AHCA (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft) concept, 5/5.5/6gen? Su-30MKI replacement? TEDBF 2.0?

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Your schedule doesn't take into account the time lost fixing problems that show up.

I did consider the fixing, adjusting time, but in a different way, i mentioned a very superficial & URGENT timeline with shift duty.
- After 3x500 days or 4yrs i added another 3yrs.
- I'm not considering our GoI/MoD/DoD late & sorry attitude so far post independence, be it with funding or metallurgy engineering colleges, etc. After developing 1st version of Kaveri we are not noobs anymore.
- Moreover, every maker works on many types of engines for cargo, passenger, military. Time is distributed among products. But if work force is not increased then timeline further gets extended.
- Like i said at least 2-3 engines would be made perhaps with slightly different set of parameters, so that if 1 stalls others can continue.

Take NGAD's engines. Development for both started in the 90s and they are yet to pick a winner. And the F-35's engine still has problems that can only be fixed sometime after 2030.

It seems NGAD engines concept began in 2007 with VAATE/ADVENT program.
In 2016 GE & P&W started building XA-100 & XA-101 respectively for NGAD & also possible candidate for F-35.
In just 1 year itself by 2017 P&W took F135 core & put additional 2 stream shell around it & created a demonstrator.
XA-101 ground testing began in 2021.
Then they decided not to change the complete F135 engine for F-35 but there are doing some kind of MLU.

If we go by my timeframe, AHCA won't be taken up until AMCA's crossed the LSP stage and achieves IOC. Tey will make a paper design then. Post that, engineering phase will happen only after FOC. The reason being if govt clears AHCA earlier than that, then all the main scientists will bully their way into AHCA while ignoring AMCA. That's why AMCA was cleared only after LCA Mk1/A finished development. During that time they designed Ghatak.

That's the Kumbhakaran version which won't reduce the gap with West a bit. It is the engine & geopolitics dictating everything since LCA days. But things are different now. If EU can dump 5gen & we are ready to use present engines by Russia or USA then AHCA can be prototyped along with AMCA till new engines are made for both. It is like diff. b/w F-18 class to F-15 class. If AHCA can be made then AMCA can be exported like reduced version of AHCA. Russia & China cannot match Western standards yet, but they don't sacrifice their R&D with whatever they have. Otherwise we re looking at HMRCA tenders.
- We are in the era of advanced CAD S/w which can speed up the soft part.
- When we have expansion of products & platforms in our arsenal & also export potential then we definitely need a larger work force & infrastructure. It will give more employment opportunities.

My point was if the US and Russia are introducing such tech in just a few more years, then AHCA will be at equivalent category or higher. And because of RLV, we will also have such tech by 2030, just not militarized. So, if it's, militarized, then it can end up as part of AHCA.
And it's because of this development that I put the IN's next fighter as a technology bridge between AMCA and AHCA.

I think there is still confusion here.
I'm speculating about Naval AHCA in 2040s & you are talking about adding a SCRamjet to it bcoz USA & Russia have UNREVEALED SR-72 & PAKDP. There is no news on Naval SR-72 or even high-supersonic Naval MiG-41 PAKDP.
> Capitalist USA & Communist Russia rivalry will exist till there is life on this planet or 1 of them becomes like the other. USA understood that to rule the world they have to lead the future, means as many technologies as possible, including military. And Russia has vowed not to bow before West even if its citizens live a bad life. While we have chosed a Socialist mixed economy & to be diplomatic with both of them. Hence our military priorities will never equal theirs.
> If you say that a regular turbofan engine or its 3 stream VCE will itself take 20-30 years then imagine how much a Ramjet, then a SCRamjet R&D would/should take with full safety & good efficiency.
- RLV is still downscaled TD of the actual spaceplane which would be size of USA's Space Shuttle.
- RLV is testing SCRamjet, not Ramjet. Big difference.
- Having few Spaceplanes & having 100s of SCRamjet Fighters, mamoth cost difference.
So we won't have a fighter jet in 2040s with SCRamjet long after USA has SR-72 like thing.
> Like i said, a Hypersonic aircraft will need massive fuel, 2 types of engines, good payload. Even the YF-12A empty weight was 27.6 tons & MTOW 63.5 tons. So it will be not just heavy but super-heavy category, not that of AHCA but much beyond it.
So SCRamjet development cannot be bridge b/w AMCA & AHCA.

