How about range, the 117 is not going to have the same efficiency as that of the AL51F1. Weren't you also claiming that India would get the AL51? where has all that gone?
PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions
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Merely achieving the same dry thrust doesn't allow supercruise to the same level.
As per the Russians, 117 gives it mach 1.3, 177 will give it mach 1.6, and Izd 30 is needed for mach 2.
Speed has to be governed due to 177's inferior thermal management. And perhaps other features unique to 30, like different CoG, different thrust line, different airflow and exhaust etc.
Nobody is denying the Izd 30 will have greater performance.
All jet engines lose performance in hot/high conditions (lower air density = less oxygen for combustion). This affects every fighter, F-35, Rafale, Tejas, etc.
It still incorporates better IR and RF reduction measures than all other jet engines currently operational except american 5th gen with its better materials, cooling, serrated nozzles etc and Izd 30 will be even better than F119 & F135.
Except for the fact that the outdated f22 has little chance to no chance of winning visual range combat with Su57 because of it's superior thrust vectoring, greater high alpha and post stall control, excellent nose pointing ability, low speed agility, add the new engine and f22 loses it's slight better raw engine performance advantage and has near zero percent chance, I'm not gonna humour you with f35, even our future 3rd tier jets like rafale will smoke the f35 in dogfights. If you wanna talk about bvr combat, then the f22 is too outdated for a realistic win against Su57, heck it doesnt even have an IRST for crying out loud.
False, in realistic scenario's the f22 can supercruise at best 1.8 Mach, it's well known that Su57 can at least supercruise at 1.6 Mach which is true 5th gen category, also if were concerned about raw performance so much, why arent you concerned about the pitiful performance of F35 not being able to keep up to Su57 which the US actually deploys the most and failed to meet 5th gen supercruise capability?
Let's keep vapourware out of real world operations at the moment.
Literally everyone know every engine loses performance in hot/high conditions but trying to paint the narrative that the 177 won't provide enough performance for conditions here is pure speculation with zero evidence.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of aircraft design
Canards are used to provide extra lift and control especially at high angles of attack, it was added to MKI to partly handle the heavier radar and improved agility. Su57 was designed without canards on purpose and used more advanced measures instead, it used measures like very wide and flat fuselage blended to wings to generate to create a lifting body where lift comes from the body itself and not just the wings at both low and high speeds. This helps offset the thinner air compared to other platforms due to greater lift generated.
It also has levcons which 6th gen platforms in development are looking into, it generates and control powerful vortices at high angles of attack, this provide pitch control and additional lift but with less drag and rcs penalty like canards and it also greatly increases high angle of attack capability.
The (LERX) big extensions from the leading edge to the fuselage generate strong vortices at high AoA, further energizing the airflow over the wings.
The Su-57 is intentionally unstable. This makes it very responsive, and the KSU-50 flight control computer makes thousands of corrections per second. Combined with LEVCONs and 3D thrust vectoring, it achieves supermaneuverability.
Already explained
Cheap trash-talk.
India already rejected the old FGFA deal due to concerns and now negotiates from strength (2025–2026 talks include licensed production, ToT, Indian avionics integration, and use of existing Su-30 facilities).
This is not a desperate "bakra" situation, it’s hard bargaining, similar to the successful Su-30MKI program. India is evaluating Su-57E as a potential bridge until AMCA matures.
117? That's the program designation of current Su-57S' engines, i.e., AL-41F1. 117S is Su-35' engine that is AL-41F-1S. The former has 93KN dry and 147 KN wet thrust while the latter has 88KN dry and 142KN wet thrust.
Here we are talking about a mew engine that is amalgamation of AL-51F1 tech into AL-31FP footprint, i.e., Item 177(108KN dry, 158KN wet thrust) , and 177S(90KN dry and 142KN wet thrust).
How will India get AL-51 when Russians won't put it in their serial aircraft? The French article is pointing towards Russians forlorning AL-51F1 for Item 177 in Su-57M.
177? Nope.
It's just a modification of the same 117 core. The core design is still 4th gen, with some new modifications.
The F-22 beats the Su-57 hands down in RF stealth, even IR stealth. While RF and IR stealth can be addressed in future modernizations. The 177 is merely a compromise. Izd 30 is critical to the success of the jet.
I don't know what you are arguing about here, but Su-57 has to compete with J-20, J-XX, and F-47, all pushing closer to/more than mach 2. Falling behind is not a good thing.
You do realize IAF's Su-57 has to compete with J-XX right?
Vapourware is the benchmark. Su-57 with 177 won't even come close to J-20, never mind J-XX. Or even GCAP.
I'd argue you claiming the opposite of an established fact is pure speculation. How is a 16000 kgf engine adequate for a design meant to handle 18000 kgf of thrust?
Maneuverability and takeoff performance are not related. You can dance on a dime in the air, but with 2T of less thrust, 4T overall, you are not going to sustainably achieve full takeoff performance.
To operate in Indian conditions, I'm arguing we need more than what Izd 30 delivers just to operate at the same efficiency as the engine operates in Russia.
It's all relative to the design. CCC adds to lift tremendously, which adds to takeoff performance. Without CCC, you are more dependent on engine thrust. Similarly, Su-57's LERX is more suitable for performance in the air, it will not assist as much as CCC in takeoff performance, so it needs more thrust to compensate. And here, you want far decreased thrust than what the airframe is supposed to handle. That makes the aircraft half-arsed, ie, totally incompatible with India's requirements.
There are no talks. IAF has not even evaluated the jet, how can there be any talks? IAF is waiting for the two-seat to fly.
