Japan offers Mogami Class Frigate to Indian Navy.

[spice]

Defence secretary tours Japan’s JS Niyodo amid Mogami frigate pitch to India

NEW DELHI: Amid Japan’s historic loosening of its post-war arms export curbs, Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh visited the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force

www.newindianexpress.com

Amid Japan’s historic loosening of its post-war arms export curbs, Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh visited the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force’s (JMSDF) JS Niyodo during his trip to Japan, as Tokyo steps up efforts to secure an Indian order for its Mogami-class stealth frigates through an offer of technology transfer and local production.
Singh toured the seventh Mogami-class frigate at the Kure naval base in Hiroshima and met Vice Admiral Matsumoto Tamotsu, Commandant of the Kure District. “The visit reaffirmed the commitment of India-Japan to further strengthen maritime security cooperation and deepen defence ties,” the defence ministry said Tuesday.

The choice of platform was significant. The frigate is the first Mogami-class frigate built with the Mk 41 vertical launching system from the outset and the first of the class to be based at Kure, one of Japan’s five principal naval bases overlooking the East China Sea.

The visit comes as India evaluates Japan’s proposal to manufacture the Mogami-class frigates domestically under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

Sources in the know told TNIE that Tokyo has offered to transfer the design and production rights for the warships, along with critical technologies, marking a significant departure from Japan’s traditionally restrictive defence export policy.

The proposal is also understood to include integration of Indian systems such as the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, with construction likely to be undertaken by either Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders or Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers. If it materialises, it will be Japan’s first major defence platform export to India.

The proposal will also be weighed against the Navy’s indigenous warship-building plans. With the seven Project 17 Alpha frigates nearly completing commissioning and a follow-on Project 17 Bravo programme under consideration, introducing a new foreign design would create a parallel logistics and maintenance chain, despite Japan’s reported offer of full technology transfer.

The stop at Kure followed Singh’s meetings in Tokyo with Japanese Defence Minister Shinjiro Koizumi and Vice Minister Kano Koji, during which the two sides reviewed regional security, maritime cooperation, defence industrial collaboration, cyber security and space cooperation.

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

Is this proposal real?? I thought it was just gossip.
If real, I hope they dont include PSU shipyards. Let competition from pvt shipyards break the monopoly of babu-run shipyards. Rope in L&T or some other pvt shipyard.

There was always a need for smaller mass produced frigates. Goa Shipyard Limited was roped in to build 2 last talwar class frigates as a way of testing whether a new shipyard could handle this. Thats not going well. This would be a good opportunity to create more competition. L&T's success would open opportunities for exports.

 

[Speedster1]

Defence secretary tours Japan’s JS Niyodo amid Mogami frigate pitch to India

NEW DELHI: Amid Japan’s historic loosening of its post-war arms export curbs, Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh visited the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force

www.newindianexpress.com

Amid Japan’s historic loosening of its post-war arms export curbs, Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh visited the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force’s (JMSDF) JS Niyodo during his trip to Japan, as Tokyo steps up efforts to secure an Indian order for its Mogami-class stealth frigates through an offer of technology transfer and local production.
Singh toured the seventh Mogami-class frigate at the Kure naval base in Hiroshima and met Vice Admiral Matsumoto Tamotsu, Commandant of the Kure District. “The visit reaffirmed the commitment of India-Japan to further strengthen maritime security cooperation and deepen defence ties,” the defence ministry said Tuesday.

The choice of platform was significant. The frigate is the first Mogami-class frigate built with the Mk 41 vertical launching system from the outset and the first of the class to be based at Kure, one of Japan’s five principal naval bases overlooking the East China Sea.

The visit comes as India evaluates Japan’s proposal to manufacture the Mogami-class frigates domestically under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

Sources in the know told TNIE that Tokyo has offered to transfer the design and production rights for the warships, along with critical technologies, marking a significant departure from Japan’s traditionally restrictive defence export policy.

The proposal is also understood to include integration of Indian systems such as the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, with construction likely to be undertaken by either Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders or Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers. If it materialises, it will be Japan’s first major defence platform export to India.

The proposal will also be weighed against the Navy’s indigenous warship-building plans. With the seven Project 17 Alpha frigates nearly completing commissioning and a follow-on Project 17 Bravo programme under consideration, introducing a new foreign design would create a parallel logistics and maintenance chain, despite Japan’s reported offer of full technology transfer.