It's because I don't think the IAF will be interested in an AMCA++ that's slightly bigger and heavier with a bit more stealth merely 10 years after AMCA is inducted.

AMCA++???... reminds me of C++ but that was much better than C.
> AHCA won't be just "slightly" bigger & heavier. it needs to carry customized naval strike weapons internaly. For now we should initially assume it to be like NGAD, F/A-XX.
> If bigger jet is bit more stealthy than a smaller jet then it is a big achievment. F-22 is 10x less RCS than F-35, that's awesome.
> Sometimes i feel that IAF's liking/disliking has also contributed to problems. Feedback from pilots is taken for improvements & upgrades but, 1000s of pilots may also differ in their likes/dislikes w.r.t. cockpit design, controls, screen GUI, etc.
But if AHCA can be created by 2040s then IAF & IN won't have any reason of disliking it.

That's fine. The X-32 and X-35 were designed to be more stealthy than the F-22, and one look at the X-32 will tell you it's okay.

View attachment 35641

Neither of the JSF were designed to be more stealthy than F-22 bcoz they were JOINT strike fighter meant also for allies while F-22 was made with export ban, not even to closest allies. The Boeing X-32 was a loser from begining due tomany factors including exposed engine or blocker if any.

The Su-47 also has S-duct with hidden blades, but decided to give up on it on Su-57, so the Russians know what they are doing.

May i know - Are you Russian?
> Scientists & engineers in USA, Russia, France, UK, Sweden, China, Turkey, S.Korea, they all know what they are doing. But -ve points are found on all their jets. We have to try to avoid all those. The ultimate result is that Su-57, J-20 have not reduced their RCS near F-22's. So exposed blocker can also be contributing reason. And if angled blocker alone is so effective then R.I.P. all those geometric stealth concepts. And the blocker should then be installed on 4.5gen jets also, major problem solved.
Why should we take chance with our future concepts bcoz of other countries?

This is what the F-32 could have been.

This Is What A Boeing F-32 Would've Looked Like If Lockheed Lost The JSF Competition

To this day the X-32 is lambasted for its atrocious looks, but Boeing's final vision for its F-32 fighter was markedly different in appearance.

www.twz.com

Yeah, everybody knows that & today most people thank god for not having it.

As per the Americans, the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22.

Never heard that in American documentaries, articles on ATF, JSF. Like i said, an export jet cannot be more stealthy than the one with export ban & the reasons are clearly visible in design. F-22 doesn't have IFR probe door, ladder, EOTS, too many bumps, etc. It is apparently using more RAM. Obviously there are more secrets which world doesn't know.
F-35 being a newer jet has some better sensors, fusion, cockpit, HMDS, networking.

And the Russians claim their design is pretty close to both. Even if the Su-57 is not good enough, they are developing new variants, unlike the Americans.

Chinese also claim. Turkey will also start claiming. We also claim about our R&D. Such military secrets will never come out.
I would love to see new Su-57 variant. But being a techie i'll support the best tech config in each jet.

Someone's put a lot of effort into the RCS modeling of the Su-57.

What is the RCS of the SU 57?

Jack's answer: So, what is the RCS of the SU57? Is it 0.1m2 (-10dbsm)~1m2 (1dbsm) since a lot of people say that the SU57 has the same RCS size of an F/A 18 and Rafale aircraft. Saying that the SU57 has a less/no RAM coating with exposed rivets, back part of the engine nacelles, intake with no r...

www.quora.com

In any case, the Su-57 is VLO from the front. They wouldn't have put so much effort into the airframe and intake designs, like blocker and planar wings just to get Su-47 class stealth. And if the front is VLO, the side and rear aspects will also have been designed to be similar. At least we know the engine has been designed for stealth.

Some other websites also have similar analysis on different jets like J-20, F-35, etc. Human intelligence is spread across the globe. Every nation as per their R&D are master of certain things - RAM, RAS, EW, TVC, Canards, etc.
We common citizens can only comprehend the basic physics, chemistry, maths which we read in school, college.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Now a days, software are available which keeps Canards on such an angle that it positions itself in such a way to ensure that RCS does not increases much and yet do not affect flight performance of aircraft. MWF is equipped with such software.

