Rafale M of Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

Well, as anticipated the TEDBF program is pretty much dead or in the cold storage. Why ? Coz IN seems determined to get the balance 31 Naval FAs in the form of Rafale M, it envisaged in the original MRCBF tender which was eventually truncated to 26 .

All that talk of fulfilling the rest of the requirement thru TEDBF was just that... tall talks.

I mean they're not even concealing it anymore at this point. All they're doing is awaiting the signing of the agreement between GoI / MoD & DA to fulfill the requirements of the IAF. Then they'd make their move.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Reading too many X post regarding the modifications to the wings of the Rafale M just to fit the lift of the vikrant ! - how much Truth is in that ?

All we had to do was treat the wing tip as a pylon and make it removable, just like the other pylons.

Well, as anticipated the TEDBF program is pretty much dead or in the cold storage. Why ? Coz IN seems determined to get the balance 31 Naval FAs in the form of Rafale M, it envisaged in the original MRCBF tender which was eventually truncated to 26 .

All that talk of fulfilling the rest of the requirement thru TEDBF was just that... tall talks.

I mean they're not even concealing it anymore at this point. All they're doing is awaiting the signing of the agreement between GoI / MoD & DA to fulfill the requirements of the IAF. Then they'd make their move.

Frankly, programmes like the TEDBF are nothing more than PowerPoint presentations – manoeuvres by HAL to delay the arrival of the Rafale. The only serious programmes are the LCA Mk2 and the AMCA, but they are both dependent on the F414, which is not reassuring. France could help with a derivative of the M88 TREX, but as usual, you’ll be asking for this help too late.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rafale Marine fighter begins flight trials in Goa ahead of Indian Navy induction​

New Delhi: The naval variant of France’s Rafale fighter is carrying out flight trials in Goa as India prepares for its formal induction into the Indian Navy, sources have confirmed. The aircraft is conducting a series of test flights to verify that it meets the operational requirements for operations from Indian aircraft carriers, according to sources who spoke to WION. The evaluations form part of the preparatory process before the jets enter service with the Navy.

India signed a contract with France in 2025 for 26 Dassault Rafale Marine aircraft. The order comprises 22 single-seat fighters configured for carrier operations and four twin-seat trainer aircraft. The deal, valued at approximately ₹63,000–64,000 crore (about $7.5 billion), also includes training, simulators, weapons, associated equipment and performance-based logistics support. Deliveries are expected to begin from mid-2028 and be completed by around 2030.

The Rafale Marine was selected after evaluation against the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet. The jets are intended primarily for the indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, with operations also envisaged from INS Vikramaditya. They will gradually replace the Navy’s ageing MiG-29K fleet, which has faced serviceability challenges.

The acquisition strengthens the Navy’s long-range maritime strike and air defence capabilities. The contract includes provisions for technology transfer to integrate indigenous Indian weapons systems, along with local manufacturing elements such as fuselage production and maintenance, repair and overhaul facilities. India already operates 36 land-based Rafales with the Air Force, making it the first country outside France to field both variants of the aircraft.

 

[Rune]

TEDBF will not happen as long as Navy only has 2 active carriers. Govt. is unwilling to fund a third carrier so TEDBF is pretty much dead.

 

[Speedster1]

TEDBF will not happen as long as Navy only has 2 active carriers. Govt. is unwilling to fund a third carrier so TEDBF is pretty much dead.

Vikramaditya cannot be kept in service much beyond 2040. That makes IAC-2 a priority. Besides, the IN seems interested in another 26 Rafale-M for which a 2nd carrier will be required.

Besides, I doubt the Russians would agree to let us fly the Rafale off the Vikramaditya. Had there been the slightest chance of that happening, the IN would've never bought the MiG-29K in the first place.

If GoI can find the funds for 4 × 30K ton LPDs, then it can pay for IAC-2 as well.

TEDBF will not happen as long as Navy only has 2 active carriers. Govt. is unwilling to fund a third carrier so TEDBF is pretty much dead.

Vikramaditya cannot be kept in service much beyond 2040. That makes IAC-2 a priority. Besides, the IN seems interested in another 26 Rafale-M for which a 2nd carrier will be required.

