MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[DerBerserker]

The Russians will provide the same hardware but a different software. We will likely choose to replace that too, if we are serious about MKIzation.



It's not worth the billions in spending versus investing on 6th gen within the same timeframe.

The Su-57M1 seems to be stuck with 177. They are pushing this engine to the IAF too, which they definitely will not bite. And the twin-seat is expected to fly soon, but will take 4 years for certification followed by 3 years of MKIzation and 3 years of production. So 2037 for an operational jet, the same time it will take GCAP to enter IAF service. Or around 2034-35 for a direct import. The Americans and Europeans will definitely offer an alternative to the Su-60 by then, even if we don't enter their development programs.

S-70 can also be MKIzed alongside Su-60, but we need a more advanced variant.

The 57MKI and S-70MKI will the best eventuality for us at the moment, but the cost of lethargy and falling behind throughout the years must be paid. I think the IAF should induct the single seater 57s, it really seems like the best overall bet. In order to develop a 6th gen, we need to have a 5th gen of some sort. Europe can make the jump from 4.5 gens to 6th gens because they've got one of the most advanced aerospace complexes and weapons manufacturers in the world, India does not yet possess such production capabilities, which is our downfall.

 

[Tamilan57]

Our relationship with the EU is independent of Russia. And even they understand our position.

EU has said that their foreign policy will be more pragmatic after this Trump debacle.

That's why we had the India-EU free trade deal....

We will see whether EU flipflops or stays true to its word.

Either way, it would work in our favour if EU and Russia get along which is a pipe dream tbh.

 

[Tamilan57]

The 57MKI and S-70MKI will the best eventuality for us at the moment, but the cost of lethargy and falling behind throughout the years must be paid. I think the IAF should induct the single seater 57s, it really seems like the best overall bet. In order to develop a 6th gen, we need to have a 5th gen of some sort. Europe can make the jump from 4.5 gens to 6th gens because they've got one of the most advanced aerospace complexes and weapons manufacturers in the world, India does not yet possess such production capabilities, which is our downfall.

Are the SU-57 as good as it's hype? I mean we don't any other option as of now. Why aren't the Russians using them in Ukraine war?

Lots of uncertainty even amongst Russians.

IAF has allegedly conveyed to the GOI that no more Russian jets shall be considered for purchase. They are not happy with Russian jets for some reason.

 

[DerBerserker]

Are the SU-57 as good as it's hype? I mean we don't any other option as of now. Why aren't the Russians using them in Ukraine war?

Lots of uncertainty even amongst Russians.

IAF has allegedly conveyed to the GOI that no more Russian jets shall be considered for purchase. They are not happy with Russian jets for some reason.

The Russians absolutely are using them in the war, consistently so. Its just that they're not using them as Su-57s are almost always forbidden from leaving Russian airspace (this is why they only send out the T-50 prototypes for airshows or anything of the sort). If a Su-57 is shot down over hostile territory, it will absolutely be a major technological loss for the Russians as their wreckage will fall into western, and thus, American hands.
As far as the Russo-Ukrainian conflict is concerned, Su-57s are consistently used for long range A2G and A2A engagements. The former has been repeatedly confirmed with great success, and the latter is partially supported by some rumors, where it may have scored kills on Ukrainian Su-24s, Su-27s, and maybe even other types. The Su-57 also is known to fly in heavily contested airspace.
I really doubt the last bit about the IAF conveying anything to the MoD though, that seems just heavily unlikely. They did really grow fond of western airframes when they inducted the Mirage 2000, thanks to the reliability of the SNECMA M53 and so on but not at the expense of their maintstays which are the more modern variants of the designs, and the latest that Russia has to offer.

 

[Tamilan57]

The Russians absolutely are using them in the war, consistently so. Its just that they're not using them as Su-57s are almost always forbidden from leaving Russian airspace (this is why they only send out the T-50 prototypes for airshows or anything of the sort). If a Su-57 is shot down over hostile territory, it will absolutely be a major technological loss for the Russians as their wreckage will fall into western, and thus, American hands.
As far as the Russo-Ukrainian conflict is concerned, Su-57s are consistently used for long range A2G and A2A engagements. The former has been repeatedly confirmed with great success, and the latter is partially supported by some rumors, where it may have scored kills on Ukrainian Su-24s, Su-27s, and maybe even other types. The Su-57 also is known to fly in heavily contested airspace.
I really doubt the last bit about the IAF conveying anything to the MoD though, that seems just heavily unlikely. They did really grow fond of western airframes when they inducted the Mirage 2000, thanks to the reliability of the SNECMA M53 and so on but not at the expense of their maintstays which are the more modern variants of the designs, and the latest that Russia has to offer.