I am skeptical about this logic. If any control surface is played with or malfunctions then jet can crash. In a level flight, the default angle of canard would be horizontal zero degree. A small deflection causes the aircraft to pitch up/down. Major deflections occur during low speed - takeoff, landing, refuelling; & high AoA turns & maneuvers.
J-20 is the only example of 5gen using canards. There can be S.O.P. to fly at certain altitude & heading depending upon suspected enemy position, may be a decending angle flight, etc. The RCS of every angle is important but the canards can deflect only in 1 axis.
Moreover, with 4.5gen canards jets, when the entire jet itself is 4.5gen then there is no point to have such feature bcoz some other aspect of jet will give away the RCS.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Of course, you can't make a jet stealth by just painting it with RAM. Any jet that carries its weapons outside won't be stealth in the truest sense. But then technology has advanced so much that modern RAPs(radar absorbent paint) has the ability to drastically reduce a legacy jets's RCS to give it RO(Reduced Observable) or LO(Low Observable) properties. That's how far they would go.

These slabs/brackets of RO, LO, VLO should be defined with RCS range for better understanding. And they have to be adjusted as per seeker & radar developments also. What was LO 20 yrs back may be normal today. What was VLO 20 yrs back may be LO today.

Modern QWIP IRST has the ability to detect stealth planes from over 150kms. Couple that with missiles like Astra 2/3 and MKI would surprise these VLO jets with 100% passive shot.

We can arm MKI with QWIP & Novator AWACS killer also but if an adversary VLO cannot be located in time then it is useless. 5gen VLO jet is supposed to be like a sniper or pack hunter bcoz 4.5gen don't have spherical coverage & long range of their sensors. Su-35-S also has been upgraded with same 6-axis DAS/MAWS but if any 5gen can't defeat it then what's the use?

MAKO isn't an AAM. Just a hypersonic air-to-surface missile. Current EOTS isn't that capable however they're looking to improve its range/resolution in the Block 4 version.

Modern QWIP IRST especially LWIR based like IRST-21 or dual-band based like PIRATE or Skyward-G pay special care to catch skin friction which can't be avoided when travelling at 900kmph+ at over 10k feet. Atmosphere is extremely cool as you go high. No amount of changing metallic skin will help there.

F-35 employs a top coat over its paint just to reduce its friction/Infra-Red signature but modern QWIP sensors have become too good.

Americans for years mocked IRST systems are now themselves looking to put pod based IRST systems in all their jets. That's a testimony of how far IRST systems have evolved.

This Tom & Jerry game will continue endlessly. Sensor detection range Vs missile range. There will be HySo-AAMs soon also. Assuming both sides have long range good radar + IRST, both have spotted each other & confirmed to be hostile at say 200 Km, but 1 has BVR-AAM of say 120 Km & other has of 180 Km then later will have better chance. Both sides need to stay out of NEZ (No Escape Zone) of each other's AAMs. So bcoz they both have to maneuver a lot hence spherical coverage of IR & RF sensors is important to maintan continious track. In heavy cloud cover, IR will loose edge.

Stealth can't be eyeballed. Su-57M employs a different philosophy. Su-30MKI is better than all US teen fighters. There is no reason why Su-57 won't be better than F-22/F-35.

I don't want to be sentimental about our or any jets. In general, the newer gen is supposed have all kinds of upperhands over previous gen, then only a gen leap can be said to have occured. If MKI is better than other 4.5gen doesn't matter to AMCA & AHCA.
Su-57 Vs F-22 Vs F-35 Vs J-20 also doesn't matter bcoz there are so many aspects of stealth that it is tough to rank a jet overall.
I have always believed that F-22 will be better in BVR & Su-57 will be better in gunfight. Both sides may be equal with LOAL CCMs.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

I HUMBLY REQUEST AT LEAST ALL INDIAN MEMBERS NOT TO BE SENTIMENTAL ABOUT ANY PLATFORM/PRODUCT OR COUNTRY BCOZ A MODERN PLATFORM IS COMBINATION OF MANY TECHNOLOGIES & COMPONENTS.

WHEN DISCUSSING ABOUT OUR OWN POSSIBLE FUTURE PLATFORM, WE SHOULD SUPPORT THE BEST TECH CONFIG OF EACH ASPECT/COMPONENT W/o PREJUDICE.

LEAVE SOLDIERS, IF SCIENTISTS & ENGINEERS OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES ARE MADE TO DEBATE F2F, THEY WILL BEAT EACH OTHER.

