F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

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Gripen or F-16? It’s a dogfight

While the Tatas have tied up with Lockheed, SAAB is aligning with the Adani group
After several dramatic twists and turns, as the Air Force looks at procuring a new single engine fighter, the Adani group is emerging as the dark horse that could end up manufacturing a large number of India’s future fighters.
The IAF is now working on issuing Request for Information (RFI) to the two single-engine fighter manufacturers available in the global market — Lockheed Martin for its F-16 and SAAB for its Gripen. While the Tata group has tied up with Lockheed Martin for possible manufacture of F-16s in India, SAAB last week announced a tie-up with the Adani group.
“In the present scheme of things, Gripen enjoys a clear advantage because of its capabilities,” says an Air Force source. While the F-16 is 50 years old, the Gripen is a four-and-a-half generation fighter of very recent vintage.
The IAF had sent out an informal request asking the two manufacturers details of their products. Based on the input and other analysis, the RFI would be issued under the Strategic Partnership model in a couple of months, officers said. The target would be to acquire at least 100 fighters in the first stage, but the demand is expected to go up further now.
The government will select the preferred aircraft and its Indian partner based on submissions. Once selected, the manufacturing plant for the selected fighter is to be set up in India, with the Indian partner holding the majority stake in the venture.
MMRCA process in mess
“By not taking a quick decision and dragging its feet, the government has messed up the MMRCA [Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft] process,” says Air Marshal (retired) M Matheswaran, who played a crucial role in drawing up the requirements and conceptualising its original tender in the early 2000s.
“[The] original MMRCA was not only to get fighters but also to get technology here in India. All those objectives have been defeated,” he said.
The IAF in 2001 projected a requirement for 126 fighters, to fill the gap between its future indigenous light combat aircraft and the heavy-weight Sukhoi-30 fighters.
Though the initial move was to buy more Mirage 2000 fighters, it evolved into the MMRCA global tender.
In January 2012, the twin-engine Rafale fighter was declared the winner, and finally negotiations began with its French manufacturers.
Air Force sources point out that the only reason the government has now put out the present single-engine requirement is the cost.
The purchase of 36 Rafale fighters from France not only surprised most military sources but also upset the financial projects for the fleet modernisation, sources say.
Air Force sources point out that the requirement is now for over 200 fighters, and the Rafales are being limited to just 36.

Gripen or F-16? It’s a dogfight
 
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Even though the F-16 is a proven platform, it might be worthwhile to focus on the Gripen as it is a much newer platform with possibilities of evolving further, while the airframe design of the F-16 is decades old. Having said that, I would still prefer to see evolution of the Tejas platform. We desperately need to back our home grown aeronautics industry. You have to have a thriving air and space industry to ensure global power projection in the long run.
 
Comparison


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Saab Gripen E content origin
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US military firms want security of classified defence info in India for JVs
PTI | Dec 10, 2017, 16:25 IST

HIGHLIGHTS
  • A top USIBC official said they want a govt-to-govt pact to facilitate the transfer of defence info to the Indian firms.
  • The USIBC has been playing a pro-active role in forging greater collaboration between Indian and American defence industries.
  • Indo-US defence ties are on an upswing and both New Delhi and Washington have said they are committed to expanding it further.
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US F-18 fighter jets from Marine station Miramar fly over Qualcomm Stadium in San Diego, California. (Reuters File Photo)

NEW DELHI: Leading US defence firms are pushing for a specific framework in India to ensure the safety and security of critical technology and classified defence information when they are shared with the private sector for joint ventures in the country.

A top official of the US-India Business Council (USIBC) said they also want a government-to-government agreement to facilitate the transfer of classified defence technology and information to the Indian private sector besides clarity on issues relating to liability, intellectual property rights and industrial safety.

Benjamin Schwartz, senior director for Defense and Aerospace at the Washington-based USIBC, said there was no provision for sharing classified defence information by American companies with the Indian private sector at present and a government-to-government agreement was necessary to facilitate it.

"US companies are willing to ensure transfer of critical technology to India but the Indian government has to ensure protection of critical and classified technology," he told PTI in an interview.

Schwartz, who held extensive talks with the defence establishment here on several sticky issues during a visit to India, said under the existing framework, American companies can share classified information and technology with India's defence public sector undertakings (DPSUs) and not with the private sector.

"Right now, there is no mechanism in place to allow the US companies to extend classified information to private Indian industries," he said, adding it was for New Delhi to initiate the process for a government-to-government agreement to remove the hurdle.

The USIBC has been playing a pro-active role in forging greater collaboration between Indian and American defence industries.

Holding that the American industry was very supportive of India's strategic partnership model, he said the Indian government needed to come out with a timeline for various acquisition programmes, besides establishing a framework for the safety of classified information and technology.

