This plan B has 3 main reasons :
-A back door in case SCAF is a failure.
-To have a potent air dominance solution in the 2035+ because SCAF is already late.
-To have an export solution so as to surf on the Rafale export success.
Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion
- Thread starter Domobran7
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-A back door in case SCAF is a failure.
-To have a potent air dominance solution in the 2035+ because SCAF is already late.
-To have an export solution so as to surf on the Rafale export success.
It was the only way for Dassault to get government funding to keep its design office busy. So it's just a matter of maintaining skills, it's expensive but it's the state that pays.
SCAF will fail only if the French govt wishes it. And with Le Pen gone, I think nothing much will change.
Anyway who will buy this new Rafale NG outside France? All the existing Rafale customers will not. SCAF is the natural successor to the Rafale.
And new markets are unlikely to go for a more expensive variant, especially with cheaper jets available in the form of AMCA and KF-21 B3.
How about merging the tech for amca and SCAF projects.
Amca is envisioned to have 6th gen tech in 5th gen airframe( not big enough or have as much electrical power) in 2035+( same time line as scaf)
Already talk with Safran and rolls happening for next gen engine for amca.
So a large merge for joint development of next gen engine, avionics, data bus, materials, etc, India being more behind in tech can pay more money in terms of share(60-40 or 65-35 split), and after development the technologies can be modified and scaled up/down for respective airframes.
This will help reduce risk, and development time and most importantly lots of cost required.
While we are behind in tech compared to france, but except jet engines, We have created a solid base for rest of the tech needed for future stealth fighters, what we lack more in this field is industry and experience than technological base( except engines, even in that case we have developed DMS4, so while not as solid but base tech is also present)
Again, i'm not talking about merging the entire progam, and then distribute production of parts, like how EF2000's wings are made in one country, engines in another type.
I'm just talking about joint tech development
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Ah, Picdel would love that, but it would defeat our objective of indigenization. Our goal is 90%+. If we bring in the French, it will drop down to 50%, and the program will eventually be led by the French, so all the most important technologies will end up in their control.
A better alternative is to combine the navy's next gen requirement with SCAF. But I guess ADA wants to go it alone here as well. Indigenization is the core requirement.
So the last remaining option is a soft MKIzation of SCAF for Indian use in case the IAF/IN think their existing jets don't provide all the capabilities necessary in the 2060s.
But if the IAF/IN opt for NGAD, NgAD, Su-XX, Mig-41, or GCAP in the 2040s to complement the AMCA, then the French option disappears.
DMS4 is better than any operational nickel-based superalloy in the West. Follow the Kaveri thread for more details. What we are missing is some elements of design and cooling technologies alongside tools for mass production.
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Na, I'm talking about "joint development of technologies" that will go in future stealth jets, not merging programs.
Both country can 100% own the tech that is jointly developed( again I beleive we can do significant contribution in joint tech development not just financial help, like we already have GaN chips, except engines).
Ultimately both countries have goal to develop these technologies and own 100% of them, so why not join hands and reduce time and cost.
JVs don't work that way.
Independent development is later merged into one. Like Brahmos, Russia designs/produces the motor, we design/produce the electronics, then we bring it all together in India.
So India will have its own workshare, France will have its own, and then we exchange stuff. And we both own 50% of the IP in the process, assuming we have invested the same amount.
Or FGFA style, France does all the main work, we contribute the little we can but 50% of the money necessary, and we both own 50%, of just the variant we made, not the entire program. But it means France has developed 60+% of all the tech. One of the reasons FGFA failed was 'cause HAL could only deliver 15% of the actual 50% the IAF expected, so Russia was gonna take our money and their workshare would have been 85% even if ownership was 50-50. Ah, and we won't necessarily have full control of the remaining 85%. We could still end up with just 60 or 70% ToT.
What you are assuming is 100 Indian radar specialists and 100 French radar specialists will congregate in a single location and work together on the same radar, well, that's not gonna happen. Stuff like this happens only during a major war, like WW2. But when money's the prime motive, then no.
France can risk JVs at their level of development, but India cannot. So AMCA's gonna have to be as close to 100% Indian as possible.
Lepen gone ? Not irreversibly made. Wait and see.
SCAF will be so costy (said by Trappier him self) that Rafale will be seen as very affordable. Rafale NG can be built on the very potent weapon system of the legacy Rafale, so nicely studied and with a very strong road map (maybe with bigger antennas for radar), a derated Spectra (because stealthier frame) => 50% of the bird price will be in the same price range. The rest, engines and new frame, are not supposed to rise so much. So Rafale NG may remain an attractive solution.
AMCA, KF21, KAAN... are far from being fully ready and mature as the Rafale weapon system is. It takes 10 years at full speed to have the same perf. Give half this time to Dassault and you will have a Rafale NG.
At an Indian Level, start by merging AMCA and MRCBF !
If not, it will be usefull to have a common engine, or at least a common familiy with 2 differents thrust level for the 2 birds.
The rest (radar, electronic systems) is probably too sensitive to share technology.
She will have to waste time fighting a court case instead of campaigning. And people will be confused due to lack of stable leadership.
I'd definitely like to see France develop a true next gen jet beyond NGAD. Rafale NG seems sufficient for defeating the Su-57. And GCAP's also coming up.
I recall Trappier saying Rafale NG is for 2050. By then these new jets will be mature and even progressing towards their next evolution.
No avionics. Airframe is different already. Only thing left is engine, and we have a competition for that already.
Rafale export:
- UAE: 80
- India: 62
- Egypt: 55
- Indonesia: 42
- Qatar: 36
- Greece: 24
- Croatia: 12
- Serbia: 12
If things go as per plans India would be second behind France if not almost equal numbers in the quantity of Rafales , France possesses .
I believe the IN is upto to some mischief with the TEDBF program which they want to convert into a 5th Gen FA program which in turn means we'd need more 4.5th Gen platforms .
With 26 nos ordered I won't be surprised if the IN goes in for double the qty possibly more if a line is set up by Dassault in India .
If that greedy HAL & babus in DRDO didn't intervene, IN would have get the original 57.
Last court decision is expected in summer 2026. 9 months before election.
Yesterday the N°2 int the party explained he will be in front if she is prevented. So him for President and her for Prime Minister.
Wait. It's not a closed file.
We need an anti radiation missile. A french program is on the drawing board... Why not using Rudram, with (or not) a french electronic ?
A dual sens cooperation.
Would the Russians allow us to fly French fighters off Vikramaditya? I don't think so. Since the days of Admiral Arun Prakash, the IN had always eyed the Rafale-M as its next carrier-based fighter. The MiG-29K was thrust down our throats by the Russians as a condition for the sale of ex-Gorshkov. The birds were cheap at about $2.5b for 45 airframes (2010 prices)
Note that the MoD press release on the Rafale-M deal makes no mention of the jets being used on the Vikramaditya. The cost of making them compatible with its Russian ATC systems would be high.
The point I'm making is that unless the Vikrant-2 is sanctioned and construction well underway, we may not see another batch of Rafale-Ms being bought. The focus now shifts back to the IAF which apparently wants 40 more birds on a fast-track basis rather than waiting for MRFA.
Note that the MoD press release on the Rafale-M deal makes no mention of the jets being used on the Vikramaditya. The cost of making them compatible with its Russian ATC systems would be high.
The point I'm making is that unless the Vikrant-2 is sanctioned and construction well underway, we may not see another batch of Rafale-Ms being bought. The focus now shifts back to the IAF which apparently wants 40 more birds on a fast-track basis rather than waiting for MRFA.