Can you quote some sources for SU57 being used in Russia-Ukraine war?

From what I remember, SU35 is doing the majority of their operations.

 

[DerBerserker]

There's plenty of pictures of it too.
But here's a few sources:

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/su57s-intensified-strikes-action

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/su57-cruise-missile-debut-ukraine

First Kill? Russian Su-57 Stealth Fighter Downs Ukrainian Su-27 Jet With New Long-Range Missile - Media Claims

Russian Su-57 fighter plane recently looks to have achieved its first kill by firing a new long-range missile to down a Ukrainian Su-27

www.eurasiantimes.com

https://defence-blog.com/russias-su-57-conducts-40-strikes-on-ukrainian-targets/

 

[Tamilan57]

There's plenty of pictures of it too.
But here's a few sources:

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/su57s-intensified-strikes-action

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/su57-cruise-missile-debut-ukraine

First Kill? Russian Su-57 Stealth Fighter Downs Ukrainian Su-27 Jet With New Long-Range Missile - Media Claims

Russian Su-57 fighter plane recently looks to have achieved its first kill by firing a new long-range missile to down a Ukrainian Su-27

www.eurasiantimes.com

https://defence-blog.com/russias-su-57-conducts-40-strikes-on-ukrainian-targets/

So basically limited operations within Russian controlled territory.

Despite having capable missiles (even stand off) and superior jets, Russia has not established air superiority or dominance over Ukraine.

Ukrainian air defence still stay intact and their AF is still able to operate fighter jets.

Any idea on the reasons for this?

 

[DerBerserker]

So basically limited operations within Russian controlled territory.

Despite having capable missiles (even stand off) and superior jets, Russia has not established air superiority or dominance over Ukraine.

Ukrainian air defence still stay intact and their AF is still able to operate fighter jets.

Any idea on the reasons for this?

The big issue I've noticed is that many think that the American/NATO doctrine is the only "right" way to conduct warfare. The designs of things like the MiG-23 and MiG-21 were always influenced by Soviet Doctrine, and the Su-57 follows through with this. Designed largely as defensive airframes, their entire purpose was to serve as missile delivery platforms, relying on GBI (Ground Based Interception) missile guidance wherever possible to guide their missiles towards hostile targets (hence why the Sapfir-23 was designed the way it was). The Su-57 also likely does the same thing, leveraging its lower RCS to sit further ahead, using the Sh-121 MIRES and its N036 Byelka AESA to guide missiles launched from DL networked Su-30s and Su-35s sitting further behind (where they're safer) onto targets deep into hostile territory. It doesn't need to go into the combat zone because its designed to be extremely hard to targeted and fired upon when at a distance, why put the aircraft at risk unnecessarily when you can do the exact same thing from relative safety far away? Ukrainian Air Defence is fine because they get constantly pumped full of equipment by NATO/the EU, and their Air Force has sustained losses of a similar number. The only real loss of the Su-57 was by a drone strike on a ground, that's not on the airframe, that's just down to area defence and C-UAS/Anti-drone defence.

Russia-Ukraine War — Military Losses Tracker (564+)

Track 564+ verified military losses in the Russia-Ukraine War: 522 aircraft destroyed, 42 naval losses.

www.globalmilitary.net

Had it been a war where they had no external support, I believe they'd have lost long, long ago. In some ways imo, this war is essentially Russia (and their supply chains in China, and a few in India) vs the entirety of NATO supporting a single country economically, militarily, and politically.

 

[Tamilan57]

The big issue I've noticed is that many think that the American/NATO doctrine is the only "right" way to conduct warfare. The designs of things like the MiG-23 and MiG-21 were always influenced by Soviet Doctrine, and the Su-57 follows through with this. Designed largely as defensive airframes, their entire purpose was to serve as missile delivery platforms, relying on GBI (Ground Based Interception) missile guidance wherever possible to guide their missiles towards hostile targets (hence why the Sapfir-23 was designed the way it was). The Su-57 also likely does the same thing, leveraging its lower RCS to sit further ahead, using the Sh-121 MIRES and its N036 Byelka AESA to guide missiles launched from DL networked Su-30s and Su-35s sitting further behind (where they're safer) onto targets deep into hostile territory. It doesn't need to go into the combat zone because its designed to be extremely hard to targeted and fired upon when at a distance, why put the aircraft at risk unnecessarily when you can do the exact same thing from relative safety far away? Ukrainian Air Defence is fine because they get constantly pumped full of equipment by NATO/the EU, and their Air Force has sustained losses of a similar number. The only real loss of the Su-57 was by a drone strike on a ground, that's not on the airframe, that's just down to area defence and C-UAS/Anti-drone defence.
View attachment 51136

Russia-Ukraine War — Military Losses Tracker (564+)

Track 564+ verified military losses in the Russia-Ukraine War: 522 aircraft destroyed, 42 naval losses.

www.globalmilitary.net

Had it been a war where they had no external support, I believe they'd have lost long, long ago. In some ways imo, this war is essentially Russia (and their supply chains in China, and a few in India) vs the entirety of NATO supporting a single country economically, militarily, and politically.

