Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

Quelles sont les chances du Rafale en Arabie Saoudite ?
What are the Rafale's chances in Saudi Arabia?
Fabrice Wolf

Summary

  • Saudi Arabia's frustration over the Typhoon and F-35A
  • No F-22 or F-35A for the Saudi Air Force
  • German opposition prevents purchase of additional Eurofighter Typhoons
  • A request for 54 Rafales formatted to make London and Washington react
  • Real chances for Dassault Aviation's Rafale in Saudi Arabia
  • A twin-engine fighter popular in the Middle East
  • Rafale assembly guaranteed until 2035 and beyond
  • The strong argument for the Rafale F5
  • France's new defence industrial partnership doctrine
  • Conclusion

Is the Rafale in Saudi Arabia possible? A rumour, relayed by well-informed journalists such as Michel Cabirol of latribune.fr, had been circulating for several months. According to this rumour, Riyadh was actively interested in the French fighter, with a possible long-term order for more than 100 aircraft.

According to these sources, the Saudi authorities wanted above all a modern fighter to replace the 81 or so Tornado IDSs and 62 F-15Cs still in service, one that was neither American, and even ITAR-Free to avoid any interference from Washington, and German-free, to use the expression used at the time, so as not to be subject to the vagaries of the Bundestag.

However, until now, there was no indication that official negotiations had begun between Riyadh and Paris on this subject. What's more, Dassault Aviation has never mentioned the possibility, even off the record, unlike other potential buyers such as India (the Indian Navy's 26 Rafale Ms), Serbia, Colombia and Qatar.

In fact, the information relayed by Michel Cabirol this weekend, according to which Riyadh has asked Dassault Aviation for a formal offer for 54 Rafales, is obviously a major development in this dossier.

Saudi Arabia's frustration over the Typhoon and F-35A

The Saudi request is above all a response to the accumulated frustration caused by the difficulties encountered in recent years in acquiring new fighter aircraft from its two traditional partners, the United States and the United Kingdom.

The Saudi Arabian Air Force has never used a French fighter aircraft, and has remained loyal to the United States from the purchase of the first F-86 Sabre in the 1950s to the order for the highly advanced F-15SA in 2000.

Similarly, since the purchase of British BAe Lightning aircraft in the 1960s, Riyadh has been a loyal customer of British industry when it comes to combat aircraft, having even been the only export customer for the Tornado ADV and IDS, and one of only two for the Lightning, and systematically the largest export customer for its aircraft.

Despite these privileged relations with Washington and London, in recent years Riyadh has been unable to modernise its air forces, and in particular to replace the 81 Tornado IDSs and 61 F-15Cs still in service.

No F-22 or F-35A for the Saudi Air Force

The Saudi Air Force had, in fact, wanted to acquire the F-22 as soon as the American 5ᵉ Generation air superiority fighter entered service. However, as in the case of Japan, Washington refused to export its most advanced fighter, in order to protect the advanced technologies it carries.

In the absence of the F-22, Riyadh turned to the F-35A, which could be exported to close allies of the United States. Here again, as in the case of other countries such as the UAE and Thailand, they were refused permission to export the single-engine fighter, billed as the successor to the F-16, on the pretext that the fighter could only be sold to NATO allies and the US inner circle, such as Japan, Australia and South Korea.

This refusal has led to reactions that have sometimes been epidermal, such as the abandonment of negotiations on a $20 billion arms contract for the UAE, and the start of negotiations with China for Thailand.

German opposition prevents the acquisition of additional Eurofighter Typhoons

For its part, Riyadh could still turn to its British partner, from whom it had already purchased 72 Eurofighter Typhoons in the early 2000s. The Saudi contract included an option for 48 new fighters, which would allow the Saudi Air Force to retire the 81 Tornado IDS still in service.

However, following the Saudi intervention in Yemen, and above all the Khashoggi affair, the Saudi opposition journalist murdered by the country's special services in the Istanbul consulate in October 2018, the German Bundestag refused to deliver parts manufactured by German industry to Great Britain for the desired aircraft, effectively blocking the execution of the option.

Despite protests from the UK and Italy, and Berlin's commitment not to oppose Typhoon exports negotiated by its partners, the issue has remained unresolved ever since, with Germany refusing to back down.

To add to Saudi frustration, when Riyadh announced it was ready to join the GCAP 6ᵉ generation fighter programme led by London with Rome and Tokyo, thus without Germany, it was Japan that opposed Saudi Arabia joining the programme, probably to preserve its industrial perimeter and its weight in the programme.

A request for 54 Rafales formatted to make London and Washington react

Today, the Saudi Air Force has no solution other than turning to other partners to modernise its fighter fleet and replace its Tornado and F-15C aircraft.

