Corvettes of Indian Navy : News and Discussions

Ashwin

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o, with the 8 ships of the NGC project will effectively increase our fleet strength by 1 ship. Looks pretty piecemeal to me.
Which is not piecemeal. The numbers are according to requirement plus one. Not less.
What are they going to equip it with? Nirbhay/ITCM's naval variant isn't ready, LR-LACM is out of question, NASM-MR hasn't been tested yet. What other options exists?
When did we ever wait for programs to finish. P28 is still without SRSAM. Im thinking it will be LRLACM.
Because we order additional units not when the construction is running but when construction has ended. Look at the Kalvari class for example. Why couldn't we order additional units a few years ago? It was pretty clear even then that the P-75I is going to be dragging along for a while.
If its not ordered then you cant take a call on cost.

The Navy is really set on the Kolkata based design aren't they? MF-STAR is being used on 3 different ship classes. DRDO's LR-MFR is likely going to be bigger than the MF-STAR. So, in the future, either the Navy has to give up on the P-15A design or there has to be a version of the LR-MFR that is about the size of the MF-STAR.
These AESA radars are not restricted by size. They can always make it smaller.
 

randomradio

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IN still has 4 Kora class corvettes, 2 Khukri class corvettes & 1 Abhay class corvette in service. That's 7 corvettes to be retired starting say 5-7 years from now. Kamorta class corvettes are likely to continue in service for at least another 2 decades.

So, with the 8 ships of the NGC project will effectively increase our fleet strength by 1 ship. Looks pretty piecemeal to me.

4 Kamorta, 8 NGC, 6 NGMV and 16 ASW-SWC. That's 34 ships.

It was originally 7 NGMV, for a total of 35. But I guess an older corvette, possibly INS Karmuk, will get to stay for a time. It's in the same class as the NGMV.

I still believe that the P-15B could carry a comparable load. There is enough space for it. But for that the Navy has to stop putting RBU-6000s on every new ship. They could place the RBUs elsewhere. Just leave the foredeck free.

Not 64 missiles. We need a whole new ship design. And that's in the works. Well over 120 VLS. Perhaps at least 96 with Brahmos class missiles.

This might be true. Been suspecting the same ever since the Nilgiri class design was made public.

Been the case since the Shivaliks actually.

With 10 Talwar frigates, 10 Shivalik/Nilgiri psuedo-destroyers and 3 Brahmaputra class, we will have 23 frigates out of the sanctioned 24. So we are topped up there.

And we have 4 modern corvettes in operation, with 22 ordered and 8 on the drawing board. So we are set there as well.

At the destroyer end, we have 10 out of the required 15, so a new order of 5 NGDs will be placed soon, although there seems to be interest in ordering 8, so the addditional 3 can replace the Delhi class at the fag end of its career.

It's not a stretch to say we need a 30% expansion of large surface combatants in due time, at least by the time an interest in NGF begins. Then we can have 2 shipyards building 10 each.
 
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Fatalis

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4 Kamorta, 8 NGC, 6 NGMV and 16 ASW-SWC. That's 34 ships.

It was originally 7 NGMV, for a total of 35. But I guess an older corvette, possibly INS Karmuk, will get to stay for a time. It's in the same class as the NGMV.



Not 64 missiles. We need a whole new ship design. And that's in the works. Well over 120 VLS. Perhaps at least 96 with Brahmos class missiles.



Been the case since the Shivaliks actually.

With 10 Talwar frigates, 10 Shivalik/Nilgiri psuedo-destroyers and 3 Brahmaputra class, we will have 23 frigates out of the sanctioned 24. So we are topped up there.

And we have 4 modern corvettes in operation, with 22 ordered and 8 on the drawing board. So we are set there as well.

At the destroyer end, we have 10 out of the required 15, so a new order of 5 NGDs will be placed soon, although there seems to be interest in ordering 8, so the addditional 3 can replace the Delhi class at the fag end of its career.

It's not a stretch to say we need a 30% expansion of large surface combatants in due time, at least by the time an interest in NGF begins. Then we can have 2 shipyards building 10 each.
NGF seems like post 2038 project. We will most probably have 8 P-17A repeat order which will replace 3 Talwar class and 3 Brahmputra class. By 2035, the final number can be around 25 frigates.

Also, I feel like the Navy will go for additional 6 NGMV post the project completion. It will replace the 7 Veer class and 3 Khukri class corvettes.
 

Ashwin

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NGF seems like post 2038 project. We will most probably have 8 P-17A repeat order which will replace 3 Talwar class and 3 Brahmputra class. By 2035, the final number can be around 25 frigates.
Definitely no. They are waiting for RFP, Probably next FY. Navy got DAC clearance last year.

Repeat order of frigate is 3 years away. Yet to get even the AoN.

I think NGD program is even more matured and things are progressing.
 
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Gautam

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4 Kamorta, 8 NGC, 6 NGMV and 16 ASW-SWC. That's 34 ships.
Oh, I got the math wrong then.