The Russians want an export partner for both 177S and Su-57, and India is their main target. They want a bakra because they want someone to get into the program before the program has matured. 177S has not even been developed, they need IAF and the MKI program to fund it. They royally screwed up Izd 30, so to save the Su-57 they put an interim engine on it, and they want a bakra to buy this compromised jet.
HAL is desperate for a deal to maintain their monopoly, so they are willing to play the game. All the talks are just Russia and HAL conspiring to push a compromised jet on to the IAF. It's not going anywhere for them.
Never mind Su-57 with 177, the IAF is no longer interested in even a Su-57 with Izd 30. The Russians need to use the next 5 years to start flying the two-seat and push the Izd 30 into service, and compete with the Europeans for the next gen local production requirement. They are likely to lose even that. Maybe at best they can hope for a few squadrons for drone control, only 'cause we are not developing a two-seat AMCA. But as it stands today, the Su-57 on its own is already DOA. IAF has already made that clear by stating their future needs will be met by LCA, Rafale, and AMCA.
Air Force chief backs indigenous production of 5th generation jets
The Chinook and Apache choppers may make an appearance at the Air Force Day show at Hindon station on 8 Oct.The AMCA is currently in 'detail design phase' and is expected to be completed by 2021
www.livemint.com
Indian Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria on the Way Ahead | Defense.info
New Delhi. The Indian Air Force (IAF) is focusing on building its numbers, acquisition of newer technologies, and encouraging “rapid establishment of a comprehensive aerospace industry” in India. Stating this, Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, told India Strategic in an...
defense.info
India's Spiraling Tryst With The Su-57 FGFA - Livefist
By SANKALAN CHATTOPADHYAY for Livefist The “Fifth-generation Fighter Aircraft” (FGFA) program promised the Indian Air Force (IAF) a stealthy, highly maneuverable, highly agile, and advanced network-centric platform to face the evolving multi-domain collaborative combat environment of the future...
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FGFA is gone. Su-57 with Izd 30 is not gonna be inducted anytime soon. So there's nothing happening here concerning India. Two-seat is an option for a distant future, ie, 2035+.
We are getting F414 production tech and AMCA engine in exchange for not funding Russia's aviation industry. That's why I keep saying anything new that's big ticket with Russia can only happen after AMCA engine is fully developed, ie, 2035+. The West is hoping India will become completely independent from Russia in the process, so even after their leverage is gone, India will not have to depend on Russia for future aerospace projects, thereby isolating them. This is in our interest too. That's why Russia doesn't want to lose their grip on MKI. And India is switching from defense imports to resources to maintain relations with Russia.
Even with two-seat, while there is a small chance, it's likely just lip service.
We are settling on 4 types; MKI, LCA Mk1A/2, Rafale, and AMCA.
Why even need 2 seater when 1 seater is sufficient ? To control ghatak/s70 ? Aren't they autonomous and why an aircraft need to control them ??177? Nope.
It's just a modification of the same 117 core. The core design is still 4th gen, with some new modifications.
The F-22 beats the Su-57 hands down in RF stealth, even IR stealth. While RF and IR stealth can be addressed in future modernizations. The 177 is merely a compromise. Izd 30 is critical to the success of the jet.
I don't know what you are arguing about here, but Su-57 has to compete with J-20, J-XX, and F-47, all pushing closer to/more than mach 2. Falling behind is not a good thing.
You do realize IAF's Su-57 has to compete with J-XX right?
Vapourware is the benchmark. Su-57 with 177 won't even come close to J-20, never mind J-XX. Or even GCAP.
I'd argue you claiming the opposite of an established fact is pure speculation. How is a 16000 kgf engine adequate for a design meant to handle 18000 kgf of thrust?
Maneuverability and takeoff performance are not related. You can dance on a dime in the air, but with 2T of less thrust, 4T overall, you are not going to sustainably achieve full takeoff performance.
To operate in Indian conditions, I'm arguing we need more than what Izd 30 delivers just to operate at the same efficiency as the engine operates in Russia.
It's all relative to the design. CCC adds to lift tremendously, which adds to takeoff performance. Without CCC, you are more dependent on engine thrust. Similarly, Su-57's LERX is more suitable for performance in the air, it will not assist as much as CCC in takeoff performance, so it needs more thrust to compensate. And here, you want far decreased thrust than what the airframe is supposed to handle. That makes the aircraft half-arsed, ie, totally incompatible with India's requirements.
There are no talks. IAF has not even evaluated the jet, how can there be any talks? IAF is waiting for the two-seat to fly.
The Russians want an export partner for both 177S and Su-57, and India is their main target. They want a bakra because they want someone to get into the program before the program has matured. 177S has not even been developed, they need IAF and the MKI program to fund it. They royally screwed up Izd 30, so to save the Su-57 they put an interim engine on it, and they want a bakra to buy this compromised jet.
HAL is desperate for a deal to maintain their monopoly, so they are willing to play the game. All the talks are just Russia and HAL conspiring to push a compromised jet on to the IAF. It's not going anywhere for them.
Never mind Su-57 with 177, the IAF is no longer interested in even a Su-57 with Izd 30. The Russians need to use the next 5 years to start flying the two-seat and push the Izd 30 into service, and compete with the Europeans for the next gen local production requirement. They are likely to lose even that. Maybe at best they can hope for a few squadrons for drone control, only 'cause we are not developing a two-seat AMCA. But as it stands today, the Su-57 on its own is already DOA. IAF has already made that clear by stating their future needs will be met by LCA, Rafale, and AMCA.