The stop at Kure followed Singh’s meetings in Tokyo with Japanese Defence Minister Shinjiro Koizumi and Vice Minister Kano Koji, during which the two sides reviewed regional security, maritime cooperation, defence industrial collaboration, cyber security and space cooperation.

No chance we'd ever buy Mogami. It features a crew complement of just 90. The IN prefers higher manning levels to better manage battle damage, etc.

I can't imagine we'd agree to downgrading the automation levels to fit our concept of ops.

If Japan is serious about def co-op with India, they should offer ToT for Soryu/Taigei SSK under P76. But they won't.

 

[Aniruddha]

No chance we'd ever buy Mogami. It features a crew complement of just 90. The IN prefers higher manning levels to better manage battle damage, etc.

I can't imagine we'd agree to downgrading the automation levels to fit our concept of ops.

If Japan is serious about def co-op with India, they should offer ToT for Soryu/Taigei SSK under P76. But they won't.

Not just that, we don't have a single missile in our arsenal that is compatible with the Mk41 VLS.
Also the ship's depth is barely a foot longer than the length of a standalone Brahmos, let alone a one inside of a UVLM container.

 

[GuardianRED]

Think we are looking at overall design and layout especially in the Unicorn Mast , CIC and much Higher level of stealth BUT fitted with Indian weapons and equipment.

Hope this is true ! this will be exciting !

 

[Speedster1]

Not just that, we don't have a single missile in our arsenal that is compatible with the Mk41 VLS.
Also the ship's depth is barely a foot longer than the length of a standalone Brahmos, let alone a one inside of a UVLM container.

The specs of the latest 'Improved Mogami' production variant (142m, 6200t) are close to P17/17A. Imo, what we need is a smaller ~4000t hull to supplement and eventually replace the Talwar class.

Incidentally, the upcoming NGC is expected to be a 120m, 3500t hull too. So, there's no slot in our fleet where Mogami would be a good fit.

 

[Shan]

The specs of the latest 'Improved Mogami' production variant (142m, 6200t) are close to P17/17A. Imo, what we need is a smaller ~4000t hull to supplement and eventually replace the Talwar class.

Incidentally, the upcoming NGC is expected to be a 120m, 3500t hull too. So, there's no slot in our fleet where Mogami would be a good fit.

I understand that certain groups within India would be excited by the idea. This is another one of those ideas that is sponsored and floated around to gauge reactions. There was another doing rounds recently - Buying the Gripen to replace Rafales/Tejas in order to "modernise" IAF inventory efficiently and quickly.

I see that the "high" ToT kool-aid has been added to the offer to sweeten the deal.

If the MoD can deliver what the IN already has in pipeline or as a WIP within projected timelines, that itself would be an achievement.

 

[Speedster1]

I understand that certain groups within India would be excited by the idea. This is another one of those ideas that is sponsored and floated around to gauge reactions. There was another doing rounds recently - Buying the Gripen to replace Rafales/Tejas in order to "modernise" IAF inventory efficiently and quickly.

I see that the "high" ToT kool-aid has been added to the offer to sweeten the deal.

If the MoD can deliver what the IN already has in pipeline or as a WIP within projected timelines, that itself would be an achievement.

The Unicorn deal itself has been stuck at the MoU stage for years now and that's only an antenna. Mogami will likely take even longer.

Heck look how long it's taking for the Shinkansen E5/10 bullet train deal to be signed. Negotiations have been going on since at least 2017.

 

[RISING SUN]

Defence secretary tours Japan’s JS Niyodo amid Mogami frigate pitch to India

NEW DELHI: Amid Japan’s historic loosening of its post-war arms export curbs, Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh visited the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force

www.newindianexpress.com

Amid Japan’s historic loosening of its post-war arms export curbs, Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh visited the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force’s (JMSDF) JS Niyodo during his trip to Japan, as Tokyo steps up efforts to secure an Indian order for its Mogami-class stealth frigates through an offer of technology transfer and local production.
Singh toured the seventh Mogami-class frigate at the Kure naval base in Hiroshima and met Vice Admiral Matsumoto Tamotsu, Commandant of the Kure District. “The visit reaffirmed the commitment of India-Japan to further strengthen maritime security cooperation and deepen defence ties,” the defence ministry said Tuesday.

The choice of platform was significant. The frigate is the first Mogami-class frigate built with the Mk 41 vertical launching system from the outset and the first of the class to be based at Kure, one of Japan’s five principal naval bases overlooking the East China Sea.