Besides, I doubt the Russians would agree to let us fly the Rafale off the Vikramaditya. Had there been the slightest chance of that happening, the IN would've never bought the MiG-29K in the first place.

If GoI can find the funds for 4 × 30K ton LPDs, then it can pay for IAC-2 as well.

 

[Ashwin]

Besides, I doubt the Russians would agree to let us fly the Rafale off the Vikramaditya. Had there been the slightest chance of that happening, the IN would've never bought the MiG-29K in the first place.

Why would we need approval today from Russians to operate Rafale from a ship that we purchased? Mig-29K was purchased in 2003-04 timeline, there was no Rafale-M to even consider then. You cant just order carrier without thinking about fighters onboard.

 

[Speedster1]

Why would we need approval today from Russians to operate Rafale from a ship that we purchased? Mig-29K was purchased in 2003-04 timeline, there was no Rafale-M to even consider then. You cant just order carrier without thinking about fighters onboard.

It could void warranties + interfacing Rafale with Vikram's Russian combat mgmt system/flight control would require OEM involvement which is currently restricted under the EU arms embargo. Iirc Rafale M was flying around 2004 and the IN did consider a French offer for the ex-FS Clemenceau before choosing to go with the Russian Gorshkov.

Brazil eventually bought a Clemenceau class carrier and outfitted it with US origin A4K Skyhawks.

 

[Ashwin]

It could void warranties + interfacing Rafale with Vikram's Russian combat mgmt system/flight control would require OEM involvement which is currently restricted under the EU arms embargo. Iirc Rafale M was flying around 2004 and the IN did consider a French offer for the ex-FS Clemenceau before choosing to go with the Russian Gorshkov.

Brazil eventually bought a Clemenceau class carrier and outfitted it with US origin A4K Skyhawks.

Nothing like that exist. Restriction are mostly hardware like arrester hook. Thats now indian made. There is no combat management system integration required its all communication related which again all indian.

Rafale M was never considered for Vikki then not outside of it.

https://www.pib.gov.in/PressNoteDetails.aspx?ModuleId=3&NoteId=154353&reg=20&lang=1

They are actually saying it can operate from both carriers.

 

[Anupu]

It could void warranties + interfacing Rafale with Vikram's Russian combat mgmt system/flight control would require OEM involvement which is currently restricted under the EU arms embargo. Iirc Rafale M was flying around 2004 and the IN did consider a French offer for the ex-FS Clemenceau before choosing to go with the Russian Gorshkov.

Brazil eventually bought a Clemenceau class carrier and outfitted it with US origin A4K Skyhawks.

Wasn't the elevator arrangement the reason Rafales are not put on the Vikramaditya.

 

[Rune]

Vikramaditya cannot be kept in service much beyond 2040. That makes IAC-2 a priority. Besides, the IN seems interested in another 26 Rafale-M for which a 2nd carrier will be required.

Besides, I doubt the Russians would agree to let us fly the Rafale off the Vikramaditya. Had there been the slightest chance of that happening, the IN would've never bought the MiG-29K in the first place.

If GoI can find the funds for 4 × 30K ton LPDs, then it can pay for IAC-2 as well.

I said a fleet of 2 active carriers. Govt. is only wiling to fund vikramaditya's replacement Without a third carrier TEDBF makes no sense financially.

 

[Speedster1]

Wasn't the elevator arrangement the reason Rafales are not put on the Vikramaditya.

View attachment 54515

Iirc, Rafale does fit diagonally on the aft lift which is reportedly bigger/longer.

 

[Speedster1]

Nothing like that exist. Restriction are mostly hardware like arrester hook. Thats now indian made. There is no combat management system integration required its all communication related which again all indian.

Rafale M was never considered for Vikki then not outside of it.

View attachment 54514

https://www.pib.gov.in/PressNoteDetails.aspx?ModuleId=3&NoteId=154353&reg=20&lang=1

They are actually saying it can operate from both carriers.

I just don't see Vikram operating both MiG-29K and Rafale simultaneously. It is a STOBAR medium carrier after all with a huge island that sits smack in the middle of the deck.

As long MiG-29K remains in service, Rafale will likely fly only off the Vikrant for political and logistics/maintenance reasons, imo.

 

[_Anonymous_]

All we had to do was treat the wing tip as a pylon and make it removable, just like the other pylons.