 

[Rajput Lion]

These slabs/brackets of RO, LO, VLO should be defined with RCS range for better understanding. And they have to be adjusted as per seeker & radar developments also. What was LO 20 yrs back may be normal today. What was VLO 20 yrs back may be LO today.

This is true. But then only that much can be done to any jet that carries its weapons outside.

We can arm MKI with QWIP & Novator AWACS killer also but if an adversary VLO cannot be located in time then it is useless.

The IRST is designed to locate the VLO jets from far distance. The Digital RWR is to geo-locate their LPI signals. The GaN radar with AI algorithms is specifically designed to track low RCS targets which older radars would have rejected as clutter.

In the end 5th gen vs 4.5 gen could go either way with slight advantage to 5th gen jets. The advancements in radar/RWR/IRST technology is allowing 4.5 gen jets to counter 5th gen jets.

5gen VLO jet is supposed to be like a sniper or pack hunter bcoz 4.5gen don't have spherical coverage & long range of their sensors. Su-35-S also has been upgraded with same 6-axis DAS/MAWS but if any 5gen can't defeat it then what's the use?

Everything is in theory. IAF has done plenty of practise with both F-22 and F-35. They know how our 4.5 jets may counter PLAAF 5th gen jets.

This Tom & Jerry game will continue endlessly. Sensor detection range Vs missile range. There will be HySo-AAMs soon also. Assuming both sides have long range good radar + IRST, both have spotted each other & confirmed to be hostile at say 200 Km, but 1 has BVR-AAM of say 120 Km & other has of 180 Km then later will have better chance. Both sides need to stay out of NEZ (No Escape Zone) of each other's AAMs. So bcoz they both have to maneuver a lot hence spherical coverage of IR & RF sensors is important to maintan continious track. In heavy cloud cover, IR will loose edge.

Dual-Band QWIP IRST that work in both MWIR and LWIR are specifically designed to work even in heavy cloud/rain. That's why they use MWIR, otherwise at altitude LWIR is way better in detection of stealth jets.

I don't want to be sentimental about our or any jets. In general, the newer gen is supposed have all kinds of upperhands over previous gen, then only a gen leap can be said to have occured. If MKI is better than other 4.5gen doesn't matter to AMCA & AHCA.

Its not about whether one jet is better than the other cause its a team effort. In the end, the side that has better synergy will prevail in the war.

Su-57 Vs F-22 Vs F-35 Vs J-20 also doesn't matter bcoz there are so many aspects of stealth that it is tough to rank a jet overall.
I have always believed that F-22 will be better in BVR & Su-57 will be better in gunfight. Both sides may be equal with LOAL CCMs.

There are no definitive answers here, IMO. Su-57 is designed to kill F-22, so we can't say which is clearly better.

 

[Speedster1]

The dynamics of air warfare could change dramatically in the next few years, if new tech like 'plasma-stealth' or 'photonic radar' with very large detection ranges matures. 1 is apparently in the lab-testing phase and 2 has reached prototyping stage. If they work as claimed, theoretically even 4G fighters would be able to take on 5G birds. Although there are questions about how plasma might interfere with one's own communications, a breakthrough may be around the corner.

New China tech might make fighter planes vanish from radar

Chinese researchers claim to have plasma-based technology that can hide the aircraft from radar detection.

www.newsweek.com

Russian army to get photonic radars

google_ad_client = "pub-4068738923530102"; /* 468x15 data sheet menu top dark green */ google_ad_slot = "3500417247"; google_ad_width = 468; go

armyrecognition.com

Imo, close-in combat will mostly be left to swarm drones in the future which will be able to pull impossible Gs by human standards. Somewhat like the alien space ships shown in Independence Day.

It's an exciting time to be alive!

 

[Rajput Lion]

The dynamics of air warfare could change dramatically in the next few years, if new tech like 'plasma-stealth' or 'photonic radar' with very large detection ranges matures. 1 is apparently in the lab-testing phase and 2 has reached prototyping stage. If they work as claimed, theoretically even 4G fighters would be able to take on 5G birds. Although there are questions about how plasma might interfere with one's own communications, a breakthrough may be around the corner.