The visit comes as India evaluates Japan’s proposal to manufacture the Mogami-class frigates domestically under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

Sources in the know told TNIE that Tokyo has offered to transfer the design and production rights for the warships, along with critical technologies, marking a significant departure from Japan’s traditionally restrictive defence export policy.

The proposal is also understood to include integration of Indian systems such as the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, with construction likely to be undertaken by either Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders or Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers. If it materialises, it will be Japan’s first major defence platform export to India.

The proposal will also be weighed against the Navy’s indigenous warship-building plans. With the seven Project 17 Alpha frigates nearly completing commissioning and a follow-on Project 17 Bravo programme under consideration, introducing a new foreign design would create a parallel logistics and maintenance chain, despite Japan’s reported offer of full technology transfer.

The stop at Kure followed Singh’s meetings in Tokyo with Japanese Defence Minister Shinjiro Koizumi and Vice Minister Kano Koji, during which the two sides reviewed regional security, maritime cooperation, defence industrial collaboration, cyber security and space cooperation.

An opinion piece. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Ashwin]

I understand that certain groups within India would be excited by the idea. This is another one of those ideas that is sponsored and floated around to gauge reactions. There was another doing rounds recently - Buying the Gripen to replace Rafales/Tejas in order to "modernise" IAF inventory efficiently and quickly.

I see that the "high" ToT kool-aid has been added to the offer to sweeten the deal.

If the MoD can deliver what the IN already has in pipeline or as a WIP within projected timelines, that itself would be an achievement.

This doesnt sound like that. This is part of a routine visit of our main babu when he was shown the ship.

We do the same. Tejas a superb aircraft, says Singapore Defence Minister

 

[Ashwin]

Think we are looking at overall design and layout especially in the Unicorn Mast , CIC and much Higher level of stealth BUT fitted with Indian weapons and equipment.

Hope this is true ! this will be exciting !

I also believe that this is the only direction in which this deal is possible.

32 x MRSAM, 8 x Brahmos-NG or NASM-MR, Indian sensors, CIC, Unicorn etc. We have already chosen the MT30 GT for future ships.

Extremely attractive-looking ship nonetheless.

 

[spice]

An opinion piece. Nothing more nothing less.

Nope, second person to report this. First to report.

 

[batman]

Why do we even need this platform when our own platform is already more capable than theirs? Their only main advantage is better automation which doesn't affect real world performance much and better stealth which I'm also not sure how significant it's gonna be in real world combat considering it's probably gonna be part of a task force among older and bigger ships.

Our Nilgiri class frigates have similar or more VLS cells depending on configuration of Mogami, better Anti Ship Missiles, better Air Defence, better strike capability. There is not much gain to buy this platform instead of inducting more of our own ship. Not to mention our Next Generation frigates will be even more powerful, advanced and capable. The only benefit I see is collaborating on a new platform where we acquire better automation, very low acoustic signature, advanced mine warfare and unmanned integration, high quality manufacturing and lifecycle efficiency from Japan.

 

[Ashwin]

Why do we even need this platform when our own platform is already more capable than theirs? Their only main advantage is better automation which doesn't affect real world performance much and better stealth which I'm also not sure how significant it's gonna be in real world combat considering it's probably gonna be part of a task force among older and bigger ships.

Our Nilgiri class frigates have similar or more VLS cells depending on configuration of Mogami, better Anti Ship Missiles, better Air Defence, better strike capability. There is not much gain to buy this platform instead of inducting more of our own ship. Not to mention our Next Generation frigates will be even more powerful, advanced and capable. The only benefit I see is collaborating on a new platform where we acquire better automation, very low acoustic signature, advanced mine warfare and unmanned integration, high quality manufacturing and lifecycle efficiency from Japan.

This will not be a replacement of Nilgiri line but Talwar line. Project 17C is already moving ahead with approvals.

We have a two-tier frigate system. It's a high-low mix that allows us to achieve numbers at an affordable cost. Think of it as Type 26 and Type 31 of Royal navy. Which is why we keep ordering Talwars when we have our own P17 design. Talwar costs $500-600 Million when P-17B was $1+ billion.

The whole point of the system is to save costs. If we can license and produce the Mogami design using the Indian system at such a cost advantage, it will be worth it. But it's questionable if it's possible with expensive MT30 and AESA radars. But its substantially better design on stealth, automation and raw power.

The argument for using the Talwar design is that we have already paid for the ToT. We can modify the design as we wish, but it will take time and we will have to change the propulsion system. It will be cheaper and we should be able to export it also.

 

[Speedster1]

This will not be a replacement of Nilgiri line but Talwar line. Project 17C is already moving ahead with approvals.

