rafale continues to grow. And with the F5, the advantage is growing. The Super Rafale comes between two generations. It fills a gap. Where others are waiting for the SCAF or the NGAD, it will already be ready. And operational.

And that's its strength: it can be delivered, controlled and supported. And it's highly relevant to countries that don't want to wait until 2045 to modernise their fleets.

By 2030, who else can offer an aircraft capable of carrying out autonomous, connected, AI-assisted raids, commanding a squadron of drones, while remaining affordable? No one can. Except perhaps China. And even then.

The Super Rafale, the weapon of the present with the logic of the future

No, the Rafale F5 will not officially be a 6th generation fighter. Its airframe, despite improvements, does not meet the standards of the all-furbo fighter. Its structure is not modular, and it is not part of an SCAF programme.

But yes, the Rafale F5 already embodies 80% of the 6th generation. It anticipates its codes, exploits its doctrines, and makes them operational well before the others!

And above all: it will be ready when the others are still in the mock-up stage, even if it is digital.

Once again, France is proving that it can do things faster, smarter and more strategically. The Super Rafale may well be the last manned fighter in history. But what a finale!
Translation..Yes it's pretty ordinary now and for the next 10 or more years, but we can make it 4.9 gen come 2040. If someone is willing to pay for it.
Oh and FCAS isn't looking good either
 
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Discrete MICA carriage and 80% fewer parts than the F3R are very impressive features.
It's a translation error, but I can't correct it now, you have to read :
A Rafale F5 will come off the production line at Mérignac with 80% new components compared with a Rafale F3R... but without reinventing the wheel.
 
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The Question you should ask is, can the update be installed on the Indian aircraft. Or are the current Rafales a dead end.

Yes and no.

F5 will come with 360 deg radar capability and a new engine, so older Rafales are unlikely to get either upgrade even in the future. But they can get all the critical upgrades necessary. Opting for an early upgrade is just a question of money.
 
Yes and no.

F5 will come with 360 deg radar capability and a new engine, so older Rafales are unlikely to get either upgrade even in the future. But they can get all the critical upgrades necessary. Opting for an early upgrade is just a question of money.
The new engine will have the same dimensions as the current M88 and will be interchangeable.
 
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The new engine will have the same dimensions as the current M88 and will be interchangeable.

When we upgrade the F3R (2045), France will begin replacing pre-F5 Rafales with SCAF/Rafale NG. With no one to take the lead, ie, pay for the R&D, the IAF will also have to opt for whatever upgrades are realistic without breaking the bank, like the M2000. An engine replacement won't be realistic.
 
SUPER RAFALE – Et si la France avait déjà son chasseur de 6e génération ?
SUPER RAFALE - What if France already had its 6th generation fighter?

The Rafale F5 propels Dassault into the 6th generation: on-board AI, networked combat, drones and stealth. Does France already have its aircraft of the future?

While the United States is pumping billions into its NGAD programme and the Europeans are mired in ego battles over the SCAF, France is quietly but surely forging ahead. With successive improvements, the Rafale has made a name for itself in theatres of operation and at international air shows. But with the arrival of the F5 standard, scheduled for 2030, a milestone has been reached. A turning point. One that leads some experts to say that the Rafale, without changing its name, is changing generation.

So let's ask the question straight out: is the Rafale F5 a generation 4.5 fighter, or already a 6G that doesn't know it? One thing is certain: Dassault's “Super Rafale” no longer has much to envy from the promises of futuristic projects. And with good reason: it anticipates them.

Super-Rafale-533x800.png

The brains behind the Super Rafale is the network.

It's not its looks or silhouette that will catapult the Rafale F5 into another era. It's what's inside it. And above all in the head. The aircraft will benefit from a complete overhaul of its combat system, with on-board artificial intelligence, massive on-board data processing, real-time sensor fusion, and above all the ability to network with other manned and unmanned platforms.

In other words, the Rafale F5 no longer fights like an aircraft. It fights as a connected warfare system, capable of taking the initiative, directing the fire of others, and even coordinating a mini-fleet of drones. This principle, ‘collaborative combat’, is one of the pillars of the 6th generation. And Dassault is incorporating it into an aircraft that is already flying.

The icing on the cake: France is also developing its own sovereign ‘combat cloud’, to guarantee the coherence and security of these exchanges in a contested environment. No need to wait for the SCAF: this future is coming with the F5.