"They need to establish procedures to ensure security of defence technology here. What I mean by it is that the reality in India and also in the US and around the world is that information is being stolen ... We have to set up procedures to make sure that our defence technology is secure (in India)," he said.

Schwartz said Washington "definitely" wanted to go for an agreement to facilitate the transfer of classified information and technology by American companies to India and that "it is about getting things done in New Delhi."

He said the American private defence industry was in touch with the Trump administration on the issue of technology transfer to India and the US government has been very supportive of such collaborations.

"We held extensive conversations with the US government on technology transfer. We are very pleased that there has been a lot of continuity in US policy. The Trump administration wants to continue to prioritise technology release to India. It is also going to be re-articulated in US law this year," he said.

Schwartz said the USIBC supports Modi government's policy initiative to ensure a level playing field for the DPSUs and India's private sector defence industry.

"We can help support this through an agreement that will allow us to share classified information with the private sector industry," he said.

A number of American defence giants including Boeing and Lockheed Martin are eyeing billions of dollars of contracts in India and have already offered to manufacture some of their key military platforms in India while forging joint ventures with Indian companies.

link: US military firms want security of classified defence info in India for JVs - Times of India
 
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Sweden offers to produce and export Gripen fighters from India
Wednesday, December 13, 2017
By: Times Now News



Reiterating Sweden's commitment to partner with India, Swedish Defence Secretary Jan Salestrand on Tuesday hinted that Sweden may offer to export its state-of-the-art Gripen fighter to the world from India.

In an exclusive interview with Times Now, Salestrand said that in case of a strategic cooperation with India on the Gripen fighter, Sweden "plans" to set up facilities and recruit personnel, who in turn can manufacture the aircraft from Indian soil. Salestrand's comments are significant on the backdrop of a push to Make in India by the present day government.

"They (SAAB- manufacturer of Gripen) plan to build a new plant here in India. They plan and recruit new personnel and set up a full facility. And I think that could be a good idea because it is easier then to get going. Probably, the first planes will be built in Sweden and quickly, the production could be done more or less in India," Salestrand told Times Now.

"We have some Gripen customers already, which we are happy. Brazil is one major customer that we will deliver 36 aircraft to within some years and hopefully, there would be another batch later on. So the more we will be in a very expensive and a technically advanced project like this, the better it will be for everyone. That remains to be seen. I can see that there is a great interest from a number of countries," he further said.

While the Indian government is likely to roll out a Request for Information (RFI) early next year, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has expressed an interest in the fighter which was in the competition to India's multirole fighter.

Sweden, it is learnt, has already submitted documents to the Defence Ministry reiterating its commitment to the project, Salestrand said that Sweden looks at India as a strategic partner and that the number of planes to be supplied is "totally up to India".

"As I understand, it is a matter of more than 100 planes in the longer run. That remains to be seen," he said. "We see it as equal level (partnership) and we will try to share as much as we can," he added when asked about the Transfer of Technology.

Source: Times Now
 
As per a source based input, Saab is actually the front runner for the SE deal, but this will see movement only in Mid 2018. Saab is also offering MII irrespective of bagging the IAF contract, however at this stage it may just be posturing. US will be pacified by some other hardware deal, probably naval helos.
 
they will give us nothing except for some small tech like how to peel potatoes.

and
@randomradio @Aashish

I have said this from the day the MMRCA deal winner was announced. And have not changed my opinion even once, which am sure you are aware.

The IAF wants the Rafale. End of story. 250+ are coming. DRAL is going to deliver these. Again, I believe in not what politicians and media say, but what business does with money on the ground.

The current political dispensation, can do whatever it wants. But, without the 250 Rafales, the IAF is not going to approve anything with the Americans. Hell, they do not want the F-16. Talk to any higher up in the IAF, they will tell you the same. What they do want is a lower tier fighter which has tech. What they are playing at is, we drag the issue till the politicos realise the Americans are not a good choice for frontline critical war machines.

There is no F-16 coming. The French are doing business the way it should be done. Quietly and behind closed doors. What will the Americans be given? Drones and transport. Which by the way is a huge thing, if the forces combine their requirements.


Btw, any new updates on your project? No thread on this forum?
 
25438734_1067821116692905_7944356735075993586_o.jpg

A scaled model of SAAB AJ-37 Viggen as a member of IAF.

In late 70s after scrapping of HF-73, India was interested in this Swedish beauty. SAAB too was eager to supply to it's potential biggest customer. But Uncle Sam intervened to maintain 'his reputation' and objected of selling as Viggen would sport RM8/JT8D US origin engine. Viggen was to be license built in India as an fighter attacker. Unfortunately the deal was never commenced due to US pressure. Later India bought Jaguar instead.