New China tech might make fighter planes vanish from radar

Chinese researchers claim to have plasma-based technology that can hide the aircraft from radar detection.

www.newsweek.com

Russian army to get photonic radars

google_ad_client = "pub-4068738923530102"; /* 468x15 data sheet menu top dark green */ google_ad_slot = "3500417247"; google_ad_width = 468; go

armyrecognition.com

Apart from all the above mentioned, don't forget quantum radars, Quantum Dot Photo Detectors(QDIP), Multi-static radars along with very fast patrol data links and a very strong counter "Passive Stealth" tech is coming forth. Unlike others, I don't think stealth would cease to work but in due course its importance may not remain as it is now.

Imo, close-in combat will mostly be left to swarm drones in the future which will be able to pull impossible Gs by human standards. Somewhat like the alien space ships shown in Independence Day.

It's an exciting time to be alive!

Very interestingly, this thread is about a 6th/7th gen HMCA replacing Su-30MKI. So even theoretically it's that damn good that we don't think it's feasible for a 5th gen to replace our MKI.

Thinking in a slightly lighter vein, in the American movie Stealth, they did show USAF AI drone and 6th gen plane fighting 2-seat Su-37 Terminator(literally our MKI) and guess what, the Super Flanker got gun shots on US planes before they swatted it. Here is the video just for fun:

Even Hollywood thinks that US 6th gen jet with AI drone is good enough to defeat Su-37, lol.

 

[Speedster1]

Thinking in a slightly lighter vein, in the American movie Stealth, they did show USAF AI drone and 6th gen plane fighting 2-seat Su-37 Terminator(literally our MKI) and guess what, the Super Flanker got gun shots on US planes before they swatted it. Here is the video just for fun.

That movie was a good one. When it comes to close-in, dogfights, there's probably no ac in existence that can match the Su-30MKI with its canard+TVC combo, barring perhaps the Typhoon and F-22.

US' NGAD is apparently being designed for speed and endurance since their carriers won't be able to operate too close to Chinese shores.

Manouverability is slipping down the list of priorities. But the US has a tremendous advantage in terms of stealth drones which more than makes up for it.

I love the aesthetic appeal of the CGI 6G ac and the AI drone. Hollywood is just too good with visual effects.

 

[Rajput Lion]

That movie was a good one. When it comes to close-in, dogfights, there's probably no ac in existence that can match the Su-30MKI with its canard+TVC combo, barring perhaps the Typhoon and F-22.

Su-30MKM forced F-22 to retreat every single time in guns-only dogfight in exercise Cope Taufan 2014.

Su-30MKI mauled Typhoon 12:0 in exercise Indradhanush 2015. Even Rafales were defeated by it in guns only dogfight in exercise Garuda 5(??).

In a dogfight that involves WVR IR HOBS missiles, it's almost perfect with its TVC+ Canards + R-73 + Sura-K combo.

US' NGAD is apparently being designed for speed and endurance since their carriers won't be able to operate too close to Chinese shores.

Manouverability is slipping down the list of priorities. But the US has a tremendous advantage in terms of stealth drones which more than makes up for it.

I love the aesthetic appeal of the CGI 6G ac and the AI drone. Hollywood is just too good with visual effects.

This thread is about a heavyweight stealth plane(like USAF NGAD) to replace MKI. I think our MKI replacement not only should possess superior stealth and sensor fusion over MKI but it should be more maneuverable than MKI too at all regimes(post stall, subsonic, transonic & supersonic). Yes, that'll be an engineering challenge but that's what we must do. We must not forlorn maneuverability at any cost, IMHO.

@vstol Jockey, is it feasible to design such a plane?

 

[Speedster1]

I think our MKI replacement not only should possess superior stealth and sensor fusion over MKI but it should be more maneuverable than MKI too at all regimes(post stall, subsonic, transonic & supersonic). Yes, that'll be an engineering challenge but that's what we must do. We must not forlorn maneuverability at any cost, IMHO

If there's one complaint the IAF has had with existing ac, be it Jaguar, LCA and even the M2000, it is that they were under powered. They were trying to fit the Jags with Honeywell F125 until a couple of years ago but gave up on cost grounds. Until the F-404-GE-IN-20 was available, the IAF had the same problem with the LCA MK1 too.

The IAF is full of fighter jocks, who want every bit of thrust possible (and, therefore, manouverability) out of their ac. Having flown the MKI for nearly 25 years, super-maneouverability is going to be a key IAF requirement for any future fighter.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Everything is in theory. IAF has done plenty of practise with both F-22 and F-35. They know how our 4.5 jets may counter PLAAF 5th gen jets.