“For the fifth generation, the Indian programme AMCA has already been initiated. That has been given the go-ahead. We have been given full support. That programme is taking off. That is where we are putting our energies in,” Bhadauria said. There are “no plans” to import “as yet” and “not for the foreseeable future”, Bhadauria told reporters in New Delhi ahead of the 87th raising day of the IAF on 8 October.Air Force chief backs indigenous production of 5th generation jets
The Chinook and Apache choppers may make an appearance at the Air Force Day show at Hindon station on 8 Oct.The AMCA is currently in 'detail design phase' and is expected to be completed by 2021
Asked about more Rafales, he said: “We are currently focusing on signing the contract for 83 LCA MK1A, and the procurement procedure for 114 MRFA under Make in India is in progress. Further plans include the possible follow-on of LCA orders and of course our unequivocal support for the fifth generation AMCA.”Indian Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria on the Way Ahead | Defense.info
New Delhi. The Indian Air Force (IAF) is focusing on building its numbers, acquisition of newer technologies, and encouraging “rapid establishment of a comprehensive aerospace industry” in India. Stating this, Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, told India Strategic in an...
On April 20, 2018, it was reported that India had officially exited the FGFA program in February. Although UAC head Yury Slyusar claimed India might later acquire a license to manufacture the platform, no further developments occurred. In 2019, then-Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa clarified that the platform would only be considered if inducted by the Russian Air Force. His successor, ACM R.K.S. Bhadauria, firmly dismissed the possibility of procuring any foreign fifth-generation fighter aircraft, reaffirming full support for India’s AMCA program. This effectively marked the end of the FGFA project.India's Spiraling Tryst With The Su-57 FGFA - Livefist
By SANKALAN CHATTOPADHYAY for Livefist The “Fifth-generation Fighter Aircraft” (FGFA) program promised the Indian Air Force (IAF) a stealthy, highly maneuverable, highly agile, and advanced network-centric platform to face the evolving multi-domain collaborative combat environment of the future...
FGFA is gone. Su-57 with Izd 30 is not gonna be inducted anytime soon. So there's nothing happening here concerning India. Two-seat is an option for a distant future, ie, 2035+.
We are getting F414 production tech and AMCA engine in exchange for not funding Russia's aviation industry. That's why I keep saying anything new that's big ticket with Russia can only happen after AMCA engine is fully developed, ie, 2035+. The West is hoping India will become completely independent from Russia in the process, so even after their leverage is gone, India will not have to depend on Russia for future aerospace projects, thereby isolating them. This is in our interest too. That's why Russia doesn't want to lose their grip on MKI. And India is switching from defense imports to resources to maintain relations with Russia.
Even with two-seat, while there is a small chance, it's likely just lip service.
We are settling on 4 types; MKI, LCA Mk1A/2, Rafale, and AMCA.
And if yes then why us or china not developing 2 seater for their own s70 ??
That's the same logic when you pushed the unverified claims like safran will design our engine in such a way where we can upgrade it into a VCE engine with zero evidence. If a 5th gen engine can be modified into a 6th gen per your logic, then a 4th gen can at least be modified into a semi 5th gen with 5th gen class alloys, improved cooling, sawtooth exhaust nozzles, improved fuel efficiency, significantly improved thrust, 2-3 times greater service life, more advanced FADEC etc
True but overstated, flat nozzle will provide better stealth but it comes with it, its shares of performance compromises and america themselves ditched the flat nozzle design for serrated nozzle in their most advanced stealth jet, if that's good enough for america who is the leader in stealth platforms, the Serrated nozzle is gonna be good enough for most cases.
Also funny how you failed to address the primary points I used to debunk you, there is no universe where the outdated F22 will be a better air superiority fighter than Su57 let alone the F35. Not to mention the F22 isn't even multirole and needs the F35 to support it for strike roles unlike Su57 which can fulfil both sets of missions.
So your competition is with a chinese jet which by your own standards still doesn't use it's intended engine in most of it's produced units and even if we suppose it did, it still can't supercruise above M1.8 which isn't is a huge advantage compared to the minimum M1.6 Su57 would do with an interim engine which is true 5th gen performance which even america's lead stealth jet fails to do. Let's also not mention how Su57 has much superior kinematic and dogfight performance, better electronic and IR countermeasures, better sensory capability etc than J20. You also failed to understand that there are other factors that go into play with how good a modern jet actually is and merely comparing it's raw speed alone is a childish take.
You mean J35?
Aren't you the one who was glazing the rafale deeply because of it being operational for long with combat proven hardware and now you are comparing an already combat proven and operational platform with vapourware with zero combat readiness or operation seen? Pick a lane, you can't have it both ways whenever you lose an argument here.
There is a reason that anonymous and bhabhablacksheep call you professional story teller, you put in facts and then mix it with your own speculation with zero evidence and then pretend like it's the truth.
The original design target was ambitious. Many fighters fly successfully with interim engines (F-35 had early issues, F-22 had teething problems). Product 177 already unlocks major performance gains over the old 117. Russia is using it now on Su-57 while Item 30 matures. Adequate ≠ perfect.
Unless you can prove your speculation that this engine with Su57 won't be able to properly operate in Indian conditions regardless of the data available about the aircraft design or engine performance, you are upholding your nickname here.
It's almost like whenever you lose an argument here, you intentionally only cherry pick parts ignoring the full context of the explanation and display intellectual dishonesty. I already explained about the lift part which you conveniently ignored because it debunks you.
Also you failed to understand that takeoff performance is not just limited to thrust, it's the lift generated by the airframe at low speed and high AoA, ground effect, High lift devices or vortex systems etc
This entire philosophy (large blended lifting body + LEVCONs + LERX + 3D TVC) was chosen specifically to achieve excellent low-speed and high-alpha performance using more advanced methods without relying on traditional canards which causes drag and rcs penalty.