SAAB now once again pitched another jet JAS 39 Gripen to IAF. This time with ToT offer, but this time too, SAAB does not hold alone 100% technology of that aircraft.

Now, some of us are still believe that if IAF select the Swedish bird than there will be no offense from uncle SAM.. I believe Saab was/is never in the picture..

Your views.. by assuming Saab as a selected SE jet..

@ashkum2278 @ashkum2278 @Ashutosh @Aashish @vstol Jockey @Picdelamirand-oil @Ashwin @randomradio @ranadd @Bon Plan @Levina @Kshithij Sharma @Parthu @Parul @BlackOpsIndia & all others
 
If India abolishes/scraps or discards MK2 story completely, i dont mind Gripen E as MK2 but would like to use its FOC date and mate it with a Safransied kaveri as well as look at say a similar radar and avionics as present in Indian MIC ecosystem. Be it a Thales based radar or even Dare based RWR etc..

Weapons i would like it to be common between LCA Mk1A/ Gripen E and Rafales.

Presumably, i would like Gripen E to be of limited number not beyond say what was envisioned for Mk2 sqd numbers.

Also one must understand that Gripen E as Mk2 is just a light to lower strata medium fighter.. There is no way it can replace twin engined Rafales in a true medium category or in ops. For us Gripen E will become a FW base fighter jet only. Like the other contender F-16.


The downside of course will be that with Mk2 replaced, AMCA will also need time and French cooperation in a joint effort (if we go that path) , will need good confidence building measures with orders for Rafales and involvement in projects liek LCA and gripen E /LCA Mk2.

The possibility of say 80 odd LCA Mk2a and 90 odd Gripen E with almost limited commanlity will be worst course of action and decision making ever. Whatever be the circumstances, striving for commanlity is the key for future for all jets which go in FW bases and are SE fighters with missions envisioned for LCA series of aircraft
 
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As per a source based input, Saab is actually the front runner for the SE deal, but this will see movement only in Mid 2018. Saab is also offering MII irrespective of bagging the IAF contract, however at this stage it may just be posturing. US will be pacified by some other hardware deal, probably naval helos.
Modi don't think the same, no?
And at the end it's the politics that inked a deal.
 
As I remember that Rajiv Gandhi (then only the son of Indira) was suggested by SAAB to purchase this plane and this was then the most advance plane and also most expensive.

25438734_1067821116692905_7944356735075993586_o.jpg

A scaled model of SAAB AJ-37 Viggen as a member of IAF.

In late 70s after scrapping of HF-73, India was interested in this Swedish beauty. SAAB too was eager to supply to it's potential biggest customer. But Uncle Sam intervened to maintain 'his reputation' and objected of selling as Viggen would sport RM8/JT8D US origin engine. Viggen was to be license built in India as an fighter attacker. Unfortunately the deal was never commenced due to US pressure. Later India bought Jaguar instead.

SAAB now once again pitched another jet JAS 39 Gripen to IAF. This time with ToT offer, but this time too, SAAB does not hold alone 100% technology of that aircraft.

Now, some of us are still believe that if IAF select the Swedish bird than there will be no offense from uncle SAM.. I believe Saab was/is never in the picture..

Your views.. by assuming Saab as a selected SE jet..

@ashkum2278 @ashkum2278 @Ashutosh @Aashish @vstol Jockey @Picdelamirand-oil @Ashwin @randomradio @ranadd @Bon Plan @Levina @Kshithij Sharma @Parthu @Parul @BlackOpsIndia & all others
 
Gripen E has nothing to offer as ToT. It has no radar, no engine. Even the airframe is metallic. Moreover, Gripen E hasn't achieved even IOC. India is already making tejas and is building MK2 version which will have similar power as gripen E and is about to take off soon. India already has UTTAM radar, Kaveri engine is in final stages of development and most other equipments like EW, SPJ, LDP etc are relatively simple job which can be completed in a few years.

Gripen has never been a good fighter and has almost always sold after offering loans, high offsets or bribes. SAAB is a company with poor standards of marketing, even to the extent of telling extraordinary lies and fake news. Adding this to the lack of any IP rights with SAAB, there seems to be no reason to buy Gripen.

India will go only for Tejas Mk2 as SE plane while ignoring F16 or Gripen. There is no reason to buy foreign planes when one can make customised indigenous ones.
 
Gripen has never been a good fighter
I don't think it's totally true.

It is a very agile platform, and quite affordable. But developped as a light fighter, it can't offer medium plane perf (range, load).

It's a nice fighter for peacefull country. But when you need to be ready for war, maybe a little bit more away from your own borders, it's not a first choice.

In the indian case, as a Mig21 replacement, it's a nice solution. But THE nice solution is Tejas.
As a replacement for Mig 23 and Mig 27, it's too light.
 
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