So, the no. of Kamorta class stay the same at 4.
16 ASW-SWCs are coming in to replace 1 Abhay class corvette & 7 Veer class corvettes in left service. That's a gain of 8 ships.
6 NGMVs to replace the remaining 3 or 4 Kora class corvettes. That's a gain of 2 or 3 ships.
8 NGCs to replace 2 Khukri class corvettes. The gain is 6 ships.

Total no of corvettes will be 34. The corvette fleet strength will increase by 16 or 17.
Not 64 missiles
Plenty of space in the mid-ship area too. We can go for inclined launchers if under deck space isn't available. We need to develop the LR-LACM fast. The Navy needs domestic alternatives to the Club/Harpoon/Exocet class of missiles.
With 10 Talwar frigates, 10 Shivalik/Nilgiri psuedo-destroyers and 3 Brahmaputra class, we will have 23 frigates out of the sanctioned 24. So we are topped up there.
Should've retired the Brahmaputa class & ordered 3 more Nilgiri. Or they could use the Brahmaputa for training purposes. Or maybe gift those ships to Vietnam.
At the destroyer end, we have 10 out of the required 15, so a new order of 5 NGDs will be placed soon, although there seems to be interest in ordering 8, so the addditional 3 can replace the Delhi class at the fag end of its career.
We have 11 destroyers right now. By the time the NGD starts to enter service Rajput class would have to be retired. Delhi class would reach retirement age by the time all NGDs are in service. That's 8 new ships coming in to replace 6 ships going out. Net gain is 2 ships. Destroyer fleet would be at 13, against a sanctioned strength of 15. Maybe that's why they are saying 8-10 NGDs. 10 NGDs would get the IN to the sanctioned size.
It's not a stretch to say we need a 30% expansion of large surface combatants in due time, at least by the time an interest in NGF begins. Then we can have 2 shipyards building 10 each.
Never understood the sanctioned fleet size business. As I understand, this sanctioned size is the reason Navy gives out piecemeal orders. We should be making sure all our shipyards are pumping out ships as fast as they can. Instead, we often end up idling our shipbuilding capacity.

Right now, MDL, GRSE & CSL are the only shipyards making major surface combatants. HSL makes large auxiliary/support ships, but not combatants. GSL would gain that capacity through the 2 Talwar class they are tasked to build. Similarly, HSL and L&T shipyard should also be given orders of large surface ships. The Navy should do similar handholding with them. We cannot become too dependent on a few shipyards.
Definitely no. They are waiting for RFP, Probably next FY. Navy got DAC clearance last year.
Wait, I thought the NGF design would be based on the NGD design. You know, like the P17A design is based on the P15A/B. So, if the NGD design isn't ready yet how can they start building NGFs?
Repeat order of frigate is 3 years away. Yet to get even the AoN.
We are going to see repeat orders of the P17A? Or will it be P17B? Wonder who will build it. MDL is going to be occupied with the NGD/NGF program so maybe GRSE will get most of the work.
I think NGD program is even more matured and things are progressing.
MDL is planning to build a Rs 3000 crore floating dock at Nhava Sheva. They have already placed an order of Rs 496 crore this quarter. This might be a different floating dock to be stationed at MDL not at Nhava Sheva. MDL at one point wanted to acquire both the ABG shipyard & the Pipavav shipyard. But they backed out once the found out the amount of capex needed to make those shipyards capable of building destroyers.

These developments are linked to the NGD & NGF programs. MDL want to expand their shipbuilding capacity. But expanding in Mumbai is not always feasible given the land prices. Floating docks seem like a good interim solution for now.
 

Ashwin

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Wait, I thought the NGF design would be based on the NGD design. You know, like the P17A design is based on the P15A/B. So, if the NGD design isn't ready yet how can they start building NGFs?
I was talking about progress towards ordering. There is no NGF as such but repeat order of P17A, will be called P17B.

We are going to see repeat orders of the P17A? Or will it be P17B? Wonder who will build it. MDL is going to be occupied with the NGD/NGF program so maybe GRSE will get most of the work.
NGD is now in two phases four each.

P17B will be split between two shipyards just like current order.

These are expectations of both shipyards according to their interactions with navy.Communicated to investors which is subject to change.

These information is from going through investor calls of both shipyards.
 
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randomradio

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NGF seems like post 2038 project. We will most probably have 8 P-17A repeat order which will replace 3 Talwar class and 3 Brahmputra class. By 2035, the final number can be around 25 frigates.

Also, I feel like the Navy will go for additional 6 NGMV post the project completion. It will replace the 7 Veer class and 3 Khukri class corvettes.

Switching straightaway to NGF is a better option, the P-17 has served its purpose. It's all 'cause our main enemy is building bigger ships and we need to match that.
 

Fatalis

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Definitely no. They are waiting for RFP, Probably next FY. Navy got DAC clearance last year.
Which program are you talking about?

the no. of Kamorta class stay the same at 4.
16 ASW-SWCs are coming in to replace 1 Abhay class corvette & 7 Veer class corvettes in left service. That's a gain of 8 ships.
6 NGMVs to replace the remaining 3 or 4 Kora class corvettes. That's a gain of 2 or 3 ships.
8 NGCs to replace 2 Khukri class corvettes. The gain is 6 ships.