Damaging runways and penetrating air bases like we did in OP Sindhoor. Even if NATO/EU keeps helping Ukrainians with Air defence systems and new fighter jets, Russia can still destroy the air bases from where jets take off. Not to mention the runway damage.

They have got the missiles to do the trick. Much superior to Indian missiles. Whats stopping them from bombing air bases and runways?

I know that Russia has done destroyed some air bases in Ukraine. but if they are able to operate jets from other bases, whats stopping them from penetrating all air bases in Ukraine?

When I posed this question to 'Gunners Shot' youtube channel, General Shankar said this will be covered in a separate session with Air defence expert. That session has not taken place yet.

 

[DerBerserker]

Damaging runways and penetrating air bases like we did in OP Sindhoor. Even if NATO/EU keeps helping Ukrainians with Air defence systems and new fighter jets, Russia can still destroy the air bases from where jets take off. Not to mention the runway damage.

They have got the missiles to do the trick. Much superior to Indian missiles. Whats stopping them from bombing air bases and runways?

When I posed this question to 'Gunners Shot' youtube channel, General Shankar said this will be covered in a separate session with Air defence expert. That session has not taken place yet.

I feel like the reason is that Ukraine has an insanely high saturation of air defences, they consistently use their fighters to intercept Cruise missiles, use their CAMMs (ASRAAM-based SAMs) and NASAMS (AIM-120s) systems regularly. That doesn't include their PAC/Patriot Advanced Capability and S-300s for longer range engagements. A single Kh-59MK2 (LO ALCM used on the Su-57) costs about ~500,000USD, meanwhile the Ukrainians are using low cost Laser-guided APKWS interceptors to take them out at a fraction of the cost (each APKWS Missile costs ~25,000USD). Both sides use drones, and drones are the most inexpensive weapon there is in this war. I do think Indian munitions have the potential to outpace Russian ones very quickly, and some already likely have.

 

[spice]

Big Boost for IAF: India Pushes for Weapon Flexibility in 114 Rafale Mega Deal | Exclusive

India is in negotiations with Dassault for a significant deal involving 114 Rafale fighters. A crucial Interface Control Document (ICD) is essential for integrating various weapons, allowing India to independently upgrade the aircraft in the future. , India News, Times Now

www.timesnownews.com

"We will tell them to give us the ICD, ideally. The contract, currently being negotiated, will make it clear that it is required. In our discussions, they have agreed," highly-placed government sources said. What it will do is ensure unilateral upgrade capability, meaning that in the future India can fit weapons onto the plane without going back to Dassault. And this applies to not just Indian weapons, but theoretically, weapons made by a third country. The French Scalp cruise missile is likely to be fitted onto the plane. The Defence Acquisition Council, headed by defence minister Rajnath Singh, has already cleared the Scalp's purchase. Other weapon systems being considered include the Hammer precision guided munitions.

Indian missiles like the Astra-2 (which is under development and can have a range of 200 km+ is an option), as also, quite possibly the BrahMos-NG cruise missile with a range of at least 300 km, under development and considerably lighter than the one in use, can be fitted onto the plane, if necessary. The deal can be signed in about six months, if everything goes well, sources added. Levels of indigenous content is still an issue. India is hoping that it can reach about 50 percent, which will boost indigenous manufacturing.

 

[batman]

Ngl, some people in this sub like randomradio and maybe picdel a bit feels like propogandists for france, grossly exaggerating the capabilities of rafale while downplaying others which are a generation ahead.

 

[randomradio]

The planned engine on the Su-57 is the Izdeliye 30, the AL-51F1 (which produces 177kN of thrust). The derivative engine made from Izd. 30 is the Project 177S, which is a combination of the AL-51F1 and the AL-41F1. That is the engine which can replace the AL-31Fs on the Flanker-H, Flanker-M, and Fullbacks. This will also be, in all likeliness, the engine an export 57M1E will have.