So when you say “with 2T less thrust you won’t achieve full takeoff performance,” you are ignoring how the airframe is designed to compensate through superior lift generation.
You cannot separate maneuverability from takeoff performance in a supermaneuverable 5th-gen design like the Su-57. They are interlinked through the same aerodynamic features (LEVCONs, LERX, lifting body, relaxed stability).
Also, please define full takeoff performance?
Since you cared about the takeoff performance so much especially in Indian conditions, I can backup my words unlike your speculated false opinions.
Let's look at Aero India 2025,
Aero India 2025
At 35:25 we can observe the takeoff performance of Su57, it took less than 10 seconds to go airborne which is ridiculously fast and mind you, it did that with just the 117 engine in Indian conditions not the more powerful 177 or even more powerful Izd 30 engine.
The F22 which is america's best fighter in terms of performance, even F22 takeoff takes about 12-15 seconds in easier climate conditions
Compare it with our Su30MKI which takes about 20 seconds to take at Su30MKI takeoff. Rafale with 12 second Rafale takeoff.
F16 takes greater than F16 takeoff 15 seconds to takeoff, F35 takes F35 takeoff at least 15 seconds to do the same.
So let's get a summary, the Su57 with it's Product 117 engine managed to blow out all american, russian and european jets in takeoff performance in Indian conditions with product 117 engine and you falsely speculated the 177 won't give necessary performance?
The problem with you is that, suppose product A is better than B, you automatically assume B is obslete and won't perform well ignoring the fact that it outperforms product C, D & E of rival nations. If you reread my comment, you would understand why the Su57 has such great aerodynamic performance.
already explained
Multiple credible reports confirm advanced technical negotiations between India and Russia for Su-57E, including licensed production, ToT, Indian avionics/weapons integration, and use of existing Su-30MKI facilities. Talks were active. India is negotiating from strength, exactly like the successful Su-30MKI program.There are no talks. IAF has not even evaluated the jet, how can there be any talks? IAF is waiting for the two-seat to fly.
The Russians want an export partner for both 177S and Su-57, and India is their main target. They want a bakra because they want someone to get into the program before the program has matured. 177S has not even been developed, they need IAF and the MKI program to fund it. They royally screwed up Izd 30, so to save the Su-57 they put an interim engine on it, and they want a bakra to buy this compromised jet.
HAL is desperate for a deal to maintain their monopoly, so they are willing to play the game. All the talks are just Russia and HAL conspiring to push a compromised jet on to the IAF. It's not going anywhere for them.
Never mind Su-57 with 177, the IAF is no longer interested in even a Su-57 with Izd 30. The Russians need to use the next 5 years to start flying the two-seat and push the Izd 30 into service, and compete with the Europeans for the next gen local production requirement. They are likely to lose even that. Maybe at best they can hope for a few squadrons for drone control, only 'cause we are not developing a two-seat AMCA. But as it stands today, the Su-57 on its own is already DOA. IAF has already made that clear by stating their future needs will be met by LCA, Rafale, and AMCA.
“For the fifth generation, the Indian programme AMCA has already been initiated. That has been given the go-ahead. We have been given full support. That programme is taking off. That is where we are putting our energies in,” Bhadauria said. There are “no plans” to import “as yet” and “not for the foreseeable future”, Bhadauria told reporters in New Delhi ahead of the 87th raising day of the IAF on 8 October.Air Force chief backs indigenous production of 5th generation jets
The Chinook and Apache choppers may make an appearance at the Air Force Day show at Hindon station on 8 Oct.The AMCA is currently in 'detail design phase' and is expected to be completed by 2021
Asked about more Rafales, he said: “We are currently focusing on signing the contract for 83 LCA MK1A, and the procurement procedure for 114 MRFA under Make in India is in progress. Further plans include the possible follow-on of LCA orders and of course our unequivocal support for the fifth generation AMCA.”Indian Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria on the Way Ahead | Defense.info
New Delhi. The Indian Air Force (IAF) is focusing on building its numbers, acquisition of newer technologies, and encouraging “rapid establishment of a comprehensive aerospace industry” in India. Stating this, Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, told India Strategic in an...
On April 20, 2018, it was reported that India had officially exited the FGFA program in February. Although UAC head Yury Slyusar claimed India might later acquire a license to manufacture the platform, no further developments occurred. In 2019, then-Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa clarified that the platform would only be considered if inducted by the Russian Air Force. His successor, ACM R.K.S. Bhadauria, firmly dismissed the possibility of procuring any foreign fifth-generation fighter aircraft, reaffirming full support for India’s AMCA program. This effectively marked the end of the FGFA project.India's Spiraling Tryst With The Su-57 FGFA - Livefist
By SANKALAN CHATTOPADHYAY for Livefist The “Fifth-generation Fighter Aircraft” (FGFA) program promised the Indian Air Force (IAF) a stealthy, highly maneuverable, highly agile, and advanced network-centric platform to face the evolving multi-domain collaborative combat environment of the future...
FGFA is gone. Su-57 with Izd 30 is not gonna be inducted anytime soon. So there's nothing happening here concerning India. Two-seat is an option for a distant future, ie, 2035+.
We are getting F414 production tech and AMCA engine in exchange for not funding Russia's aviation industry. That's why I keep saying anything new that's big ticket with Russia can only happen after AMCA engine is fully developed, ie, 2035+. The West is hoping India will become completely independent from Russia in the process, so even after their leverage is gone, India will not have to depend on Russia for future aerospace projects, thereby isolating them. This is in our interest too. That's why Russia doesn't want to lose their grip on MKI. And India is switching from defense imports to resources to maintain relations with Russia.