This is the background to Saudi Arabia's request to France for the delivery of 54 Rafale fighters. The Saudi request may seem self-evident, given that there is no option in the United States or the United Kingdom, and that there is no way of turning to Moscow or Beijing, at the risk of provoking the ire of Washington and its CAATSA legislation.

What's more, the French twin-engine fighter is now the most exported aircraft of its generation in the world, trailing only the F-35 in the overall fighter aircraft market for several years.

However, the formatting of the Saudi offer reveals Riyadh's underlying intention. Indeed, if Saudi Arabia had fully intended to turn to the French fighter to modernise its air force, the request would not have been for 54 aircraft, just enough to equip two squadrons and devote six fighters to pilot training and conversion.

At a time when the Saudi authorities are constantly seeking to develop their own defence industry, the request would very probably have been for a larger number of fighters, more than 100, enough to justify a major industrial partnership and perhaps even local assembly.

Such negotiations would obviously have taken much longer than the few weeks given by Riyadh, which wants an offer from Dassault Aviation by November 10.

In fact, this is clearly a counter-proposal designed to put pressure on London, and by transitive, on Berlin, to allow the option to be exercised, and thus the acquisition of 48 additional Typhoons, but also on Washington.

Indeed, if Riyadh were to turn to the French Rafale, this would pose a direct threat to future British exports, in particular for the future GCAP, for which Saudi Arabia was to be a natural export belt for London.

So is the Rafale just a decoy to get London and Washington to react? It probably is. However, this is a unique opportunity for Dassault Aviation, which has an open channel of negotiation with Riyadh to make its case. And there are many of them.

Real opportunities for Dassault Aviation's Rafale in Saudi Arabia

Never before in recent history has the French defence aeronautics industry been in such a favourable position to convince Saudi Arabia to turn to its fighter aircraft, and perhaps to replace one of the Kingdom's two traditional partners in this field.

And the stakes are high, since with over 400 combat aircraft, all imported, Saudi Arabia is now the world's second largest export market, second only to India, which is also making huge efforts to develop its own defence aeronautics industry.

A twin-engine fighter with a strong following in the Middle East

Firstly, the Rafale is a twin-engine fighter, not a single-engine fighter like its Mirage predecessors. Since the Lightning, the Saudi Air Force has always preferred to acquire twin-engine fighters such as the F-15, the Tornado and the Typhoon. As such, they are one of the only air forces in the Middle East to have shunned the American F-16.

In fact, with the Rafale, and apart from the Mirage 4000 episode which was not supported by Paris, this is the first time that Dassault has had a fighter aircraft that meets overall Saudi requirements, with the performance, range and carrying capacity demanded by the kingdom's air force, especially as the Rafale is reputed to be more capable than the Typhoon for attack missions, which was precisely the mission of the Tornado IDS to be replaced.

What's more, the French fighter is not only the most exported aircraft of its generation, it has also been the best-selling fighter in the Middle East in recent years, outperforming even the F-16 in this theatre over the past 10 years. Egypt (54 Rafales), Qatar (36 fighters) and the United Arab Emirates (80 aircraft) are all using or have acquired Dassault Aviation's flagship.

What's more, Egypt has already announced that it wants to increase its Rafale fleet to 80 fighters with a future order for Rafale F4s, as has Qatar, which is reportedly negotiating with Paris for 26 additional aircraft.

Not only do these orders attest to the quality of the French fighter, they also open up opportunities for operational and, above all, industrial cooperation in the Middle East, of which Saudi Arabia could be the epicentre if the Kingdom were to make the French fighter the successor to its Tornado and F-15C.

Rafale assembly guaranteed until 2035 and beyond

The success of the Rafale, in the Middle East and beyond, has also given the French fighter a rare virtue today. Apart from the American F-35, it is the only modern Western fighter that is operational today, and whose assembly is guaranteed until 2035 by its order book, and probably until 2040, with future orders.

The sustainability of the assembly line, and with it that of the subcontracting chain, is a key factor in the decision to buy a fighter aircraft. It enables additional fighters to be ordered, if necessary, to increase the size of the fleet, or to compensate for attrition, whether operational or not.

What's more, unlike the Typhoon or the F-15, the Rafale fleet is very young overall, since the first export deliveries took place in 2017, while the French air force plans to acquire the fighter until at least 2035, and certainly beyond, if the SCAF programme were to slip.

Lastly, the Rafale has a relatively large number of prospects, including, as already mentioned, some operators wishing to expand their fleets, such as Egypt and Qatar, but also Greece and India.

As a result, the French fighter is now undoubtedly the least risky and most perennial aircraft on the market, including for the Saudi Air Force, while simultaneously being ITAR and German free.


The Rafale F5's sledgehammer argument

In addition to these two already significant advantages, there is another argument that could be described as a sledgehammer: the arrival of the new Rafale F5 standard in 2030. Detailed during the parliamentary debates for the 2024-2030 Military Planning Law, the Rafale F5 standard will represent a key step in the evolution of the French fighter, equipping it with capabilities traditionally found on 5ᵉ and 6ᵉ generation fighters.

