Air Engagement of Operation Sindoor : Analysis
- Thread starter Parthu
- Start date
just a question but when does IAF plan to officially release the actual losses of our jes and how many Pakistani jets we destroyed with alteast some proof ?
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Looks increasingly likely that a PAF platform was shot down here. Given the wreckage fell close to the missile debris, it would have been a slow platform. Most likely a Saab 340 or maybe be a Akinci UAV flying medium-low altitude. Given Adampur is 230-240 km away, I don't think it is a UAV as it is really slow (difficult to maintain track) and has less RCS.
The Rafale’s platform, airframe, and engine are undoubtedly superb.
However, the MRFA deal must be on our terms—it cannot be a repeat of 2016.
The French Air Force has little to no experience with large force engagements; they are living in their own la-la land.
The best aircraft for us would be the F-15EX or the F/A-18 Block III, but geopolitical realities won’t permit that.
So, the best option beyond the U.S. is actually the Rafale—but it must come equipped with our own systems: the Virupaksha EW suite and indigenous weaponry. With the advent of Astra Mk3, even the Meteor is becoming redundant. If Dassault doesn’t allow this, then restart production of the Su-30MKI and produce 200 upgraded units instead.
By the way, no one is asking why we haven’t fired a Meteor yet.
As per few OSINT channels, it still isn't fully integrated with Rafale or our IACCS/AFNET/C4I nodes. Any other reasons?
I have burning question guys (my first post)
Why were the paks not able to target and take out single Indian fighter on day 3 when India hit the far more dangerous targets of 11 main air bases The heart of Pak military and presumably well defended
Why Pakistan failed that night
What India did different from. First night fiasco which led 4 missing planes
Where was the much hyped chinease kill chain after all we were in full as alert both sides
Why were the paks not able to target and take out single Indian fighter on day 3 when India hit the far more dangerous targets of 11 main air bases The heart of Pak military and presumably well defended
Why Pakistan failed that night
What India did different from. First night fiasco which led 4 missing planes
Where was the much hyped chinease kill chain after all we were in full as alert both sides
On the first day, the Rafale was in air-to-ground configuration without METEOR, and on the following days there were no aircraft to attack at long range.
Ghass khayenge lekin atom bomb banayenge, Janab. What a retarded nation. They will never let us live in peace. History has proven that whenever they have supposedly got a wonder/superior weapon than ours, they try to attack us. They will again try to attack us, this way or that, post J-35's acquisition.
PS: A kangal country having 5th gen fighters when world's 4th largest air-force will need to wait for at least 10 years before having theirs' is just not acceptable. Time for IAF to wake up and smell the coffee.
How the world did a country with gdp equal to new Delhi on its own
And 5% of Indian Forex reserves get air superiority over Indian sub continent time and time again
Firstly swift resort they had better Ew suites Comms and Bvr
Avd Sindoor chinease kill chain.took out four Indian fighters in First half hour of the conflict to the point some of our pilots dropped their missiles just to get away from salvo of incoming PL15s
We should have been pushing for fifth generation 5 years ago we will be decade too late
Where did they get air superiority over us? Only in their Gazi minds? You're talking about an airforce which awards its pilots for imaginary kills and builds a monument of enemy fighters which they never killed, lol.
This is all propaganda. IAF bombed them in 2019 violating their airspace and they could do just nothing. 2 MKIs turned whlle Swift Retort to Swift Retreat. Mig-21 killed their crown jewel F-16.
Regarding the current Ops, we may or may not have lost few jets, but the fact that they knew we would attack and yet could do jack about our attack is sign of failure not success. Then on 9th & 10th May, Su-30 MKI + BrahMos combo literally brought them on their knees as admitted by their PM himself. This is what is called Air-Dominance paijaan and not what you're touting for the p o r k i e s.
We should never have left FGFA program! I don't care what anybody says, but that was the biggest blunder of Modi gov in my opinion.
I think it could be any of these:
- What they did on May 7th was their 100% best case scenario that they are currently capable of, must have planned it out and done rehearsals. Also, maybe they got lucky that the events followed their script closely.
- Their Air Situation Picture system relied heavily on ground radars. From May 8th, when IAF conducted SEAD then this ASP degraded. AEW&Cs doesn't come in picture as they would be on station throughout the clash.
- Maybe HQ9s and HQ16 played a much bigger role on May 7th in complicating things for IAF or even scoring kills. With SEAD, they were degraded
- Maybe later IAF did staggered launch of aircraft from different geographical areas to spread PAF resources thin and create gaps. On May 7th, all strike packages were up and trying to strike targets at once. This allowed PAF to mobile it's resources and attack these packages.