Even with two-seat, while there is a small chance, it's likely just lip service.
We are settling on 4 types; MKI, LCA Mk1A/2, Rafale, and AMCA.
IAF has not officially ruled out Su-57. It is evaluating it as a bridge until AMCA matures (realistic timeline: 2035+ for meaningful numbers). Claims of "no interest" and "HAL conspiracy" are conspiracy-level speculation.
Russia wants a customer, normal for any exporter. India is a hard bargainer, not a "bakra."
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A pair of Su-60s will give 4 controllers for multiple drones. Even if the drones are semi-autonomous, someone still has to do battle management.
The Chinese have two-seat J-20 called J-20S.
So there's this thing called Electronic Pilot, you tell it what to do, it'll fly and keep an eye out for threats while maintaining situational awareness. Basically stuff like loiter, go there, follow this way-point navigation etc.
The human pilot focuses on battle management, they are first integrating this thing on Tejas MK2. Though it's designed for something like AMCA.
You're confused. What I said is our 5th gen engine will come pre-equipped to be upgraded to 6th gen.
But 177 is based on the old AL-31F, which was upgraded to 117, and then upgraded to 177. It has 1-2 less compressor stages.
The AL-31 is a 13 stage engine, so is the 117. The 177 is a 12 stage engine. Izd 30 is an 8 stage engine. The 117 isn't a brand new design like AMCA's engine, it's just a modernization of the old AL-31F, it uses some AL-51 features. It's not enough to make it a true 5th gen engine.
Relatively, F119 and F135 are 9 stage engines. 177 is just a compromise meant to cover up the failure of the Izd 30.
All they seem to have done is combine the AL-51's LPC to 117's HPC and changed some of the hot parts to handle more heat so it can output more thrust. It's like upgrading Kaveri 1 to Kaveri 2. It's literally next to useless as a 5th gen engine.
They skipped flat nozzle on F-35 'cause of lack of engine power on F135, and the ridiculous VSTOL requirement.
P&W offered a new engine specifically for F-35As, but was rejected. F-47 and B-21 come with flat nozzles.
177 will also come with flat nozzle.
Even the Russians don't believe what you believe.
J-20 is equipped with its definitive engine. Began last year. The bulk of their J-20s use older engines. But how many J-20s and all those new jets will they have by the time we get this Su-57?
No, China's NGAD equivalent. Apart from J-36 and J-50, they are developing an NGAD class J-XX and a strike successor to the J-16 called JH-XX.
How on earth are you comparing a proven fighter needed for current requirements versus a yet-to-be-tested and evaluated fighter meant to deal with future threats?
That's because people have absolutely no pattern recognition skills.
Su-57 is not even close to having achieved its design goals. Forget reaching even Indian design goals, it doesn't even reach Russian design goals. It's barely at IOC, the avionics are completely untested, it doesn't carry its main engine. And you are trying to compare it a fighter that's fully developed and mature and fought in multiple wars. And most important of all, has not only been evaluated by the IAF, but has already become operational and has been tested in combat in Indian conditions in scenarios that no other air force has been tested.
From the IAF's perspective, Rafale is needed here and now. Su-57/AMCA are needed when 6th gen threats mature. So the question is will the Su-57 be enough? The IAF has decided it won't, they prefer investing in SCAF/GCAP instead.
You are the one confusing facts with your own speculations. You are entirely dependent on speculations to come to your conclusion. The IAF's actions are clearly contradictory to yours.
Whoa, whoa, you have to prove that the engine is sufficient for Indian conditions.
The Su-57 airframe was designed for 17.5-18T of thrust. If Russia's decided to half-*censored* it with 157 kN, then you have to prove how it's apparently enough.
You are just buying into this storyteller argument because others don't have any realistic arguments to make. It's typical, start losing argument, start the name-calling.
Why don't you make the effort to prove what I said wrong? I'd love to know how physics is wrong and you are right.
Let me very, very easily prove my point of view. If the Russians said the aircraft needs 18T of thrust but have decided on 16 'cause they failed their development goals, it means the jet is now an under-powered half-arsed aircraft. Now your job is to prove how 16T magically removes the need for the 18T engine.
If that was the case, then why did Russia develop the Izd 30? Don't you think it was a waste of time and money?
All answers will be revealed once you prove how Su-57 with a TWR barely above 1 can do everything possible when it was originally designed for a TWR of 1.2.
Ah, yes. Takeoff performance in Bangalore and in airshow configuration. Wow. Maybe all jets will take off from Bangalore in Feb no matter when and where the war happens or what sort of weather actual warzones are experiencing, and without weapons. We are breaking new grounds here.
Ah, yes, we are buying before evaluations. First time in history. More new ground being broken.
Russia believes customers will come, but first they need a bakra to help fund R&D and achieve scale, specifically a big bakra.
Let's discuss this again once MoD provides DAC approval. Funny how nobody cares that there's no DAC approval for these Su-57 "negotiations."
Anyway, awaiting proof of how Su-57 with TWR lower than 1 in Indian conditions will meet all our objectives.
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Warfare, especially aerial warfare is becoming more and more complex as time goes on, AI & autonomy is one way to tackle it, but if platform allows 2 seater version it become better to be safe than sorry approach, we can't say for certain if AI & autonomy will prevail 100%, its all evolving.
It's about scaling up battlespace management with additional controllers.
A single pilot, while flying his jet, cannot manage more than a few drones at a time. With a WSO, you get more drones. And with additional WSOs, you can control an entire battlespace. The difference is what an AWACS can do within your own airspace, the twin-seat can do inside enemy airspace.