As the Rafale F5 and its systems have already been detailed in a number of articles published on this site, here we'll just skim over the key points, such as an evolution towards a system of systems, the arrival of new munitions, and above all the ability to implement and control combat drones.

In addition to the Remote Carrier Expendable airborne UAVs developed by MBDA for the SCAF and Rafale, the 2024-2030 LPM has also provided for the development of a combat UAV derived from the Neuron demonstrator, capable of acting as a Loyal Wingman.

These new operational appendages will enable the Rafale F5 to match 5ᵉ generation fighters such as the F-35 for deep strike missions and above all for the elimination of opposing anti-aircraft defences, taking advantage of the advanced stealth of its UAVs to compensate for its lower stealth.

The Rafale F5 project also gives the fighter programme a medium-term perspective, on which Dassault can effectively communicate, and put itself, in this field, on an equal footing with the Anglo-Saxons, who are traditionally better off in this area than France.


The new French defence industrial partnership doctrine

Finally, Dassault's negotiators can now draw on France's new defence industrial partnership doctrine, which was unveiled covertly a few months ago, but has since been put into practice in an increasingly obvious manner.

Until now, Paris confined itself to its European neighbours when it came to large-scale joint defence programmes, but France's recent disappointments in this area, whether with Germany, the UK or Italy, have led it to consider turning to more distant partners, notably the largest international customers of its defence industry.

This new doctrine now enables French negotiators to meet Saudi expectations for developing the kingdom's defence industry, and even to imagine extensive international cooperation involving Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and even, but this is unlikely, Qatar, in connection with the Rafale.

This cooperation could subsequently evolve towards the development of a new generation regional fighter with the support of the French defence industry, in a cooperation comparable to that currently being negotiated around the Indian AMCA and TEDBF programmes.

So, even if Riyadh cannot join GCAP because of the Japanese veto, nor SCAF because of the very likely German veto, Paris and the French aerospace industry are now in a position to propose a medium- and long-term vision to Riyadh and its close allies.

Conclusion

As we can see, with its 54 fighter jets, and the timeframe given to Dassault to respond, it is very likely that the proposal requested by Saudi Arabia is aimed at getting the Kingdom's traditional partners to react in order to unblock the obstacles currently preventing the acquisition of Typhoons, and perhaps F-35s, for the Saudi Air Force.

So it is certainly far too early to break out the champagne. In fact, no one is doing so.

On the other hand, it is also undeniable that this official Saudi request is enabling Dassault Aviation not only to build an effective offer that will obviously challenge the British Typhoon, but above all to deploy arguments that the European fighter, but also the American fighters that can potentially be exported to Riyadh, such as the F-15EX, cannot match.

In fact, the Saudi door is now slightly ajar to let the Rafale into the country. But with the right arguments, the necessary determination, and a bit of luck, a crack in the door is sometimes enough to move the lines. That's all we can wish for the Rafale sales team, who will certainly be getting little sleep over the coming days.
 
Pourquoi le Rafale F5 sera plus attractif que le F-35 en 2030 et au delà ?
Why will the Rafale F5 be more attractive than the F-35 in 2030 and beyond?
Part 2/2 By Fabrice Wolf 19 November 2023


While the Rafale F5 will be able to draw on new capabilities and performances specific to the aircraft, it will also benefit from a renewed operational, industrial and commercial environment, potentially giving it the upper hand over rival offerings, in particular the Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning II, from 2030.

For almost two decades now, international competitions between the Rafale fighter jet from France's Dassault Aviation and the F-35 from the US company Lockheed-Martin have systematically favoured the latter, to the point where the American aircraft is now becoming a veritable standard for European air forces, to the great displeasure of aircraft manufacturers in Europe.

But the new version of the Rafale, designated the F5, due to enter service from 2030, could well profoundly change the operational and commercial balance of power between these two aircraft for years and decades to come.

In the first part of this article, we looked at two aspects of this evolution: the transformation of the Rafale into an Air Combat System with the F5 version, and the arrival of the Neuron and Remote Carrier combat drones, which will erode the strengths of the F-35A while exacerbating those of the French fighter.

In this second part, we will look at 3 other major areas that will affect this balance of power: the new capabilities and new munitions of the Rafale F5; the emergence of the Rafale Club and a new French commercial and industrial strategy; and finally, the influence of the rising cost of owning the F-35 on future competitions.

3- The Rafale F5's new capabilities and new munitions

In addition to the UAVs themselves, the Rafale F5 will be equipped with new munitions and new capabilities, which will enable it to overcome certain relative weaknesses vis-à-vis the F-35. This is particularly the case in the area of suppression of adversary anti-aircraft defences, commonly referred to by the acronym SEAD which, as we have reported several times since 2018, represented a major gap in the Rafale's operational panoply until now.