The 177 is an upgrade over the 117 and 177S is a dropfit version for the Flanker compared to 117S, which requires some work. But all these engines are still derivatives of the AL-31FP. It's essentially the same old non-modular engine that's difficult to maintain and has largely 4th gen capabilities as a whole, even if TWR has been raised to 5th gen.

The 117S/117 are 13 stage engines, 4 LPC and 9 HPC. 177S/177 are 11 or 12 stage engines, 3 LPC and 8 or 9 HPC. And Izd 30 is a clean-sheet modular design with 8 stages, 3 LPC and 5 HPC. It plays a huge part in the Su-57's stealth, performance, and logistics chain. The 177 essentially drops the Su-57 down by a generation.

The 177S is a good upgrade for a Flanker/Fullback, that's about it.

The 57MKI and S-70MKI will the best eventuality for us at the moment, but the cost of lethargy and falling behind throughout the years must be paid. I think the IAF should induct the single seater 57s, it really seems like the best overall bet. In order to develop a 6th gen, we need to have a 5th gen of some sort. Europe can make the jump from 4.5 gens to 6th gens because they've got one of the most advanced aerospace complexes and weapons manufacturers in the world, India does not yet possess such production capabilities, which is our downfall.

Not without the Izd 30. It makes no sense without it.

 

[lmaoxd]

Ngl, some people in this sub like randomradio and maybe picdel a bit feels like propogandists for france, grossly exaggerating the capabilities of rafale while downplaying others which are a generation ahead.

If the rafale was as good as these people claim then there would be no need for the AMCA lol.

 

[randomradio]

EU has said that their foreign policy will be more pragmatic after this Trump debacle.

That's why we had the India-EU free trade deal....

We will see whether EU flipflops or stays true to its word.

Either way, it would work in our favour if EU and Russia get along which is a pipe dream tbh.

The EU is pro-India/China, but anti-Modi/Xi. They want their pets back in power, RaGa and the pro-Globalist factions. So they are looking at what they think will happen over the long term, ie, after Hinduism is defeated and their version of communism wins in India and China.

The Chinese have 3 anti-Xi factions who want to oust Xi. 2 civilians and a military general called Zhang Youxia.

Zhang began a Xi-loyalist cleanup of the military in 2023 and 2024 where he targeted generals who were loyal to Xi. Then the civilian factions headed by Li Ruihuan and Wen Jiabao put pressure on Xi directly using the economy as an excuse that allowed them to interfere in Xi's policies.

You can see their smug faces here, when Xi was forced to make some space for these two.

【图集】中共领导人与十多位前常委等出席国庆75周年招待会

庆祝中华人民共和国成立75周年国庆招待会星期一（9月30日）在北京举行，中共总书记习近平等中共领导人，以及温家宝等十多名已卸任的中共政治局前常委等参加活动。

www.zaobao.com.sg

Zhang Youxia got purged a few months ago. He was essentially the number 2 guy after Xi in the CMC. So this purge finally cements Xi's power in China. Plus Zhang is a so-called princeling, meaning he is related to top communist leaders from the time of the revolution just like Xi. He has the "red genes" basically. And these guys are supposed to be untouchable.

Check out details of this major general called Mao Xinyu. He's Mao's grandson, but seems to be mentally unfit for the post. This goes to show how much they care about maintaining their pureblood status to maintain power. Only princelings can ascend to power in China.

And a guy with red genes, a princeling, was purged.

Even publicly famous individuals who were Globalist loyalists like Jack Ma were purged by Xi.

So with China slipping out of the hands of the Globalists, the Europeans and Democrats have no choice but to maintain friendly relations with India until Xi loses power, in the meantime hoping for Congress to win general elections in India.

 

[randomradio]

So basically limited operations within Russian controlled territory.

Despite having capable missiles (even stand off) and superior jets, Russia has not established air superiority or dominance over Ukraine.

Ukrainian air defence still stay intact and their AF is still able to operate fighter jets.

Any idea on the reasons for this?

It's currently doing exactly what it's designed to do, fire missiles at adversaries in the air and on the ground from long range.

I know that Russia has done destroyed some air bases in Ukraine. but if they are able to operate jets from other bases, whats stopping them from penetrating all air bases in Ukraine?

When I posed this question to 'Gunners Shot' youtube channel, General Shankar said this will be covered in a separate session with Air defence expert. That session has not taken place yet.

They are not fighting with all their capabilities. Both in the air and on the ground. They are retaining the bulk of their military capacity for a potential NATO attack. So even their ground operations are measured and limited to just 1 or 2 operations at a time.

 

[randomradio]

Ngl, some people in this sub like randomradio and maybe picdel a bit feels like propogandists for france

IAF too.

 

[randomradio]

If the rafale was as good as these people claim then there would be no need for the AMCA lol.