I don't follow every defence news. I would like to know in which exercise IAF flew with/against F-22 & F-35 & with which jets - MKI, M2000, MiG-29, etc.

The IRST is designed to locate the VLO jets from far distance. The Digital RWR is to geo-locate their LPI signals. The GaN radar with AI algorithms is specifically designed to track low RCS targets which older radars would have rejected as clutter.

And the next gen VLO jet is supposed to have better RF & EO sensors, better S/w algorithms, that's how evolution works, simple.

Possibility 1 - The VLO/next gen jet will never be there where the older gen MLUed jet will try to find it. Like Chess game, the latest AI algorithms will alert the latest VLO jet where the adversary may try to find it & suggest evasion & attack options.

Possibility 2 - Both sides will be seeing each other at long ranges in RF & IR bands directly or indirectly by networking & sensor fusion.
The deciding factor will be range of AAMs & ability to destroy incoming AAMs. Dogfight may reduce a lot. In a special scenario if both sides have fired all their missiles & both sides evaded or destroyed the missiles then both are on low fuel & have to return to their bases.

In the end 5th gen vs 4.5 gen could go either way with slight advantage to 5th gen jets. The advancements in radar/RWR/IRST technology is allowing 4.5 gen jets to counter 5th gen jets.

In theory many of the S/w & H/w can be put from newer gen to older gen by MLU.
>Since 1st gen there has been overlap b./w adjacant gens. So the MLU does allow older gen to mordernize but obviously there is a limit.
>Newer gen R&D will be initially costly but neither it can stop nor it can be allowed to bankrupt the economy.
>In other words, the older gen can mordernize but cannot be allowed to stop domestic & export market of newer gen. So neither USA will put F-22's & F-35's all sensors in their F-15,16,18. Nor Russia will put Su-57's all sensors in Su-35, MiG-35, etc. Nor we'll put all AMCA new tech in older jets.
>The cost of all MLUs may be too much approaching cost of new gen.
>In some cases the older gen simply cant digest the newer gen things. May be the engine cannot give enough T/W ratio, electricity. The airframe may not have enough space, etc.

Dual-Band QWIP IRST that work in both MWIR and LWIR are specifically designed to work even in heavy cloud/rain. That's why they use MWIR, otherwise at altitude LWIR is way better in detection of stealth jets.

I briefly searched in Google Images, YouTube, Quora, etc. It seems LWIR can see through light but not heavy clouds bcoz heat radiation is weakened by water molecules, otherwise CAT-IIIa,b,c challenges would have been fully solved. Some passenger jets have Synthetic Vision, Enhanced Flight Vision System, etc but their IR part works for light/medium clouds/fog till few Kms. They are coupled with GPS, INS, AR, terrain superimposition data. Some of them use 4 optical sensors. It is a matter of not just 1/2 pilots but 100s of passengers also.

The following videos also show that densest clouds cannot be penetrated.

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On this Wiki page (Enhanced flight vision system - Wikipedia)
it is written "A passive millimeter wave (PMMW) camera is capable of producing a real time video image, with the advantage of seeing through clouds, fog and sand."
But MMW band (30-300 GHz) is RF band. So Radar band + camera sounds like PESA radar rather than IRST.

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There is very few info on domestic work :
A Twitter/X post mentioning IIT-Mumbai, but i was expecting some DoD unitlike DRDO, BEL, etc :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1804031321012080851

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A FB article

https://www.facebook.com/NextGenerationWeapons/posts/5015687321800060

But its attachment is very old from 2009

Some references on this forum:

further to my post.

Next Generation Weapons Technology

India develops basic technology for next generation IRST, EOTS and DAS system for AMCA. IIT Bombay develops QDIP technology which is more advanced than QWIP based EOTS device used in Sukhoi Su-57...

www.facebook.com

as you can see, we have taken a lead compared to rest of the world in this tech.

I do know that only IIT-B/M has been able to stabilise it and that too at room temperature. Which is outstanding as we can always apply cooling to the detector to increase its detectivity. You may not even know that IIT- Roorkee has done research on cabon nanotech and their model has over 90% absorption of radio waves frpm 0.8 GHZ to to over 18GHX frequency band. I follow research within India a lot. It is for this reason that My own MSA will have metalluc internal structure created thru 3D printing of duralumin and only a skin made of carbon nanoparticle made skin from IIT-Roorke

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Its not about whether one jet is better than the other cause its a team effort. In the end, the side that has better synergy will prevail in the war.