Although the composition of this capability, which will be fitted to the Rafale F5, has not yet been officially presented, we can assume that it will be based on the joint use of radar jammers in addition to the aircraft's self-defence systems, to give it the possibility of encompassing other aircraft in its protective bubble, as well as one or more anti-radiation munitions, designed to move up the adversary's radar beam in order to destroy it.

The FMC is intended to replace the SCALP cruise missile currently fitted to the Rafales of the French Air and Space Force and Naval Aviation.
The Rafale F5 will also be designed to deploy the new Franco-British FMC (Future Cruise Missile) and FMAN (Future Anti-Ship Missile) missiles, which will replace the SCALP/Storm Shadow cruise missile and the AM39 Exocet respectively.

These two long-range precision munitions, currently under development, will have advanced features such as stealth and hypersonic speed to challenge modern air defence systems such as jamming and decoy systems, and will give the aircraft highly advanced long-range strike capabilities in the decades to come.

The aircraft will also be fitted with a pod merging the capabilities of the Talios target designation pod and the RECO NG reconnaissance pod into a single piece of equipment, giving the fighter highly accurate tactical air-to-ground, air-to-surface and even air-to-air vision, and thus multiple operational options while remaining in non-emitive mode.

Finally, the Rafale F5 will be designed to operate the new ASN4G nuclear-tipped hypersonic cruise missile, which is to replace the ASMPA in the two squadrons of the French Air and Space Force and the flotillas of the French Navy forming the air component of the French deterrent. However, this capability, although critical for French defence, will probably have very little influence on the international market.

Other munitions and capabilities could be integrated into the Rafale F5 by 2030. These include light precision air-to-ground munitions such as the BAT-120 LG from Thales, as well as medium-range prowler munitions, especially as these light weapons would naturally find their place on board the combat UAVs supporting the aircraft, including Remote Carriers. The BAT-120LG is a light precision gliding bomb suitable for low-intensity theatres to avoid collateral damage, but also for high-intensity engagements to saturate opposing defences.

It will also benefit from the Rafale F4's current arsenal, including the Meteor and MICA NG air-to-air missiles, as well as the highly effective ASSM-propelled glide bombs.

As a result, by 2030, the Rafale F5 will have a comprehensive and very modern operational toolbox, perfectly in line with and even superior in some respects to that offered by the F-35, depriving the latter of one of the key assets on which it built its commercial success.

4- The Rafale Club revolution

The Rafale F5 will therefore be a highly modern, high-performance air combat system that is exceptionally well equipped to meet the challenges of the coming decades. However, the Rafale F3 was able to boast comparable advantages over the F-35A in a number of recent competitions, all of which went in favour of the American aircraft.

Clearly, Dassault Aviation and the French Ministry of Defence have taken full account of the causes of these failures, and intend to rectify them with the Rafale F5, by equipping the aircraft with a discourse and a commercial environment designed to stand up to the American aircraft.

Firstly, it was necessary to come up with a new sales pitch for the F-35. Lockheed-Martin has developed an extremely effective marketing strategy in recent years, presenting not the current performance of the proposed aircraft, but its future performance and capabilities.

And while the timetable and capabilities promised have clearly been far too optimistic to date, this approach has proved highly effective.

For example, during the Dutch competition, the Rafale F3 had to effectively demonstrate its operational capabilities in the face of mere technical and commercial promises from Lockheed-Martin, a good third of which have since not been fulfilled. Similarly, Switzerland based its decision on future promises from Lockheed-Martin, both in terms of budget and performance.

Up until now, France had confined itself to protesting against the US strategy in this area, without much success. With the Rafale F5, it is taking the opposite position.

Not only is it promising future performance and capabilities, but it will also be able to demonstrate that the Rafale has followed the same development paths since it entered service, including for its customers. In other words, the Rafale F5 will be fighting with the same weapons, but with sharper arguments against the F-35A in the years to come.

Above all, at the same time as announcing the new timetable for the Rafale F5, aiming for entry into service in 2030, the French Ministry of Defence announced the creation of a "Club Rafale", an initiative designed to bring together users both to settle questions of maintenance and upgradability, and to influence, or even participate in, the development of new capabilities, or even new standards, for the Rafale. This is not a new strategy, as the success of the Leopard 2 tank was largely based on a similar approach.

But it also represents a profound conceptual revolution in France's approach to the Rafale, making every current and potential user a partner and player in the future of the aircraft and its capabilities.

This new strategy will make it possible to integrate the industrial aeronautical capabilities of Rafale users much more effectively into the aircraft's ecosystem, and is a strong argument in favour of the French fighter over the F-35A and its excessively closed environment in the hands of Lockheed-Martin and Washington.