AI comes on board, but doesn't take control

As we said, the Rafale F5 will be equipped with artificial intelligence, not to replace the pilot, but to assist him and take the load off his shoulders. Analysis of the tactical situation, automatic detection of threats, prioritisation of targets, management of weapon systems and sensors: these are all tasks that AI will be able to automate or anticipate. This is a first for the French Air Force.

Above all, the F5 is designed from the outset to operate with drones, in particular a militarised version of the Neuron. The idea? To create a complementary duo: the Rafale thinks, the Neuron strikes. The Rafale illuminates, the Neuron attracts missiles. The Rafale observes, the Neuron transmits. This is exactly what the F-35 does with its loyal wingmen. Except that here, it's more economical, more flexible and more French.

New engine: the T-Rex project changes the game

An aircraft is only as good as its engine. That's where the T-Rex comes in. Behind this code name: a new engine designed by Safran. More compact, more powerful, calibrated to meet the energy requirements of the F5, which will be carrying ever more electronics, jammers, computers...

This engine will also offer greater efficiency, longer-term super-cruise capability, and improved thermal management. Once again, this is one of the key criteria of the 6G: energy autonomy. The fighter of the future must do more than just fly fast. It must power an electronic arsenal without being detected. That's the challenge we're currently working on.

Not stealthy? No problem: it will be discreet when it needs to be

Some will object: ‘But the Rafale is not stealthy’. That's true, in its airframe. But modern stealth is no longer just about angular shapes. It requires electronic intelligence. And in this respect, the Rafale F5 will be a discreet fortress:
  • New-generation electronic warfare pod
  • MICA NG missiles adapted for discreet carriage
  • Radar and thermal signature reduction
  • Intelligent jamming depending on the situation
The F5 is not an F-117. But it will be invisible when it needs to be, and visible when it decides to be. This balance is in line with French doctrine, which focuses on flexibility and resilience.

A credible timetable, promises kept

At a time when the American NGAD is exploding in cost and the European Tempest/SCAF is bogged down in governance, the Rafale F5 is a solid roadmap.
Dassault is not promising an aircraft for 2045. Delivered in 2030, no later, derived from an aircraft already in service, reliable, certified and maintained. A Rafale F5 will leave the Mérignac production lines with 80% fewer components than a Rafale F3R... but without reinventing the wheel.

What about exports? Can the Super Rafale outperform its rivals?

India, Egypt, Indonesia, the Emirates, Greece, Brazil, Serbia... the list of countries attracted by the Rafale continues to grow. And with the F5, the advantage is growing. The Super Rafale comes between two generations. It fills a gap. Where others are waiting for the SCAF or the NGAD, it will already be ready. And operational.

And that's its strength: it can be delivered, controlled and supported. And it's highly relevant to countries that don't want to wait until 2045 to modernise their fleets.

By 2030, who else can offer an aircraft capable of carrying out autonomous, connected, AI-assisted raids, commanding a squadron of drones, while remaining affordable? No one can. Except perhaps China. And even then.

The Super Rafale, the weapon of the present with the logic of the future

No, the Rafale F5 will not officially be a 6th generation fighter. Its airframe, despite improvements, does not meet the standards of the all-furbo fighter. Its structure is not modular, and it is not part of an SCAF programme.

But yes, the Rafale F5 already embodies 80% of the 6th generation. It anticipates its codes, exploits its doctrines, and makes them operational well before the others!

And above all: it will be ready when the others are still in the mock-up stage, even if it is digital.

Once again, France is proving that it can do things faster, smarter and more strategically. The Super Rafale may well be the last manned fighter in history. But what a finale!
@randomradio,

You would remember our discussion about ACT on Rafale via frame integrated transmitters versus twin-wingtip pods of MKI. I told you then, the wingtip pods can do better ACT and cross-eye jamming versus canard root mounted Transmitters of Rafale to which you disagreed.

Now Rafale F5 will have a new-gen EW pod to do digital stealth/ACT and other EW related stuff proving what I was trying to convey.

@Parthu

Food for thought for you too;)
 
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IF DA does not share the source codes with us to integrate Indian long range stand off weapons, Rafale will loose market share and SU-30 will defeat it in every market. It is now on French as to what they want to do.

Sir After this conflict will 114 MRFA get a bigger push OR We need More SU 30s with more Brahmos and other types of Missiles like Pralay and Shaurya
 
@randomradio,

You would remember our discussion about ACT on Rafale via frame integrated transmitters versus twin-wingtip pods of MKI. I told you then, the wingtip pods can do better ACT and cross-eye jamming versus canard root mounted Transmitters of Rafale to which you disagreed.