Total no of corvettes will be 34. The corvette fleet strength will increase by 16 or 17.
Kora class is not going anywhere till 2032 and from then onwards it will be start getting replaced by NGC. Deal for NGC can be signed around 2026 if the RFP is released by next year.

NGMV are replacment for Khukri class and most of the Veer class excluding the last two which were commissioned around 2002 so they will serve until 2035.

We have 11 destroyers right now. By the time the NGD starts to enter service Rajput class would have to be retired.
All the Rajput class will go out service by 2025. P-15B are the replacement for Rajput class.

Switching straightaway to NGF is a better option, the P-17 has served its purpose. It's all 'cause our main enemy is building bigger ships and we need to match that.
I think P-17A are currently more than adequate for our requirement. Post 2035, Navy can think what capability they want in their NGF by taking hints from their NGD. So, it makes perfect sense to order additional P-17A.
 

randomradio

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Oh, I got the math wrong then.

So, the no. of Kamorta class stay the same at 4.
16 ASW-SWCs are coming in to replace 1 Abhay class corvette & 7 Veer class corvettes in left service. That's a gain of 8 ships.
6 NGMVs to replace the remaining 3 or 4 Kora class corvettes. That's a gain of 2 or 3 ships.
8 NGCs to replace 2 Khukri class corvettes. The gain is 6 ships.

Total no of corvettes will be 34. The corvette fleet strength will increase by 16 or 17.

We actually had 33 corvettes. The induction of new ships was delayed by a lot, hence the fall in numbers. It's basically a carbon copy of the IAF's squadron drawdown. And PLAN's expansion delayed modernisation 'cause we need to draw up new plans.

Should've retired the Brahmaputa class & ordered 3 more Nilgiri. Or they could use the Brahmaputa for training purposes. Or maybe gift those ships to Vietnam.

Brahmaputra served an important purpose from PoV of indigenisation in its earlier class called Godavari.

It was our first fully digital ship. The IN first targeted the float component and then followed that up with indigenous electronics on the follow-on Brahmaputra. It's basically like the LCA Mk1 and Mk1A models. So even today it serves as an important experimental ship.

When these ships head for MLU, it may incorporate some new technologies before they find their way into NGD and NGF.

We have 11 destroyers right now. By the time the NGD starts to enter service Rajput class would have to be retired. Delhi class would reach retirement age by the time all NGDs are in service. That's 8 new ships coming in to replace 6 ships going out. Net gain is 2 ships. Destroyer fleet would be at 13, against a sanctioned strength of 15. Maybe that's why they are saying 8-10 NGDs. 10 NGDs would get the IN to the sanctioned size.

There's no such thing as a net gain. The IN is just catching up with its own sanctioned requirement.

Never understood the sanctioned fleet size business. As I understand, this sanctioned size is the reason Navy gives out piecemeal orders. We should be making sure all our shipyards are pumping out ships as fast as they can. Instead, we often end up idling our shipbuilding capacity.

There are other reasons for piecemeal orders. One, they are not piecemeal, they are big. One only needs to look at similar-sized navies for comparison. Second, due to the need to import some hardware, we can't give massive orders out due to the need to upgrade them before they become outdated. So a batchwise production order with new classes works out for us. The IAF fails in that department, they have to deal with other issues like production viability. Once we achieve full indigenisation, it will get easier to place larger orders and then switch out subsystems midway through production.

The biggest factors are lack of shipyard capability and budget. The IN orders are restricted to the size of their pockets and the capability of the shipyards. Our shipyards are slow and extremely inefficient. Placing a large order means the last few ships will be outdated upon arrival. Generally the first few ships alone start becoming outdated due to the insane delays plaguing our shipbuilding. So the IN prefers spreading out orders amongst different shipyards for larger orders, like the SWC and Nilgiri, budget-willing of course.

At this time, we only have 1 shipyard qualified to build destroyers and 2 for frigates. So the size of the orders are based on that. We may see the NGD expanded to 8 rightaway if a second shipyard receives qualification, very likely GRSE.

Right now, MDL, GRSE & CSL are the only shipyards making major surface combatants. HSL makes large auxiliary/support ships, but not combatants. GSL would gain that capacity through the 2 Talwar class they are tasked to build. Similarly, HSL and L&T shipyard should also be given orders of large surface ships. The Navy should do similar handholding with them. We cannot become too dependent on a few shipyards.

Except MDL and GRSE, the others are not ready yet. L&T is an outlier, let's see what happens with them in the future. They are aiming to build submarines, LHDs and carriers for now.

We need to consolidate the public shipyards into 2 entities, one for the east coast, the other for the west, and then split major orders evenly between them. The public shipyards are holding India back.
 

randomradio

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I think P-17A are currently more than adequate for our requirement. Post 2035, Navy can think what capability they want in their NGF by taking hints from their NGD. So, it makes perfect sense to order additional P-17A.

More like desperation actually. Like the IAF ordering more Mk1A due to Mk2 delays.

If they make it a bit larger, then it's okay. It basically need to be as capable as the P-15B at the very least, in terms of AShM numbers. So at least 7-7.5kt.
 

marich01

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estimated cost of NGD and P17B were

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