5- The price argument

Finally, the Rafale F5 will be able to rely on one last strong argument against the F-35A in the years to come: its price. Not that the French aircraft will be cheaper to buy than the Lockheed-Martin fighter.

Since the beginning of this tug-of-war between Lockheed-Martin and Dassault, the two aircraft have systematically operated in a similar price range for the acquisition of the aircraft as well as the systems, munitions and all the services required to operate them.

However, for a number of years now, it has been apparent that the cost of owning the F-35A has not only failed to fall to meet the targets initially set by the US Air Force, but has actually continued to rise, well beyond the rate of inflation alone.

Until now, this drift has been ignored in the equipment competitions in which the fighter has taken part, both because of Lockheed-Martin's well-oiled pitch supported by the US State Department, and because of the obvious short-sightedness, whether intentional or not, of the European, Korean and Australian negotiators on this subject.

However, the subject is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore, including for its main user, the US Air Force, which, without calling into question its attachment to the aircraft, is being forced into major budgetary planning circumnavigations in order to contain the time bomb represented by the aircraft's ownership costs.

And the same will apply on the international stage. Until now, potential customers have been able to feign good faith and ignore the signals in this area, so as to be able to turn to the aircraft offering the most promising technological and operational environment in the making. But this will no longer be the case in the years to come, as the F-35's budgetary shortcomings become increasingly obvious and impossible to ignore, while the promised operational advantages will have been erased, and in some cases far surpassed, by the Rafale F5's new capabilities.

Conclusion

As we have just seen, the arrival of the Rafale F5, and to some extent its mere announcement, will profoundly change the balance of power between the French fighter and its main adversary, the American F-35A. With renewed operational capabilities flirting with the 6ᵉ generation of combat, new-generation appendages and munitions, and a commercial strategy that represents a profound break with French tradition, Dassault Aviation's fighter will, in the years to come, more than match Lockheed-Martin's aircraft in almost every area.

However, the potential results of this strategy are difficult to assess. Indeed, by the time the Rafale F5 enters service, the vast majority of European air forces will already be equipped with the F-35A/B, either partially or fully, making the aircraft a standard that will be very difficult to dislodge within NATO, as well as with the main players in the Western sphere of the Pacific theatre.

Similarly, many of the major air forces in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and South America will already be modernising, and the market for the F5, apart from existing customers or those under negotiation in the short term (Iraq, Serbia and perhaps Colombia spring to mind), will be small, unless a new wave of international tensions leads to a new phase in the densification of the world's air resources.

However, there are still some potentially important alternatives for the new French fighter. Saudi Arabia, for example, will have to replace its Panavia Tornado and F-15 aircraft over the next few years - a total of some 150 aircraft - as will Morocco, which will have to replace its F-5 and F-1 to keep pace with the modernisation of Algerian aircraft. In addition to Colombia, other South American countries such as Peru and Ecuador will also have to modernise their forces.

Finally, in Europe, Hungary will soon have to replace its Gripens, while some F-35 users, such as Denmark and Belgium, whose fleets are small because they are expensive, could consider the French aircraft to increase their weight.

Whatever the case, it seems that the Rafale F5 will, in many respects, be much more than just a new version of Dassault Aviation's jewel in the crown, but a genuine new departure for the aircraft, which could see its operational and commercial horizons radically reshaped for decades to come.

It would be hard to wish for more for the only fighter with exclusively European DNA at the moment.
Without internal weapons bay, airframe signature of Rafale will never match that of F-22/F-35/Su-57/J-20/J-35/AMCA and so on... Maybe Dassault should study internal weapons bay for Rafale(with slightly enlarged airframe) or at least conformal weapons pod. Otherwise all other VLO planes would push Rafale defensive in BVR air-combat, IMO.
 
Without internal weapons bay, airframe signature of Rafale will never match that of F-22/F-35/Su-57/J-20/J-35/AMCA and so on... Maybe Dassault should study internal weapons bay for Rafale(with slightly enlarged airframe) or at least conformal weapons pod. Otherwise all other VLO planes would push Rafale defensive in BVR air-combat, IMO.
The Rafale's electronic stealth is as effective as the F-35's passive stealth and will be even more efficient in the future. The Rafale's survivability is far superior to that of the F-35.
 
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When it has caught up to the Hornet C or E block l , then we'll talk about the F-35. It can't even match the current Hornet C with APG-79 GaN
...Well according to
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The Rafale's electronic stealth is as effective as the F-35's passive stealth and will be even more efficient in the future. The Rafale's survivability is far superior to that of the F-35.
USA is now spending heavy money/R&D on EW. Only a matter of time before F-35 either matches or leaves Rafale's EW/ACT tech behind. Add to that F-35 airframe radar signature is between -30dBsm to -50dBsm(as per some sources) while Rafale is at best between 0.06m2-0.3m2(clean frontal). So, hard to say that Rafale would be more survival than F-35.