Frankly, programmes like the TEDBF are nothing more than PowerPoint presentations – manoeuvres by HAL to delay the arrival of the Rafale.

PowerPoint presentations - manoeuvres by HAL to delay Rafales?

Where did you get this idea from? TEDBF isn't even HAL's baby. It's being developed by ADA with inputs from IN who incidentally kicked off the project themselves when the ADA designed N-LCA didn't meet their requirements. Now they seem to be singing a different tune.

The only serious programmes are the LCA Mk2 and the AMCA, but they are both dependent on the F414, which is not reassuring.

The F-414 will come. As usual like everything we plan, the execution happens at a stretched time scale.

France could help with a derivative of the M88 TREX, but as usual, you’ll be asking for this help too late.

We've gone far too down the road to consider an alternative power plant. And it's not as if TREX is available off the shelf . SAFRAN will have its own development cum delivery schedule. Plus they'd come for a pretty price.

 

[Choice_of _inevitability]

TEDBF makes no sense financially

When you don't have a naval AWACS supporting the fighters, and you are flying a non-stealth platform against the enemies expected to deploy more advanced aircraft, it doesn't make tactical sense either. CCA aren't a magic wand that'll make the inherent ISR shortfalls go away.
High end CCA will eat up as much space as a significantly more capable manned aircraft and low-end expendable ones won't cut it.

Sure it's cheaper to operate, that's good for peacetime air-policing operations but that's not a war fighter.

 

[_Anonymous_]

TEDBF will not happen as long as Navy only has 2 active carriers. Govt. is unwilling to fund a third carrier so TEDBF is pretty much dead.

GoI has yet to sanction the IAC-2 project which is a replacement for INS Vikramaditya , an analogue of the INS Vikrant & can be delivered within 7-8 years from order & payment.

I suspect the purchase of the additional Rafales will be for the INS Vikramaditya till such time as the IAC-2 isn't delivered to the IN.

I don't see the second order for Rafale M being placed before the delivery of the first lot has been completed. That's expected to go up until 2030-31 by which time hopefully the agreement between DA & GoI / MoD would've been signed & the plant to mfg / assemble the Rafales in India would have been either set up or would be in the last stages of being set up.

I also expect the order for the IAC-2 to be placed before that timeline. Delivery would obviously take 7-8 years from placement of the order.

I said a fleet of 2 active carriers. Govt. is only wiling to fund vikramaditya's replacement Without a third carrier TEDBF makes no sense financially.

IMO the IAC -3 would receive the go ahead in the mid 30s . Frankly we haven't even seen the IN commission any studies on what the IAC -3 will be all about.

They need to approach the MoD for clearance & initial funding. They've yet to do so. The go ahead for the study has no bearing whatsoever on whether the MoD sanctions such a project. So I really don't know what's happening on that front.

 

[_Anonymous_]

When you don't have a naval AWACS supporting the fighters, and you are flying a non-stealth platform against the enemies expected to deploy more advanced aircraft, it doesn't make tactical sense either. CCA aren't a magic wand that'll make the inherent ISR shortfalls go away.
High end CCA will eat up as much space as a significantly more capable manned aircraft and low-end expendable ones won't cut it.

Sure it's cheaper to operate, that's good for peacetime air-policing operations but that's not a war fighter.

The world's moving to Satellite Based ISR capabilities. With StarLink already deployed & with the Chinese deploying their own constellation of satellites it's only a matter of time before EU Russia India etc follow suit.

How effective would a stealth platform be under such circumstances not to mention the need for a Naval based AWACS?! In any case the IN is pursuing such a project with the C-295 as the platform in the form of the MRMR except it's land based. We are already flying the P-8i.

Add to that the Naval Predator Drones we'd be procuring , multiple CCAs & other force multipliers & all the building blocks to assemble a carrier based task force is already in place.

 

[Speedster1]

I said a fleet of 2 active carriers. Govt. is only wiling to fund vikramaditya's replacement Without a third carrier TEDBF makes no sense financially.

Once the Rafale-M deal was signed , there was no room for another medium weight 4.5G jet on the INs carrier decks, anyway. The single engine LCA-N Mk2 would've complemented Rafale perfectly but that design too was scuttled too soon.

Now the focus is on a stealth MRCBF.