Now Rafale F5 will have a new-gen EW pod to do digital stealth/ACT and other EW related stuff proving what I was trying to convey.

@Parthu

Food for thought for you too;)

That pod seems to be a high-performance system for escort and standoff jamming, not for self-protection. ACT is for self-protection.
 
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That pod seems to be a high-performance system for escort and standoff jamming, not for self-protection. ACT is for self-protection.
As per this:

Not stealthy? No problem: it will be discreet when it needs to be

Some will object: ‘But the Rafale is not stealthy’. That's true, in its airframe. But modern stealth is no longer just about angular shapes. It requires electronic intelligence. And in this respect, the Rafale F5 will be a discreet fortress:
  • New-generation electronic warfare pod
  • MICA NG missiles adapted for discreet carriage
  • Radar and thermal signature reduction
  • Intelligent jamming depending on the situation

The new EW pod is to enhance digital stealth of Rafale or in other words to make it more discreet. Does not sound like Escort Jamming pod to me 'cause such brute jamming technique also announce your presence loud and clear which goes against the crux of the article portion of enhanced discreetness. All the above measures are to increase Rafale's stealth including the next-gen EW pod, me thinks.

@Picdelamirand-oil

Your thoughts on the next-gen EW pod?
 
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As per this:






The new EW pod is to enhance digital stealth of Rafale or in other words to make it more discreet. Does not sound like Escort Jamming pod to me 'cause such brute jamming technique also announce your presence loud and clear which goes against the crux of the article portion of enhanced discreetness. All the above measures are to increase Rafale's stealth including the next-gen EW pod, me thinks.

@Picdelamirand-oil

Your thoughts on the next-gen EW pod?

It depends on where the radar spikes are. Wherever you figure the MKI's radar spikes will be found, you need an emitter there for ACT.

If the radar spikes are from inlets and you only have wingtip jammers, then ACT is unlikely to work.

The article itself is just being general. Or perhaps F5 will have radar spikes at the wingtips and that need correction too. Or it could just be a chin-mounted pod like the TALIOS so it will have nothing to do with ACT.

There's a 3D radar image somewhere on the net that I couldn't find. If you see it, you will know the MKI needs a lot of work to be able to use ACT.
 
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Sir After this conflict will 114 MRFA get a bigger push OR We need More SU 30s with more Brahmos and other types of Missiles like Pralay and Shaurya
Now everything is being expedited and for this additinonal budget sanction of 50K crores has been given to Defense Budget within this financial year. I am sure that from next year onwards we will be spending 3% of our GDP on Defense which at present is just below 2%. so expect an increase of 50% to the defence budget.
 
Now everything is being expedited and for this additinonal budget sanction of 50K crores has been given to Defense Budget within this financial year. I am sure that from next year onwards we will be spending 3% of our GDP on Defense which at present is just below 2%. so expect an increase of 50% to the defence budget.
Hi,which aircraft is currently front runner for mmrca now,I mean after the conflict?still rafale or any other aircraft?
 
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@randomradio,

You would remember our discussion about ACT on Rafale via frame integrated transmitters versus twin-wingtip pods of MKI. I told you then, the wingtip pods can do better ACT and cross-eye jamming versus canard root mounted Transmitters of Rafale to which you disagreed.

Now Rafale F5 will have a new-gen EW pod to do digital stealth/ACT and other EW related stuff proving what I was trying to convey.

@Parthu

Food for thought for you too;)

I stand by what I've said previously.

The effectiveness of ECM (whether it's ACT or any other kind) is dependent on factors outside the control of the targeted aircraft. What is effective against previous-generation AMRAAMs or R77s may not be effective against next-gen PL-15s, Astra Mk-2s or JATMs.

But at the same time, an aircraft with advanced ECM is much better off than one without it. So these are useful upgrades to keep fleets relevant so they can continue to function as second-line aircraft well into the future.

However, it would be a mistake to think that such ECM would allow a plane like Rafale to substitute a real 5th (let alone 6th) gen platform in terms of survivability. You still need airframe stealth for that...which is also why a 4.5 gen is also not the ideal mothership for loyal wingmen either. It's no use having stealthy CCAs if the non-stealthy mothership flying in the rear areas can be targeted & shot at from very long ranges.

But not all Air Forces have the luxury of opting for a 5th gen platform in the near future due to one reason or the other. So stealthy CCAs+non-stealthy motherships is a risk many are gonna HAVE to take. But the mothership in that case need not necessarily be a Rafale.