It seems that today & in future, that synergy = situational awareness + weapons range longer than adversary + evading or destroying enemy weapon.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

When it comes to close-in, dogfights, there's probably no ac in existence that can match the Su-30MKI with its canard+TVC combo

+

Su-30MKM forced F-22 to retreat every single time in guns-only dogfight in exercise Cope Taufan 2014.

Su-30MKI mauled Typhoon 12:0 in exercise Indradhanush 2015. Even Rafales were defeated by it in guns only dogfight in exercise Garuda 5(??).

In a dogfight that involves WVR IR HOBS missiles, it's almost perfect with its TVC+ Canards + R-73 + Sura-K combo.

> Do you have link of American & European news confirming this? Honestly, i'm astonished by 12:0 ratio. I've seen MKI, Russian Knights, EF-2000, Rafale, etc LIVE @ Aero-India. These little delta-canards are very sneaky, have excellent agility, acceleration & braking. Frankly, i'm not satisfied with our MKI if it comes to gunfight.
> No doubt, Flankers globally pose big RCS but also big threat with their TVC + HMS guided CCMs. Su-30 had good export success with MKI, MKK, MKM, MKA, etc. They were allowed to have mixed avionics & weapons also. MKI came out of Su-37 then Russian Su-30 SM came out of MKI. But if both sides have HMS guided &/or LOAL CCMs then it is equal opportunity, 50-50 chance.
> At least initially, Export jet is inferior to domestic version, be it from any maker country. They will have reduced capability H/w & S/w. So their sensors, computers, control surfaces, etc will also be slightly slower, unless compensated by local or 3rd party upgrade.
> After watching videos & live performance of MKI, MKM, etc, i don't think that MKI is the best export Flanker, currently, due to less powerul engine, lack of MAWS which MKM has. MKI's turn rate & other maneuvers seem slow.
The Russian Flankers would obviously be expected to be on top.
Among the export models, the Chinese Su-35-S could be on top, followed by MKM, then MKI.

 

[Speedster1]

> Do you have link of American & European news confirming this?

Flying & fighting in the Sukhoi Su-30 ‘Flanker’: A pilot interview

In exercises, engagements are carried out in controlled conditions with restrictions on both sensors and weapons. For example, the radar is operated in training mode to guard against ELINT. So the kill ratios may not necessarily indicate the superiority of one ac over the other. However, in the above link, a Su-30MKI pilot talks about how TVC improves turn rates dramatically over the original Su-30K that we have since returned to Russia.

 

[Speedster1]

But if both sides have HMS guided &/or LOAL CCMs then it is equal opportunity, 50-50 chance.

With the introduction of JHMCS+ AIM-9X CCM, Western AFs have caught up with what was a Russian innovation i.e optical missile aiming, first introduced on the MiG29. Even so, no other AF operationally fields TVC, so the MKI and follow-ons have an advantage. Most opponents facing an MKI will probably try to shoot and scoot from the edge of the engagement zone, like the Pakistanis did in 2019.

 

[Speedster1]

i don't think that MKI is the best export Flanker

Probably not. The MKI was first introduced in 2001. It has lost its edge when it comes to avionics and sensors. Kinematics wise, I'd say she's still better than the MKK and other Chinese copies, inferior to the Su-35S and ofc on par with its cousins like MKM, MKA.

The UPG program should restore her lost edge though, especially if we use composites in the airframe.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Flying & fighting in the Sukhoi Su-30 ‘Flanker’: A pilot interview

In exercises, engagements are carried out in controlled conditions with restrictions on both sensors and weapons. For example, the radar is operated in training mode to guard against ELINT. So the kill ratios may not necessarily indicate the superiority of one ac over the other. However, in the above link, a Su-30MKI pilot talks about how TVC improves turn rates dramatically over the original Su-30K that we have since returned to Russia.

No, that's not the related article. It is true that avionics are operated in training mode in exercises but in that mode also a mutually agreeable public admitance of both +/- points is required. Just like we are quoting 12:0 ratio for our jet, people of other countries might be quoting something which we should know.

With the introduction of JHMCS+ AIM-9X CCM, Western AFs have caught up with what was a Russian innovation i.e optical missile aiming, first introduced on the MiG29. Even so, no other AF operationally fields TVC, so the MKI and follow-ons have an advantage. Most opponents facing an MKI will probably try to shoot and scoot from the edge of the engagement zone, like the Pakistanis did in 2019.