Only advantage of Rafale vs F-35 is that it's twin engined fighter and has got insane kinematics/agility. That's about it.
 
USA is now spending heavy money/R&D on EW. Only a matter of time before F-35 either matches or leaves Rafale's EW/ACT tech behind.
This is a field that is more art than science, and one motivated engineer can achieve more than a team of 100 routine engineers. The US won't be able to catch up simply by adding more money. We're between 10 and 15 years ahead of them, and while they're chasing us, we're continuing to move forward and even widen the gap.
Add to that F-35 airframe radar signature is between -30dBsm to -50dBsm(as per some sources) while Rafale is at best between 0.06m2-0.3m2(clean frontal). So, hard to say that Rafale would be more survival than F-35.

The Rafale's signature is 0.06 m2 +/- 0.2 without active cancellation treatments. Revellin Falcoz, who was successively head of the Rafale project, then Technical Director at Dassault and then Vice President at Dassault, reveals in a video that I've posted several times that the signature of the Rafale is that of a sparrow, i.e. 0.0001 m2, which is comparable to the signature of the F-35 that the US reserves for itself and much better than the signature of the F-35 export. What's more, active cancellation evolves at the pace of electronics and not at the pace of metalwork, and makes it possible to manage multistatic radar, whereas passive stealth does not.

Only advantage of Rafale vs F-35 is that it's twin engined fighter and has got insane kinematics/agility. That's about it.
No, the first advantage of the Rafale over the F-35 is that everything the F-35 promises for the future because of the apocalyptic number of unresolved bugs, the Rafale offers today. For example, data fusion, an argument put forward by the F-35 as a discriminator, does not work at all except for the Rafale. Before thinking about catching up with the Rafale on active cancellation, Lockheed would do well to finish developing the TR3 hardware slice, and the Blk 4 software, after changing the engine!!! so that all this can work. It's currently scheduled for 2029, but if I factor in the "F-35 time" that takes us to......2047 :ROFLMAO:
 
This is a field that is more art than science, and one motivated engineer can achieve more than a team of 100 routine engineers. The US won't be able to catch up simply by adding more money. We're between 10 and 15 years ahead of them, and while they're chasing us, we're continuing to move forward and even widen the gap.
EPAWSS is up there with SPECTRA. In fact, as per some sources, it uses GaN modules and that makes it somewhat more advance than SPECTRA. They have ambitious aim too for F-35 Block-4. If they succeed, they're as good as you.
The Rafale's signature is 0.06 m2 +/- 0.2 without active cancellation treatments.
Even if it's 0.06m2 clean frontal, put 4 missiles and it becomes 0.3m2 or more. F-35 can maintain its 0.0001m2 even with 4 AMRAAMS. Rafale can't maintain its 0.06m2 with missiles. More, F-35 has 8.3 tonne internal fuel load and has only one engine, while Rafale has 4.7 tonnes and has two engines. So, drop tanks become must for Rafale. That further accentuates its RCS woes vs F-35.
Revellin Falcoz, who was successively head of the Rafale project, then Technical Director at Dassault and then Vice President at Dassault, reveals in a video that I've posted several times that the signature of the Rafale is that of a sparrow, i.e. 0.0001 m2, which is comparable to the signature of the F-35 that the US reserves for itself and much better than the signature of the F-35 export.
Err... 0.0001m2 or -40dBsm would be RCS of a small insect. Sparrow should be around 0.1m2 or -10dBsm.
What's more, active cancellation evolves at the pace of electronics and not at the pace of metalwork, and makes it possible to manage multistatic radar, whereas passive stealth does not.
There is nothing stopping F-35 to use Active Cancellation though. And when combined with its passive stealth, it becomes a much potent force than Rafale.
No, the first advantage of the Rafale over the F-35 is that everything the F-35 promises for the future because of the apocalyptic number of unresolved bugs, the Rafale offers today. For example, data fusion, an argument put forward by the F-35 as a discriminator, does not work at all except for the Rafale. Before thinking about catching up with the Rafale on active cancellation, Lockheed would do well to finish developing the TR3 hardware slice, and the Blk 4 software, after changing the engine!!! so that all this can work. It's currently scheduled for 2029, but if I factor in the "F-35 time" that takes us to......2047 :ROFLMAO:
Agree. But Uncle Sam would get it working sooner than later. And F-35 is an amazing plane to have. That said, for us(India), Rafale is anyday better.
 
The Rafale's electronic stealth is as effective as the F-35's passive stealth and will be even more efficient in the future. The Rafale's survivability is far superior to that of the F-35.

Possible, but only sometime in the 2030s, with all the new hardware, while the F-35 stagnates.
 
For example, data fusion, an argument put forward by the F-35 as a discriminator, does not work at all except for the Rafale.

