Build vs Procure [5th Generation Aircraft]

STEPHEN COHEN

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Right. But I didn't talk about one on one.

With all the posts made above in view, it seems like we are doing fine.
Like randomradio said above, IAF in not ready for a two front war.
Now it all boils down to the probability of India hitting Pakistan and China siding with them during the war.


In case of a conflict, take for example 28th Feb as the latest air skirmish between two 4+ gen. jets with AWACS guiding them,
the fact remains that SU-30s were not able to shoot back as they were busy evading AMRAAMs.
In case of air battle, who sees the enemy first has the highest probability of gaining a kill, on that day, PAF F-16s were not keen on coming close and engaging thereby wasting shit load of AMRAAMs. But, that won't be the case always correct?

What worries me is the fact that we were not able to engage back.

However, with the context of the original question, I agree that we don't have any immediate 5th generation jet in the market that ready for procurement.

Just read that F-35 is coming to India for DEF EXPO, link here.
Not sure if Lockheed Martin is trying to push F-35 to India or not.
Reading all your posts makes me wonder

Whether you are concerned about Feb 27
Or J 20

Because they are two different things.

Feb 27 could have been avoided by simply.having More Planes on CAPs at that point of time

But with limited planes you cannot have 24 hour CAPs

So either we need more MiG 29s for CAPs or
S 400 which will stop enemy Aircraft coming
Close to the border

A Limited Area -- LIMITED.period war does not suit the IAF

It is built and structured for a 3 Day All out
Assault on Pakistan
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Now it all boils down to the probability of India hitting Pakistan and China siding with them during the war.
It's very unlikely for China to interfere in any Indo-Pak war. Rather it's likely for Pak to interfere during a Sino-India war. And a Sino-India war is extremely unlikely for at least a decade since even the Chinese are in the middle of modernisation. They still have to test and validate their new warfighting concepts, alongside their reorganisation reforms. China considers itself to be ready for war only after 2035, because even against India, they still need to cater towards danger from the US/Japan/Australia alliance in the East and Russia in the North. Also India is their lowest priority right now.

the fact remains that SU-30s were not able to shoot back as they were busy evading AMRAAMs.
Not true. MKI couldn't fire back because they were not allowed to. This RoE has since been changed.

Just read that F-35 is coming to India for DEF EXPO, link here.
Not sure if Lockheed Martin is trying to push F-35 to India or not.
Yeah, India is one of their markets of interest for the F-35. It won't meet IAF's requirement of a high performance jet though.
 
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Defc0n

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Reading all your posts makes me wonder

Whether you are concerned about Feb 27
Or J 20

Because they are two different things.

Feb 27 could have been avoided by simply.having More Planes on CAPs at that point of time

But with limited planes you cannot have 24 hour CAPs

So either we need more MiG 29s for CAPs or
S 400 which will stop enemy Aircraft coming
Close to the border

A Limited Area -- LIMITED.period war does not suit the IAF

It is built and structured for a 3 Day All out
Assault on Pakistan

I am worried about the combination of both.
As you said and as I have pointed out in my question, the problem for IAF is numbers.
J-20 is part of the problem, but as suggested by people above, J-20 can be dealt with by current 4+ gen jets that we have. However, China will be a nuisance based on their sheer numerical strength and have advantage over IAF.

That's the exact same area due to which IAF was not having adequate jets to run 24/7 CAP leading to the incident of 28th.

That's what my point was.
 

randomradio

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If we add 114 MMRCA plus 36 Rafale , then
We get 150 Planes
Yep, pretty much.

By the way do you really think , we will.stop
Production of Su 30 s

Then what.will we do at Nasik

LCA is being made at Bangalore

Su 30 and Super Sukhois are the only way to
Get the required numbers
The Nasik line will switch to making MWF. Only Mk1 and Mk1A will be made in Bangalore. HAL is aiming to get another 3 squadrons worth of orders. Then there's some potential for export also. Once the LCA line closes, it can be used to make UAVs and UCAVs, like Ghatak. There's a plan for that SPORT trainer as well.
Well, the first shot was from their maximum range, may they got a chance to come close again while MKIs evading AMRAAMS.
Apparently not.
 

Milspec

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If we add 114 MMRCA plus 36 Rafale , then
We get 150 Planes

By the way do you really think , we will.stop
Production of Su 30 s

Then what.will we do at Nasik

LCA is being made at Bangalore

Su 30 and Super Sukhois are the only way to
Get the required numbers
Run Overhaul and upgrade line of MKI, Set up a new line for ORCA,TEDBF? maybe

Maybe the MRTA? who knows, with FGFA out of the question there is quite a bit of uncertainty on Nashik Plant.
 

Milspec

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Yep, pretty much.