PAF too was trying to create gaps with their drones but were not able to do any effective SEAD. They tried limited SOW weapon attacks but they were mostly intercepted, they have limited stockpile and wanted to save for actual war. I think effective Indian air defence especially S400 & MRSAM detered their strike missions, they didn't want to get in a situation where they had to deal with IAF fighters and SAMs together which would have caused airframe losses.
What kind of things are you reading to have these kinds of predispositions? They didn't have the military superiority like you mentioned.
They are a national security state with a competent military. So they do have the upper hand in certain areas of military procurement and planning; it's more efficient. They can convince their population of anything. ISI created a separate division to influence foreign journalists while we just avoided them. They focus on achieving small wins to reinforce their relevance to the population, while our military focuses on achieving the objectives given to them by the political class.
We are not Israel or US that can act at will. We do not want to be seen as an aggressor. It's a political decision; our military can only operate within those constraints. Every conflict that capacity to take risk is increasing. For the next conflict there wont be a RoE like this time. The more our military get freedom to action better outcomes come faster. You have to remember that there is no precedence for such a conflict under a nuclear umbrella. We don't know when the house of cards will crumble down. So we have to tread carefully.
* chatgpt is kind racist
French weapons are expensive compared to Israeli weapons, and naturally Indian ones. I guess 'cause both need volumes while France does not.
If Rafale's survivability is in question, then it's a problem with the jet's core systems, like EW or stealth, not integration to the IACCS.
Any risk they would have taken would have happened at low altitude, that's well outside any SAM's envelop (<40 km).
If MKIs provided top cover, they would have stepped in to protect strike-equipped Rafales.
So if Rafales were under threat, it's most likely due to deficiencies in its own self-protection capabilities or poor intelligence or just bad luck. Integration is unlikely to be an issue.
With the Rafale as it is, every six months we carry out a ‘Poker’ exercise, which consists of simulating a nuclear raid against targets defended by SAMs and an air force. There is a classic part that involves clearing all threats on the trajectory of the aircraft carrying the nuclear weapon (SAMs, radar, AWACS, fighters, etc.) and the nuclear strike that follows. This is much more challenging than attacking bases near the Indian border. So we don't understand.
I don't think the French have an exercise where the rafale faced an adversary with GaN based AEWCS and aesa seeker equipped bvr missiles with the rafale being limited in options without the meteor. Also it seems like spectra is ineffective against aesa radars.
On the contrary, Spectra is effective against AESA LPI radars.
We don't even know if the rafale was lost due to a munition or due to an accident. Without any communication that's hard to know.
We also know that Some bhramos were used but we don't know if no scalp were used. At the ENd of the days Rafale and MKI were used in conjonction quite everry day. This is not a success for just one or the other. Without one or the other Pakistani could perhaps have found better effective solutions. But with so many different tactics and doctrines used together it was to hard.
The good tactic was to use use rafale and MKI together.
What have also been mastered is the high tempo of operations, just better enough so that the Pakistani were not ready in time to go in fly to intercept other incoming flights.
My take in opening day
Around 40/50 IAF planes deployed to strike 9 camps but heavily loaded with strike packages in other words no Bvr beyond 90/100km IE Astra mica etc
Pak was waiting chinease intel involved picked up the strike packages almost immediately...they took off they were in their kill chain had been practising all year for this .
J10 came with radars off vectored in by Awacs which was being fed by chinease satalites and radars
The word is they got four fighters he were trying to escape
Apparently we hit six of the 9 bases only before Pl15s rained in
We learnt harsh lesson
We changed tactics on the 9th
Jammed radars etc had hit better defended air bases this time with no losses
I am very keen to understand how we changed the outcome so devastatingly to our advantage in just 48 hours
Around 40/50 IAF planes deployed to strike 9 camps but heavily loaded with strike packages in other words no Bvr beyond 90/100km IE Astra mica etc
Pak was waiting chinease intel involved picked up the strike packages almost immediately...they took off they were in their kill chain had been practising all year for this .
J10 came with radars off vectored in by Awacs which was being fed by chinease satalites and radars
The word is they got four fighters he were trying to escape
Apparently we hit six of the 9 bases only before Pl15s rained in
We learnt harsh lesson
We changed tactics on the 9th
Jammed radars etc had hit better defended air bases this time with no losses
I am very keen to understand how we changed the outcome so devastatingly to our advantage in just 48 hours
I think that no error have been commited at the IAF level. The reason of the changes in tactics is the way Pakistani have reacted on the first day. They didn't even consider that only terrorist were attacked by IAF. The fact is that it was a trap and the first indian reaction was not to counter this trap but just to react to the terrorist attack. As soon as the trap was considered the Indian reaction has changed and became much more violent, just under the deterence level of reaction.
If we considere that Pakistanis will very soon receive much more modern fighters, we can say that they were totally overwhelmed with their J-10/J-17 and PL-15 solution.