Always been the problem with the F-35, all excellent hardware, but nothing works outside the simulator.

after changing the engine!!! so that all this can work.

There may not be an engine change. Just an upgrade.
 
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Yes, an upgrade of the engine core. When you touch the peripheral parts, you can say it's an upgrade, but when you touch the heart, I think it's a change of engine.

Using their parlance, they consider it an upgrade. 'Cause engine change means AETP, whereas their upgrade will see the use of the same F135 nomenclature.

Their original plan was to change the engine itself for Growth Option 2, but it appears they plan on converting the F135 into a variable cycle engine with 3 streams.

 
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France offers its fighter aircraft to Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan

26 November 2023 23:15 (UTC+04:00)
France offers its fighter aircraft to Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan

France offers its Rafale fighters to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, Azernews reports, citing French sources.

According to the publication, the French Dassault Aviation company has been working in this direction for "several months", while Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan have begun to show interest in Rafale fighters.

It was noted in the sources that Uzbekistan can buy up to 24 combat aircraft. At the same time, it is possible that Tashkent will also look at aircraft manufactured in other countries.

Kazakhstan also intends to renew its fleet of fighter jets, but the prospects for the supply of Rafale fighters to this country "seem more distant".
 
La sixième tranche de production du Rafale sera déterminante pour la Marine nationale
The sixth production phase of the Rafale will be decisive for the French Navy
BY LAURENT LAGNEAU - 26 NOVEMBER 2023

When the Military Programming Law [LPM] 2024-30 was being drawn up, the Aéronautique Navale wanted to be able to replace the oldest Rafale M fighter-bombers.

"The Navy was [...] the first to have Rafale aircraft at its disposal. It will logically be the first to lose them through wear and tear", especially as it "has kept them since they were commissioned", as Admiral Pierre Vandier, its former Chief of Staff [CEMS], pointed out in the pages of La Tribune in July 2021. He added: "Our Rafale fleet is being upgraded by retrofitting".

In addition, as he later explained to parliamentarians, the French Navy had to be "vigilant" about the average age of its Rafale Ms, to avoid too great a gap with the aircraft used by the French Air Force and Space Force [AAE]. This "would expose us to fleet community problems", Admiral Vandier pointed out.

In addition, compared with the AAE Rafales, the French Navy's Rafales operate in 'aggressive' environments and are subject to significant mechanical stress during catapulting and landing...

Obviously, given the age of some of its Rafale M aircraft, the French Navy is hoping to be the first to bring into service the new-generation fighter, which, as part of the SCAF [Future Air Combat System] programme, is not expected to be operational until 2040 at the earliest...

However, the 2024-30 LPM has omitted the partial renewal of the Rafale M... Instead, it provides for the development of a Rafale F5, combined with a "loyal wingman" type combat drone (....) and to increase the size of the fighter aircraft fleet to 225 Rafales (including the 41 belonging to the French Navy) by 2035.

More specifically, the AAE should have 137 Rafale B/Cs by 2030. This means that 47 additional aircraft will have to be delivered by Dassault Aviation to the Ministry of Defence between 2030 and 2035. And this despite the fact that the fifth production tranche [42 aircraft, including 12 to replace those sold to Croatia] has still not been notified to the manufacturer.

In any case, a sixth production batch of Rafales is "in the pipeline". This is what the Ministry of Defence said in a reply to a written question from a member of parliament who was concerned about the future format of the Naval Aviation Division.

"The 2024-30 LPM provides for a combat aircraft fleet format of 225 aircraft divided between the Air and Space Forces and the French Navy. To achieve this format, the State is making a major effort to ensure a gradual ramp-up of the Rafale, in line with the retirement of the old fleets, Dassault Aviation's production capacity and the budgets allocated to this investment", the ministry began by pointing out.

Thus, it continued, "the number of Rafales in the French armed forces will continue to increase over the decade, via orders for the 4th, 5th and 6th production phases. These will be built alongside the Rafales ordered for export".

As a reminder, the 4th production tranche was awarded to Dassault Aviation in 2009 [60 aircraft to be delivered from September 2013, editor's note]. The 5th is due to be delivered shortly. As for the 6th, it has yet to be defined... In any case, it will be decisive for what happens next.

"The timetable for the withdrawal from service of the Rafale C [single-seater] and M, which, for the first aircraft, should take place in the middle of the 2030s, will be one of the parameters taken into account in defining the 6th production tranche, the priority of which will be to guarantee a credible airborne nuclear component", the French Ministry of Defence has assured us.
 
Le drone associé au Rafale F5 sera la « pierre angulaire du traitement » des systèmes anti-aériens adverses
The UAV associated with the Rafale F5 will be the "cornerstone of the treatment" of adversary anti-aircraft systems

With the spread of A2/AD [A2/AD] and the return of 'high intensity', the idea of developing a Rafale solely dedicated to electronic warfare, along the lines of the American E/A-18G Growler, is now regularly mooted.

