It carries some unique weapons, and it dodged numerous PL-15s fired at it. So today it's the only jet around that dodged AMRAAMs and PL-15s. That's where it got its value.
Air Engagement of Operation Sindoor : Analysis
- Thread starter Parthu
- Start date
It carries some unique weapons, and it dodged numerous PL-15s fired at it. So today it's the only jet around that dodged AMRAAMs and PL-15s. That's where it got its value.
Fact, Russia should have beaten Ukraine in a week. It's been 3 years and counting.
Fact, China is a much larger economy than Russia. 8-10x I'm not exactly sure.
Perhaps, I'm underestimating Russia, perhaps we shouldn't underestimate 20 trillion dollars. Even at 15 trillion for Chinese inflation, it's still going to be magnitude higher resources than Russia could dream of.
There's an element of randomness to this. Weren't they in A2A role, while Rafales were in strike? Lighter and further away.
I like the SU30MKI. It's still going to be the same as the Rafale, F-16, F-15, Su-35 against the J-20 or J-35. I'd still rather pilot the Rafale out of any 4.5 get.
Red Flag 20-1, 15-1, 10-1. It doesn't really matter. Point is you need 5th gen to deal with the next gen AWACS, 200km + missile range kinda warfare.
We've had this discussion several times but for the umpteenth time, F-35 is NOT an Air-Superiority Fighter. It's a ground-striker. It's not designed to fight something like a J-20 at 60k feet rather hunt mobile IADS on its own using EOTS. Do you think Indians are fools? Do you think we've no idea of air-combat?
If we procure F-35 and to your surprise I want GOI to procure it, but it'll be to penetrate Chinese air-defence rather that engage J-20, J-36 or J-50 at 50k+ feet supersonically. F-35 isn't designed for that purpose.
At the moment, Su-57 with ISE is the ONLY option to take on Chinese 5th gen/6th gen ASFs.
It also defeated multiple HQ-9/16 SAMs fired towards it(along with PL-15s). It was indeed a miraculous display of man-machine combo.
It's perfectly fine against the J-20 lol. The entirety of the US strategy is based around the F-35 versus the J-20.
What is the distinction between air superiority and multirole at this point? Quote from China forum.
No special emphasis on energy mobility. F-35 doesn't have the best range, but that's also irrelevant for India. It does have good radar, stealth and enough VLRAAM poles. I would much rather fight in the F-35 than the F-22. Better stealth, better sensors, better stuff for BVR fight.
Too much into designed purpose. The design philosophy in A2A behind the F-35 went the opposite way of the Raptor, and it was correct.
No it isn't. That's why F-22 MLU and F-47 exist.
F-35 won't cut it against J-20/J-36/J-50. You need F-22/F-47 or Su-57M for that. Only the latter is the option available to us.
Yes, J-36. That's a different 6th gen concept. High-speed cruising stuff was neglected by you. That means high level of kinematics which F-35 hasn't got. Of course, J-36 isn't designed for EM but J-50 is and has even got TVC for super-maneuverability. Go figure.
USAF disagree(s) with you, Ric Nunnes, Corsair1963 etc. They would rather fight in F-22 that has Stealth+ or F-47 which shall have Stealth++ with super-maneuverability and super-kinematics than in Fat Amy which can't run and can't turn. LMAO.
Lol.
PS: F-35 was locked by Houthis vintage SAM and almost got shot. So much so for its superior stealth
@randomradio
Last edited:
The rafales were at an extreme disadvantage while the flanker was in a2a configuration with most likely no drop tanks and had either the astra mk1/r-77-1/r-27er most likely.
The F-47 doesn't exist. Won't be relevant in numbers till late 2030s. The F-22 MLU is because the F-22 is better than 4th gen planes, and there's some benefit in having high speed jets.
It absolutely cuts it lol. Better radar, better stealth, better sensors than the F-22. That's what matters most in network air war.
It happens, no plane is perfect. I still think it's significant the F-35 is much closer to the ideal 6th gen than the Su-57.
Who? USAF doesn't agree lol. F-47 will not have super kinematics or maneuverability. Most people project something like a B-21 fighter. Long range, fast, sensors, radar, stealth.
Is the F-16 a fat amy that can't turn? The F-35 beats the F-16 in turning.
Oh damn, guess non stealth aircraft and worse stealth aircraft will struggle much harder?Lol.