The Nasik line will switch to making MWF. Only Mk1 and Mk1A will be made in Bangalore. HAL is aiming to get another 3 squadrons worth of orders. Then there's some potential for export also. Once the LCA line closes, it can be used to make UAVs and UCAVs, like Ghatak. There's a plan for that SPORT trainer as well.
Nopes. No such plans. LCA and it's single-engine variants are not moving from Banglore.
 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
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If we add 114 MMRCA plus 36 Rafale , then
We get 150 Planes

By the way do you really think , we will.stop
Production of Su 30 s

Then what.will we do at Nasik

LCA is being made at Bangalore

Su 30 and Super Sukhois are the only way to
Get the required numbers
If we end up adding 114 MMRCA and it's made in India, it will most likely be built at HAL, Nashik.
 

Milspec

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Results cannot be that bad (Search for rafale lock on raptor). But F-22 is the true stealth fighter with it's over expensive coating and ludicrous T/W ratio. Possible 'fifth-gen' fighter we can procure in this decade are Su-57 or F-35A. Both are not as good as F-22 in stealth. Su-57 needs phase 2 engine and F-35 does not have the maneuverability. J-20 engine is also suboptimal.

Remember once J-20 turns on its radar it's advantages are gone. The above scenario was with both side's radar on. MKI got a big and capable PESA radar for its job. I did not say J-20 got a lock at 150km. You can't fire BVRs at such range and pray it will hit something. Even the AMRAAMs couldn't do it at ~90km. Let alone Chinese unproven ones.
In close combat, Radar Stealth can be defeated by sight.
OLS/FLIR/any optical sight provided well designed is unforgiving. If it's visible it can be locked no matter how much radar stealth stuff is done to it. and that's why in real combat a stealth a/c won't even come close to an adversary, it needs to detect first, and then shoot and scoot.
 

vstol Jockey

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In close combat, Radar Stealth can be defeated by sight.
OLS/FLIR/any optical sight provided well designed is unforgiving. If it's visible it can be locked no matter how much radar stealth stuff is done to it. and that's why in real combat a stealth a/c won't even come close to an adversary, it needs to detect first, and then shoot and scoot.
Exactly. Too much of stealth is of no use because you will be picked up by either ESM or OLS/FLIR. So it is better to go for radar LO design but very good dogfighting design. LO is needed to avoid fore warning by ground based sensors but in air you need to get in within 30-40 kms of an enemy undetected to make the kill.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Exactly. Too much of stealth is of no use because you will be picked up by either ESM or OLS/FLIR. So it is better to go for radar LO design but very good dogfighting design. LO is needed to avoid fore warning by ground based sensors but in air you need to get in within 30-40 kms of an enemy undetected to make the kill.
So it's why Rafale is a very good dogfighting design with LO approach and active cancellation and why useful range of MICA is 30-40 Km, and we plane to use Meteor only for AWACS, Tankers and other lightly maneuvering aircraft (including F-35 :eek:)
 
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Ashwin

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In close combat, Radar Stealth can be defeated by sight.
OLS/FLIR/any optical sight provided well designed is unforgiving. If it's visible it can be locked no matter how much radar stealth stuff is done to it. and that's why in real combat a stealth a/c won't even come close to an adversary, it needs to detect first, and then shoot and scoot.
Yes, I was explaining long rage combat here. Advantage is none in the short-range. I have always wondered why the US shied away from going IRST standard on their fighters. It is a rare negative for F-22.
 

randomradio

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Nopes. No such plans. LCA and it's single-engine variants are not moving from Banglore.
Nasik is where the "third line" will be set up. The first two lines are in Bangalore.

HAL plans 3rd LCA line to keep workforce engaged | India News - Times of India

The Bangalore line isn't enough for the delivery of all LCAs and MWFs in time, unless of course MWF is delayed by a few years.

If we end up adding 114 MMRCA and it's made in India, it will most likely be built at HAL, Nashik.
No. MMRCA was supposed to be built in Bangalore. Of course, now it's a different situation.

Hind Aeronautics calls bids for new MMRCA complex
Defence aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has invited bids to build a new design and manufacturing complex in Bangalore for MMRCA fighter planes.

HAL plans to locate it at Challaghatta where it has large tracts of land. The integrated ‘green' factory complex will include hangars, runways and residential units.


But Nasik will continue building fighter jets. Also, AFAIK, HAL will be kept out of the MRFA tender.
Yes, I was explaining long rage combat here. Advantage is none in the short-range. I have always wondered why the US shied away from going IRST standard on their fighters. It is a rare negative for F-22.
A lot of technologies, including IRST, did not make it to the F-22 in order to keep development costs low. This was the time of sequestration after all.
 
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vstol Jockey

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So it's why Rafale is a very good dogfighting design with LO approach and active cancellation and why useful range of MICA is 30-40 Km, and we plane to use Meteor only for AWACS, Tankers and other lightly maneuvering aircraft (including F-35 :eek:)
I fully agree with you. I had stated it manytimes when people asked me the rational of putting wingtip WVRAAMs on my design.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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