In time, this capability will be fully automated, so there's a chance we won't be seeing any need for twin-seats. That's why I said the interest in a two-seat Felon is likely just lip service.
The IAF is likely to string the Russians along until they sign a deal for SCAF/GCAP, and then push for other deals with Russia, like next gen helicopters, strategic stealth transports and refuelers, advanced weapons JVs (like an internally-mounted Brahmos) etc. I won't be surprised if we buy half a squadron or more of Mig-41s for on-demand surveillance and anti-sat capabilities.
We can just have a transactional relationship with the Americans like the Saudis, alas we don't have oil.We don't have to be simps for anyone except ourselves. With Russians, we can dictate the terms and are free to use their weapons as we deem perfect. Same with the French and Israelis(to slightly lesser extent as far as the former one is concerned).
As far as Uncle Sam is concerned, to be their enemy is bad but being their friend is more fatal
Also I would like to add another thing. The American stuff is expensive and comes with a lot of conditions. Even the Pakistanis seem to use them not as much and conserve them.We don't have to be simps for anyone except ourselves. With Russians, we can dictate the terms and are free to use their weapons as we deem perfect. Same with the French and Israelis(to slightly lesser extent as far as the former one is concerned).
As far as Uncle Sam is concerned, to be their enemy is bad but being their friend is more fatal
It's another propaganda slop for baiting random third worlders.
Nobody here is confused except you, you said that the 5th gen engine can be modified into 6th gen VCE by changing its cold section without changing the core, I'm saying upgrading a 4th to semi 5th gen is less of a stretch of imagination than unverified claims of going from 5th to 6th.
What you failed to understand is that, compressor stage alone doesn't dictate generation, it delivers greater thrust, better efficiency, significantly longer shelf life, Improved hot-section materials, better turbine aerodynamics, upgraded FADEC, and serrated nozzles for reduced IR/RCS. That's why it's called semi 5th gen.
Like I said before, there are trade off's with using flat nozzles and literally all 5th gen stealth jets including AMCA except F22 will use a serrated nozzle instead of flat nozzle. Most countries and their scientists have looked at the pro's and con's of both and deemed the serrated nozzle as adequate for their 5th gen needs no matter what some guy on a forum fails to understand.
Source for your claims? Also please explain whether they are a casual russian forum dweller or actual military commander or Sukhoi engineer.
Did I say otherwise? I mentioned most of their j20 still doesn't use its intended engine or meet performance requirement.
Vapourware at the moment
Couple of things there, the rafale is still an unproven jet against a modern army, the only time it was used against a more modern airforce was against pakistan who shot it down.
Let's put that aside for the moment, whenever people bring up operational 5th gen jets, you come to glaze 4th gen rafale saying it operated longer and is more combat proven and hence better which is obviously wrong and would get you clowned at by the whole world in any international forum but suddenly when we bring up 5th gen operational jets like Su57 designed to counter other 5th gen threats, suddenly you don't care about combat proven or readiness, heck you don't even care if its a prototype let alone vapourware. It's pure copium as best.
Partially true but heavily exaggerated as usual, please explain what were the design goals of Su57 and how it's not close to achieving it? Cause it has as designed shown super maneuverability and agility, reduced rcs, multi role capability, supercruise, advanced sensor fusion and situational awareness, networked warfare. Even with 177 it blows rafale out of water with it's performance. Rafale at best can be used against weak and degraded opponents or 4th gen jets, it has zero chance against modern 5th or upcoming 6th gen platforms. It's almost like you listen with one ear and forget with the other, I'm gonna repeat but slowly this time, indeed the Izd 30 is better than product 177 but even with product 177, it still outperforms almost all 4th and 5th gen platforms and it's performance is just one side of the picture, it has multiple other capabilities which makes it a great jet, it's a joke to even compare the rafale which is outdated against modern threats with Su57.
Rafale is needed to fill up our squadron gap and combat other 4-4.5 gen jets, no sane person expects the rafale of having over 1% survival chance against a 5th gen jet which pakistan will aquire and china already has, that's what Su57 and AMCA is for.
Nope, that's not the way this works. You were the only contrarian here who made these bad faith claims that Su57 can't handle Indian conditions, It's your job to prove it, not the other way around. I already disproven your claims related to it previously however if you got any scientific evidence or proof for you claims which you likely don't, my explanation about how you are terribly wrong stands, please feel free to refer it time to time if required since you failed to understand the physics related to it as usual.
Because Izd 30 is better, no one is debating it. It will enable Su57 to have better raw performance than america's greatest jet, the problem with you is that you keep confusing facts with speculation and narrate it as truth, that's why you have a bad rep here, Izd 30 will allow the jet to perform in 100% of it's capability, 177 would be say 90% so you automatically assume it's bad but don't understand that the 90% of Su57 is far ahead of jets like F35, rafale etc and even F22 in many departments.
It's upto you to disprove it, also it doesnt need to do it as well as Izd 30, with the 177 itself, it can do better than most other 4th and 5th gen.
This is a weak gotcha. Aero India demos (hot season) already showed strong short-field capability. Su-30MKI (older Russian engines) operates successfully from much higher/hot bases (Ladakh). There is zero evidence Su-57 with 177 will be inadequate since it displayed better takeoff performance than f22, f35 and other outdated jets like rafale, unless you can prove your false claims which you likely cant as usual, my point stands.
Like I said, you are the contrarian here, if upto you to prove your stories as true unlike your regular sessions.
So a converting a 5th gen engine in a combined 5/6th gen program is the same as converting a 30-year engine into 5th gen?
Seriously?
Call it anything you want, but it's not Izd 30.