PS: F-35 was locked by Houthis vintage SAM and almost got shot. So much so for its superior stealth
There's a reason why some in here believe the F-35 isn't a superiority fighter and that is because IAF doesn't have a stealth fighter and won't have one for the foreseeable future. These people have to go out of their way to justify why an all 4th gen air force like the IAF can more than handle a chicom 5th gen air force. It's delusional thinking and aren't fooling anyone but themselves. If anything this conflict with Pakistan was a wakeup call for the folks in here but a few in here are pretending everything is all good.
We, USAF, USN, UK, Norway, ect ect... know the F-35 IS more than a match for the J-20 or any other fighter including the F-22 (F-22 pilots struggle against F-35 aggressors) F-35 range in air to air configuration is also much more than the 760nm thanks to the interview with two F-35 pilots where the woman pilot said 900nm in air to air. Trust me if IAF had F-35 they wouldn't be talking such nonsense and would be saying the IAF has thee advantaged over PLAAF and their J-20s.
F 35 is the most advance fighter jet currently in service in the world period. I think sooner or later we are going to make a move for it....fanboys here have a vested interest for undermining F 35. Their is no French stealth fighter jet in the horizon anytime soon & my skinny fat body still has less RCS than SU 57.
Next time Air strikes should come after a massive barrage of SRBM, Cruise missiles on Porkee Airfields & Critical military infrastructure & for that we need systems like Iskander , LORA or PrSM with numbers........ I am talking about no less than 10,000 SRBM of Iskander class at minimum here.
There's only a couple of Indians in here that believe F-35 is not an air dominance fighter I think the rest know what the F-35 brings to a nations air to air realm.
Russia screwed up their initial invasion due to lack of preparation and foresight. Troops were sent in without clear objectives.
And then the Kremlin got tricked into another agreement after the invasion that Boris convinced Zelensky to scrap. Putin was angrily waving the papers in everybody's faces at one point.
Now the Russians are fighting at a pace they are comfortable with while at the same time using the war to raise a whole new army on the side. And Russia's kept Ukraine boiling to the point where the West cannot actively interfere and the Russians are using the war to rapidly modernize. Simply put, they don't intend to "win" the war until they are militarily ready. They have already won the war, they are just maintaining the grind to keep the West out.
That's also why they will only accept a ceasefire on their terms.
Russia's defense capital spending is more than the US capital spending. Their spending was quite modest before the war, but with the new post-war spending, they only need time to accumulate and they will surpass the US quite significantly.
To put things in perspective, Russia's pre-war modernization spending was 3 times that of India's ($18B vs $60B). Today it's easily 5 times ($21B vs $100+B). And if you bring in local prices, they are spending at least thrice as much as the US is right now ($150B vs $400-500B).
The slow-boiling war is giving them time to prep for NATO.
The MKI exceeded expectations based on what we know. And we do not know to what extent the Rafales played a part.
But advanced Swedish AWACS seem to have failed against the MKI, and so did some of the most advanced Chinese SAMs and AAMs. The AAMs in particular were the ones the PLAAF themselves use. So there is some relevance to the claim. I suppose if your radars don't work very well, then stealth isn't a factor anymore.
And they operated in a scenario where the PAF could fire at the IAF and the IAF couldn't return fire. IAF jets attacked Pakistani terrorist camps without first conducting SEAD/DEAD. And Modi showed up on TV and said he won't give such a leeway the next time. And when SEAD/DEAD was allowed, it was pretty much one-sided.
PS: F-35 was locked by Houthis vintage SAM and almost got shot. So much so for its superior stealth
The F-35 is still WIP. Once B4 capabilities come in, it will become a real fighter. So let's not judge it by one-off incidents.
J20? Likely. J35? Probably not. I think Su 57 with Astra Mk2 and R37M can match J35 in PAF hands. BTW Russkis pioneered stealth, they were one of the first to work on it (Peter Ufimetsev guy idk if that's how we pronounce his name). Americans were first to implement it. Experience also matters a great deal, which is why China despite all of its industrial capability has still not made an SSBN close to Borei class, or SSN close to Yasen class for example. So to say all of their military tech is better simply due to greater industrial strength is not correct. Su57 has gone through a lot of work since it's rivet screw exposing prototypes from the 2010s. Coupled with AL41 or AL51, it's way superior than J35 in propulsion tech. There's no way their WS10 or whatever they call it matches AL51 or even AL41. J20 however is indeed better than Su57. But we will be facing J35 in greater numbers and also in the hands of a rouge state, which Su57 can take care of.