We have a two-tier frigate system. It's a high-low mix that allows us to achieve numbers at an affordable cost. Think of it as Type 26 and Type 31 of Royal navy. Which is why we keep ordering Talwars when we have our own P17 design. Talwar costs $500-600 Million when P-17B was $1+ billion.

The whole point of the system is to save costs. If we can license and produce the Mogami design using the Indian system at such a cost advantage, it will be worth it. But it's questionable if it's possible with expensive MT30 and AESA radars. But its substantially better design on stealth, automation and raw power.

The argument for using the Talwar design is that we have already paid for the ToT. We can modify the design as we wish, but it will take time and we will have to change the propulsion system. It will be cheaper and we should be able to export it also.

Talwar is already a 30+ yr old design (first ship commissioned in 2003). Heck even the latest Batch 3 ships have the exact same sensor and weapons fit (except VL Shtil). It will cost a small fortune to upgrade them to modern standards.

The Vietnamese on the other hand have gone in for AESA radar and significant local content right from the start on their ships (derived from Krivak 4)



Imo, we'd be better off upscaling P-28/28A to replace Talwar. In any case, NGC fulfills all of the mission sets, has similar range/endurance and will likely cost around the same as a Talwar.

 

[Ashwin]

Talwar is already a 30+ yr old design (first ship commissioned in 2003). Heck even the latest Batch 3 ships have the exact same sensor and weapons fit (except VL Shtil). It will cost a small fortune to upgrade them to modern standards.

The Vietnamese on the other hand have gone in for AESA radar and significant local content right from the start on their ships (derived from Krivak 4)

View attachment 52924

Imo, we'd be better off upscaling P-28/28A to replace Talwar. In any case, NGC fulfills all of the mission sets, has similar range/endurance and will likely cost around the same as a Talwar.

You believe Talwar aka Krivak is outdated then point out Vietnamese table top model derived from the same as something better?

Base design dont get outdated like that. The Arleigh Burke class is from 80s, Germany just ordered MEKO class derivative which is 40+ year old design. NGC need to be in commission and proven to build on it.

 

[Speedster1]

You believe Talwar aka Krivak is outdated then point out Vietnamese table top model derived from the same as something better?

Base design dont get outdated like that. The Arleigh Burke class is from 80s, Germany just ordered MEKO class derivative which is 40+ year old design. NGC need to be in commission and proven to build on it.

We have already contracted 2+2 Batch 3 Talwars to keep costs down. They won't be due for MLU for the next 2 decades atleast. This means we're stuck with the same sensor fit until then.

Vietnam's ships will feature the new mods right from the start. Better value for money in the long run.

Besides, I'm not sure Krivak 4 has the kind of growth margins as AB or Meko. It does not appear to be a modular design either. If the Delhi class upgrades are any indication, the IN will likely have to retain most of the electronics on the Talwars during MLU, except perhaps the sonars and ew.

Imo, buying Batch 3 Talwars with little to no upgrades baked in was a bad choice.

 

[Ashwin]

Vietnam's ships will feature the new mods right from the start. Better value for money in the long run.

I dont know how its relevant here.

Besides, I'm not sure Krivak 4 has the kind of growth margins as AB or Meko. It does not appear to be a modular design either.

Thats not how the ship design works. You can always mold it to your needs, like we did with Delhi and its successors.

Imo, buying Batch 3 Talwars with little to no upgrades baked in was a bad choice.

By abandoning that design, you make that choice worse.

 

[ShiroBarks]

Lol, lmao

So after decades of designing and trying to master every building block of warships, in one of the areas where India is getting self-reliant, Navy led WDB and vets led shipyards are back to ToT and license manufacturing

This comes after Navy issuing Make 1 tender for both gas turbine and diseal engines, after making big *censored* radars like LRMFR, cruise missiles, torpedos, sonars, alloys...

I just hope this is push from Japanese side and not ours

 

[Speedster1]

I dont know how its relevant here.

Vietnam gets the best of both cost and capability, we don't. Although their design/equipment choices are driven by the fact that this will be a top tier ship in their orbat. For us, Talwar is more of a medium tech/2nd line platform.

Thats not how the ship design works. You can always mold it to your needs, like we did with Delhi and its successors.

There are topside weight and power constraints inherent in each design. You can only do so much with regards to elements like propulsion over the lifetime of a ship.

The Russians are themselves standardizing on the Gorshov class FFG for the future which has the latest gen sensors and weapons.