"shoot & scoot" is the 1st BVR tactic to stay out of each other's AAM's NEZ, even for non-TVC jets.
Pakistan J-10CE doesn't have TVC but Chinese J-10C does & J-20 & J-31 will also have it.
And after using TVC the jet's KE bleeds rapidly, losing altitude also & very strong engine(s) would be required to rapidly accelerate again.

Let's consider a scenario of 50% fuel & all AAMs depleted, a pure gunfight. Afterbuner will be used intermitently.
AB T/w ratio in clean config, half internal fuel :
Su-30MKI : (2x123 KN)/9.8 /(18.4+5.5 tons) = 1.05
Su-35-S : (2*137.3 KN) /9.8/(19+5.75 tons) = 1.13
MiG-29 baseline : (2*81.3KN) /9.8/(11+1.75 tons) = 1.3
MiG-29K : (2*88.26 KN) /9.8/(12+2.28 tons) = 1.26
Rafale C : (2x75 KN) /9.8 /(9.9+2.35 tons) = 1.24
EF-2000 : (2x90 KN) /9.8 /(11+2.5 tons) = 1.36
F-15E (no CFTs) : (2*129.7 KN) /9.8/(15.7+2.95 tons) = 1.42
F-22 : (2x 156 to 165 KN) /9.8/(19.7+4.1 tons) = 1.33 to 1.41
F-35C : 192 KN /9.8/(15.7+4.5) = 0.97

So we see the problem here that T/W ratio of most western jets & even MiG-29K are much better than MKI. If we can get AL-41 engine + good domestic lighter radar & other components, then we can improve performance.

This also indicates that AHCA would require a good dry & wet T/W ratio.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Here is the article by renowned Indian journalist Vishnu Som regarding MKI whooping Typhoon 12:0: Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises

MKI has practised with US 5th gen fighters at exercises like Red Flag, Pitch Black etc.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Probably not. The MKI was first introduced in 2001. It has lost its edge when it comes to avionics and sensors. Kinematics wise, I'd say she's still better than the MKK and other Chinese copies, inferior to the Su-35S and ofc on par with its cousins like MKM, MKA.

What makes MKI the best is its versatility. The kind of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons it can fire is simply unprecedented and unparallel. We have continued to evolve it. It now has got Digital-RWR to geo-locate LPI signals of hostile AESA radars. MKM, on the other hand, is still stuck where it was.

The UPG program should restore her lost edge though, especially if we use composites in the airframe.

MKI that was inducted in 2002 isn't the same as the current MKI. We've upgraded it in several Phases and still it continues to evolve. UPG. will be far better than any other Flanker just because of its avionics and other advancements.

 

[Speedster1]

It is true that avionics are operated in training mode in exercises but in that mode also a mutually agreeable public admitance of both +/- points is required

I generally take public figures with a pinch of salt.

Pakistan J-10CE doesn't have TVC but Chinese J-10C does & J-20 & J-31 will also have it

AFAIK, TVC has been tested on a J-10C but not operationally deployed. IIRC, the prototype was flown during Zhuhai airshow a couple of years back.

Fighters I

J-11bg

chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com

And after using TVC the jet's KE bleeds rapidly, losing altitude also & very strong engine(s) would be required to rapidly accelerate again.

Agree. But close in combat is slow because of all the turning.

Let's consider a scenario of 50% fuel & all AAMs depleted, a pure gunfight. Afterbuner will be used intermitently.

Depends on various factors like AoA, altitude, etc plus nose pointing ability to take the first shot (and ofc pilot skill). I'd bet on the MKI precisely because of TVC. But the MKI carries only about 150 rounds of gun ammo and I wouldn't want to linger around, especially if flying over hostile territory. Live to fight another day.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Here is the article by renowned Indian journalist Vishnu Som regarding MKI whooping Typhoon 12:0: Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises

MKI has practised with US 5th gen fighters at exercises like Red Flag, Pitch Black etc.

View attachment 35758

OMG!!!!!! Although F-22 practiced with SE Asian Flankers, If not photoshoped then this is the pic of the decade. The controversial thing is after googling i could find only this pic. It is labled as of 2018, posted in 2022 on Reddit.
Why OFFICIAL IAF & foreign websites have not shared this & more pics???????????