It merely the opinion of one person. 6th gen has very heavy emphasis on energy mobility.
The F-47's performance will be far superior to the F-22. GCAP and SCAF are being developed with extreme kinematics in mind too.
The F-22 is still necessary to gain and maintain air superiority. The F-35 has limitations in that department.
Like General Hostage said...
“If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22,” says Hostage to Air Force Times.
Both Su-57 and F-35 are WIP, so it's still too early to compare.
Russians were the only ones to ever match them face to face at a level even modern China has not done yet. For almost every system US made the Russians during cold war had an answer to , even for niche stuff like seabed warfare for eg. So Russia still makes them a little bit insecure. It's true Russian capabilities have downgraded to a massive extent since 1989 but the legacy and experience and systems they gainef during 40 years of cold war doesn't just vanish. It's enough to make even Russia still be a military power almost on the level of the West even today though it has an economy smaller than Italy.
What about General Hostage? He was the commander of the Air Combat Command and controlled both the F-22 and F-35 fleets. He says the F-35 is not an ASF.
There are other people too.
Why the F-35 Isn’t Good Enough for Japan
Tokyo looks to American and indigenous alternatives as a result of the joint strike fighter’s shortcomings.
thediplomat.com
You can lie to yourself to shape reality, but reality is something else entirely.
You need high altitude and high speed to be counted as an ASF. That's the most basic requirement.
Or are you saying you know more than USAF Generals?
So let me get this straight: you think that the fighter with the most advanced avionics package in service anywhere right now (still a WIP so will only get better) isn't cut out to handle J-20/J-35/J-XX "6th gen" but a Rafale F5 or a Su-30MKI-MLU will be, coupled with a hypothetical Su-57M(AL-51F+ MKI-fication) which will never materialise in Indian service? I understand some degree of fanboyism of Su platforms given they form IAF's backbone, I love the Su-30 too; but to say that F-35 of all planes isn't equipped to handle J-20 is something preposterous & I don't agree with. F-22 MLUs get computers & avionics derived from the JSF programme (except no EOTS though, just an external podded IRST).No it isn't. That's why F-22 MLU and F-47 exist.
F-35 won't cut it against J-20/J-36/J-50. You need F-22/F-47 or Su-57M for that. Only the latter is the option available to us.
Yes, J-36. That's a different 6th gen concept. High-speed cruising stuff was neglected by you. That means high level of kinematics which F-35 hasn't got. Of course, J-36 isn't designed for EM but J-50 is and has even got TVC for super-maneuverability. Go figure.
USAF disagree(s) with you, Ric Nunnes, Corsair1963 etc. They would rather fight in F-22 that has Stealth+ or F-47 which shall have Stealth++ with super-maneuverability and super-kinematics than in Fat Amy which can't run and can't turn. LMAO.
Lol.
PS: F-35 was locked by Houthis vintage SAM and almost got shot. So much so for its superior stealth
(6th gen in quotes for obvious reasons as it isn't fully defined yet).
A Su-30MLU will take care of all the PLAAF Flankers but it's inherent lack of radar stealth will always put it at a disadvantage against the J-20. No amount of fancy GaN-based avionics with world-beating sensor fusion will ever make up for a non-stealthy airframe. If that was the case, US military would've never made F-22 and F-35; Chinese won't have made J-20, J-35 and soon J-36 & J-50 and we won't be investing in AMCA either. AMCA is our best bet to ensure parity against PLAAF 5th gen but if we absolutely have to get an interim solution (40-60 units), it has to be the F-35A. But IAF will invest in more important stuff (AWACS, refuelers, Tejas Mk2, AMCA etc) before deciding on a foreign 5th gen import.
Last edited:
This is a myth deliberately spread by the Yanks. I've seen the f-35 fly irl in aero- India. The thing has a smaller turn rate than the f-16 and is far more powerful than both the mki and rafale. I've seen them do a demonstration. Sure it cannot do the thrust vectoring stuff but it's energy retention is above average and the engine sound makes the mki and rafale sound tame. I saw all the displays and the thing was turning at far higher speeds than the f-16. There's no way f-35 is mediocre in wvr.
You forget the French