Putin. He himself said the Su-57 doesn't compete with the F-22 in stealth but will compensate with maneuverability.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry knows the Su-57 is inferior to the F-22. Even Russia officially agrees with that position.
They openly claimed FGFA is designed to be more stealthy and that the new two-seat design will also be more stealthy to meet Indian requirements. Yeah, the designers said that officially.
Rafale was used against Chinese surveillance, Chinese advanced jets equipped with advanced GaN radar and BVR with GaN seeker alongside an advanced IADS, advanced NATO AWACS, and EA capabilities against a Western trained air force, all networked with each other. Lolz.
Its all about timelines. Rafale is necessary in the 2020+ timeframe. Su-57 and AMCA are needed in the 2040+ timeframe.
So Su-57 has to defeat adversaries that post-date Rafale's production end. It's going to have to compete with J-XX.
Ask Putin.
177 may blow Rafale out of the water on its own, but put that on the Su-57 and it becomes a turd.
I'm making the common sense claim. You are making the extraordinary claim. So you prove this.
Why don't you at least start with TWR calculations?
Figure out what Su-57's TWR is in Russia with 177 and 30, and then reduce those thrusts by 15% and compare them in Indian conditions. And compare them to AMCA's with F414 with 15% lower thrust and flat-rated AMCA engine. To keep it simple, assume Su-57 maxes out at 30T with full internal fuel and AMCA maxes out at 19T.
Let's see you at least come to your own conclusions first.
Basic TWR calculations first.
Let's figure out how much you realize this on your own.
Yeah, dude, sure. Bangalore airshow is the benchmark.
You need to inform the IAF to stop bothering with their hot trials in Rajasthan and cold trials in Leh and just use Bangalore for everything. Su-57 seems to have skipped these tests after all, so you might be on to something.
Yeah, forget EoI/RFI, SQRs, AoN, RFP etc... direct contract negotiations from day 1.
Let's see you get basic TWR calculations right first, before one can determine your opinions have any value on this subject.
Can you not read? I said converting a 4th to a semi 5th gen, most 4th gen engine's are 2 or more decades old anyway and it's definitely much less of a stretch of imagination than your unproven and unverified with zero proof of 5th gen being converted to 6th.
And nobody here said otherwise
Sorry if I'm being blunt but are you perhaps genuinely r3tarded? My original statement was that Su57 was a better air superiority fighter than F22 and it is a multi role fighter unlike F22 which is an air superiority one. Then you say Su57 is less stealthy than F22 which I never disagreed with or argued against. Please learn to read and comprehend something before blindly arguing against something. So I ask again, explain how Russian's themselves don't believe these points and show whether it's the casual Russian forum user or someone from the MoD from Russia cause I've seen Russians in their forums almost universally agree with my point.
Yeah and it got easily shot down, company stocks tanked and humiliated infront of the entire world.
Still doesn't change the fact that a 4th gen rafale has zero chance against modern 5th gen threats, AMCA and Su57 is meant to tackle 5th and more modern threats which rafale can never do.
Says who? Your mama? Time and time again you present this forum with your unwanted terrible speculations with zero evidence.
Like I said, prove your claims with real evidence, else it's just big talk with no weight.
That's your job in the first place
You cried about Indian conditions and when it showed much greater capability than jets like rafale, f35, f22, f16, tejas etc, Bangalore isn't good enough for you? Weren't you an advocate for common sense just a moment ago? Common sense dictate that if Su57 with 117 can outperform all these jets in Bangalore, it will do the same in Rajasthan or Jammu. Else back up your claims with proof, I've already debunked your lies and false claims, prove to us with evidence that Su57 with 177 won't perform well in Jammu or Rajasthan when Su57 with 117 itself blew your favourite jets out of the park.
Balls on your court, you are the contrarian here, not us.
Hang on a minute. So a 30-year old engine can be converted into a next gen engine, but a brand-new design cannot deliberately be designed wiith next gen features in mind?
Are you seriously kidding me?
Why do I get the feeling you are the type of person who will fall for the Digital Arrest scam?
And I'm saying even Izd 30 is insufficient, forget 177. You haven't provided the TWR calculations.
To be a better air superiority fighter or a multirole fighter compared to the F-22, it first needs to be competitive in stealth. It's not.
So your very statement that it's better is wrong.
And yes, not just Putin, even the designers from Sukhoi agree the only advantages of the Su-57 over F-22 are maneuverability and more weapons choices. IAF doesn't care about maneuverability or weapons choices. They don't think the former is enough, and the IAF already has more weapons choices on MKI already.
From IAF's perspective, competitive stealth is the most important criteria from the Su-57, 'cause everything else is supposed to be Indian.
And we are rewarding them with the largest single order they have ever received, while on the back of existing orders.
Now, what's your excuse? The IAF is corrupt and you know better?
That's your opinion. IAF doesn't care about it. Clearly.
Physics.
As I said, provide basic TWR calculations.
No. You made the claim 177 is enough. Prove that.
Prove basic TWR calculations. Everything will be answered the minute you give those up. Use AI if you want. You will learn something.
The fact that you don't know what I'm asking for shows any reader with even the most basic knowledge about this topic that you have absolutely no idea what's going on.
What do you understand by "Indian conditions" and explain how Bangalore fits that criteria?
Lol. How am I the contrarian? The Russians designed the AL-51F specifically for the Su-57. Now they themselves say an underpowered engine is their interim choice. You are the one claiming Izd 30 is no longer necessary. So you prove why.