The ability to thwart enemy air defence systems is essential to the credibility of the airborne component of the nuclear deterrent. However, for the Ministry of the Armed Forces, developing a Rafale dedicated to electronic warfare "does not appear necessary to maintain the operational superiority" of the AAE.

This is for the good reason that the Rafale's "self-protection system [SPECTRA] is constantly evolving", giving it an "increasingly robust threat detection and jamming capability adapted to new threats". This is the answer recently given by the Ministry of Defence to a written question from MP Nathalie Da Conceicao Carvalho [RN].

However, the development of SPECTRA does not address the SEAD capability shortfall... This should be made good with the Rafale F5, the development of which has been confirmed by the 2024-30 Military Planning Law [LPM].

"Before the operationalisation of the SCAF [future air combat system], which will be natively adapted to the least permissive environments in 2040, developments to the Rafale and its armament will give our armed forces, by 2030-35, a credible capability to destroy enemy defences", explained the Ministry of Defence.

The Rafale F5 will be a very different aircraft from the current standards [F3R and F4] in that it will have to be able to carry the future ASN4G nuclear-capable missile. But that's not all: it will have to be able to process "huge volumes of data", which will require fibre-optic cabling that the current versions "are not capable of supporting", as General Stéphane Mille, the AAE's Chief of Staff, recently explained.

In addition, and as provided for in the LPM 2024-30, it will be accompanied by a combat drone from the nEUROn programme, led by Dassault Aviation, as part of a European cooperation.

In its response to the MP, the Ministry of Defence states that this combat drone "will be able to act with discretion and lightning speed as an extension of the Rafale F5 to produce decisive effects in a network" and that, "with these characteristics", this aircraft "should be a cornerstone in the treatment of modern medium- and long-range anti-aircraft systems".

In addition, some of the munitions carried by the Rafale F5 will be "capable of destroying air defence systems that are both powerful and mobile".

According to the Ministry, there is talk of developing a version of the Future Anti-Ship Missile/Future Cruise Missile [FMAN/FMC] "suitable for destroying ground-to-air systems". It also mentions "on-board and air-dropped electromagnetic spectrum saturation systems", which "will make it possible to take better account of the need to combat denial-of-access and area-denial systems". Such resources will complement the "air-to-ground armament of the future" [AASF], which is not explicitly mentioned in LPM 2024-30.

Be that as it may, in a "high-intensity conflict" and even if "the air environment will probably remain predominant in the application of these military effects", the Ministry of Defence believes that "the suppression of adversary anti-aircraft defences" must be "considered through a joint and multi-milieu approach in order to be able to take advantage of a wide range of complementary capabilities".
 
Err... 0.0001m2 or -40dBsm would be RCS of a small insect. Sparrow should be around 0.1m2 or -10dBsm.
Experiments of Blacksmithand Mack show considerable RCS values of a duck and a chicken in the range of −9.5 to −13.5 dBsm with electromagnetic wave frequency of 400 MHz [29]. RCS values of three birds — grackle, sparrow, and pigeon tested by X-band radar — are present as −27.8 dBsm, −37.2 dBsm, and −28.2 dBsm

Interference of Radar Detection of Drones by Birds

page 6
 
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Experiments of Blacksmithand Mack show considerable RCS values of a duck and a chicken in the range of −9.5 to −13.5 dBsm with electromagnetic wave frequency of 400 MHz [29]. RCS values of three birds — grackle, sparrow, and pigeon tested by X-band radar — are present as −27.8 dBsm, −37.2 dBsm, and −28.2 dBsm

Interference of Radar Detection of Drones by Birds

page 6
F-35's frontal RCS even without ACT is well beyond that though. Even if ACT works as advertised and makes Rafale -37.2 dBsm, its RCS(from any aspect) won't match that of the F-35. And just imagine what if F-35 gets ACT in Block-4. That could reduce its RCS several magnitudes lower.

Anyways, Rafale is far better fighter than F-35, so I was just playing the devil's advocate, lol;)
 
F-35's frontal RCS even without ACT is well beyond that though. Even if ACT works as advertised and makes Rafale -37.2 dBsm, its RCS(from any aspect) won't match that of the F-35. And just imagine what if F-35 gets ACT in Block-4. That could reduce its RCS several magnitudes lower.

Anyways, Rafale is far better fighter than F-35, so I was just playing the devil's advocate, lol;)
You're under a lot of illusions about the stealth of the F-35. :giggle:
 
You're under a lot of illusions about the stealth of the F-35. :giggle:
According to USAF official, F-35 beats even F-22 in stealth. I don't like F-35 and love Rafale, but let's just call a spade a spade. Rafale can't match the RCS of F-35, thus F-35 will always enjoy superiority over Rafale in that area.