The Al-31 lineage evolution into later products like Al-41 or Izdeliye derivates is known facts with evidence unlike your fake claims with zero evidence. The Al-31 to AL-41/177 was a continuous evolutionary development of the entire engine system over decades, new compressors, turbine materials, FADEC, thermal margines, pressure ratio, cooling methods, nozzle integration and structural redesign. This evolutionary development from 4th to semi 5th gen level capability is well recorded unlike your fake claims with no backing.
Look at the pot calling the kettle black
Yeah and you haven't proved anything just like any of your claims.
You made plenty of mistakes there, you speak like those illiterate murican fanboys on reddit who discovered stealth just yesterday who mistakenly thinks air combat is one variable spreadsheet. Nobody denied F22 of having lower frontal RCS, the issue is your hilariously false assumption of thinking that alone decides air superiority while ignoring literally all other subsystem from modern combat. The F22 is already a outdated and flawed jet, it doesn't even have an IRST. Range of modern IRST systems nowadays is well over 100km. Its invaluable in modern fighters, which is why every jet post 90s except F22 adopted it, even the F35 did. A capable radar with array with IRST gives peak situation awareness against threats in radar and infrared range. Especially in era where radar's can be jammed and countered. It certainly increases the probability of achieving a kill than not having it and in combination with IR seeking missiles and HMD, it gives immense utility. Not having an IRST in an aircraft after 1999 is simply an inexcusable flaw. Let's also not forget that this dated jet has no HMD, poor interoperability with non F22 jets, limited multi role capability, limited weapons bay capacity and range, aging avionics architecture, extremely overpriced maintenance, production lines shut down, very limited sensor coverage, limited modularity.
The Su57 is much more modern jet designed around superior and broader situational awareness, missile flexibility, kinematics and multirole capability instead of obsessing over shaving every decibal off frontal rcs at the expense of everything else. And your “even Russia admits it” point is comedy because it literally confirms the aircraft was intentionally designed with different tradeoffs. Congratulations, you discovered engineering. The Russians never set out to build an F-22 clone, it was built to take down the F22 and make no mistake, it is the superior jet.
Cause its a good 4th gen jet and there are limited options available based on political, economical and militarily situation of our country but thats where it ends, it's a good 4th gen meant to fill our squadron gap but it isn't a game changer or ace in the hole by modern standards.
That's the whole world's opinion, nobody is thinking the rafale is anything more than a 4.5 gen jet, ask Pakistan.
You could do well in learning it. I heard khans academy is good.
So again no proof for any of your claims? How typical, we shouldn't expect anything better.
You keep parroting “basic TWR calculations” like a teenager who just discovered thrust-to-weight ratios on Wikipedia while completely ignoring aerodynamic efficiency, wing loading, intake design, control laws, nozzle behavior, fuel state, takeoff profile and transient thrust response. A fighter is not a calculator equation taped to wings. If your understanding of propulsion begins and ends at static TWR, then by your logic half the world’s fighter development programs shouldn’t even work. The Sukhoi Su-57 literally demonstrated absurdly aggressive takeoff and acceleration performance in hot-and-high Bangalore conditions against aircraft like the F-35 Lightning II, HAL Tejas and Sukhoi Su-30MKI, which already tells you the propulsion-airframe integration is extremely capable in the real world. Meanwhile you’re sitting here pretending aerospace engineering is solved by punching a single ratio into a calculator. AL-31 evolving into AL-41 and later 177-class engines is a perfectly normal evolutionary propulsion path used by literally every major aerospace power, but apparently decades of real-world engineering matter less than your forum spreadsheet fantasies.
You genuinely don’t understand even your own argument. Nobody said Izdeliye 30/AL-51F is unnecessary. The point is that you’re pretending the current engines are somehow unusable for Indian conditions when the Russians themselves are already flying and demonstrating the Sukhoi Su-57 extensively with interim engines in environments far harsher than your forum spreadsheets. Every fighter program evolves through engine blocks, the F-35 Lightning II itself entered service before its originally envisioned propulsion roadmap matured, and even the AMCA is expected to evolve across engine generations. That’s normal aerospace development, not proof the aircraft is insufficient.
And your logic collapses instantly because if "future engine planned = current engine inadequate,” then by that standard almost every advanced fighter in existence was a failure during its early blocks. The Russians developed AL-51F because they want better thermal margins, efficiency, supercruise persistence and future growth potential, not because the aircraft suddenly cannot function in India without it. You keep confusing “not fully optimized” with “not viable,” which are two completely different things.
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All you have to offer is hot air. Without being able to do something as basic as TWR, merely dividing two numbers that I've already given you taxes you shows that you've got nothing to add to this discussion.
Lol, only one of us is known here for blowing hot air and got a nickname for it and it's not me.
You're acting like nobody here knows TWR = Engine Thrust/ Aircraft Weight. You keep hiding behind “just divide two numbers” because your entire understanding of fighter propulsion apparently begins and ends with a middle-school ratio, Congratulations, we’ve now covered high-school algebra. Now lets move onto adult talk, the problem is your entire argument falls apart because static TWR alone does not determine whether an engine-airframe combination is operationally viable, otherwise an unaerodynamic brick with TWR above 1 would fly like a fighter jet. Aerodynamics, lift generation, drag, inlet efficiency, control laws, wing loading, transient thrust response, thermal margins and overall airframe integration matter enormously. That’s why aircraft with similar paper TWRs can have completely different acceleration, climb, sustained turn and takeoff performance in reality. The Sukhoi Su-57 already demonstrated extremely aggressive acceleration and takeoff behavior in hot-and-high Bengaluru conditions while you’re still reducing one of the most complex engineering disciplines on Earth into “bro divide two numbers.” Sorry but aerospace engineering is slightly more advanced than your Reddit spreadsheet.
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