True, but with caveats. Rafale F4 and F5 will be behind the AMCA in terms of avionics capabilities, essentially two generations and a generation resply, and some kinematic advantages due to the addition of WBs. And narrowband passive stealth helps improve survivability against fire control and BVR, 6-18/40 GHz, not detection and tracking.

And obviously the main goal is indigenization. TEDBF is more useless compared to Rafale and we are still going after it, never mind applying the same rule to AMCA.

Furthermore, just like TEDBF, AMCA is also limited in design due to ADA's lack of experience. If MKI was our own jet, we wouldn't have bothered with Rafale, and if Rafale was our own jet, we wouldn't have bothered with AMCA. We would have chased after a 6th gen design instead, just like the Europeans are today. So yeah, our own Rafale would have negated the need for AMCA.

AMCA was always meant to be complemented by a 6th gen jet. I had always assumed a 2-3 squadron stopgap import (2040+) before ADA develops a successor (2050+), but it seems the IAF wants 6 squadrons minimum via a JV. Naturally, if Rafale was our own, its successor would have been the Indian SCAF, not AMCA.

AMCA will now be the stepping stone for the Indian SCAF++ or even a 7th gen. The Europeans are skipping 5th gen, so I would like to see IAF/ADA skip 6th gen. The timeframe meets that objective (2055+), with SCAF/GCAP JV sitting in the 2040-55 bracket.

The IAF doesn't consider aircraft like F-22, AMCA, Su-57 etc as true stealth due to their inability to avoid detection.

 

[DerBerserker]

Big Boost for IAF: India Pushes for Weapon Flexibility in 114 Rafale Mega Deal | Exclusive

India is in negotiations with Dassault for a significant deal involving 114 Rafale fighters. A crucial Interface Control Document (ICD) is essential for integrating various weapons, allowing India to independently upgrade the aircraft in the future. , India News, Times Now

www.timesnownews.com

"We will tell them to give us the ICD, ideally. The contract, currently being negotiated, will make it clear that it is required. In our discussions, they have agreed," highly-placed government sources said. What it will do is ensure unilateral upgrade capability, meaning that in the future India can fit weapons onto the plane without going back to Dassault. And this applies to not just Indian weapons, but theoretically, weapons made by a third country. The French Scalp cruise missile is likely to be fitted onto the plane. The Defence Acquisition Council, headed by defence minister Rajnath Singh, has already cleared the Scalp's purchase. Other weapon systems being considered include the Hammer precision guided munitions.

Indian missiles like the Astra-2 (which is under development and can have a range of 200 km+ is an option), as also, quite possibly the BrahMos-NG cruise missile with a range of at least 300 km, under development and considerably lighter than the one in use, can be fitted onto the plane, if necessary. The deal can be signed in about six months, if everything goes well, sources added. Levels of indigenous content is still an issue. India is hoping that it can reach about 50 percent, which will boost indigenous manufacturing.

The Astra Mk2s with the upgraded 240km range have just finished initial tests according to some reports, those will help us achieve parity with the PL-15. Though to match the PL-16, we will need Gandiva/Astra Mk3 to be inducted rapidly. Once that's happened, it will give us a huge advantage in the AAM department, since we won't be reliant on MICA EM/IRs (including, possibly the future MICA NG EM/IRs) and METEORs on the Rafales. It would also allow us to integrate things like the SAAW, possibly even the ASRAAM and Rudrams. To add to that, the localised production of the AASM HAMMER (especially the XLRs) makes them a rather lucrative choice too. Afaik the IAF's posturing has always been that there will be no deal without ICD access, and France has likely acquiesced to our demands for it.

The 177 is an upgrade over the 117 and 177S is a dropfit version for the Flanker compared to 117S, which requires some work. But all these engines are still derivatives of the AL-31FP. It's essentially the same old non-modular engine that's difficult to maintain and has largely 4th gen capabilities as a whole, even if TWR has been raised to 5th gen.

The 117S/117 are 13 stage engines, 4 LPC and 9 HPC. 177S/177 are 11 or 12 stage engines, 3 LPC and 8 or 9 HPC. And Izd 30 is a clean-sheet modular design with 8 stages, 3 LPC and 5 HPC. It plays a huge part in the Su-57's stealth, performance, and logistics chain. The 177 essentially drops the Su-57 down by a generation.

The 177S is a good upgrade for a Flanker/Fullback, that's about it.



Not without the Izd 30. It makes no sense without it.

The 177S is still derived from Izd. 30 (AL-51F1) and the 41F1. From what I know it is the engine that will be offered to us, and even then its utilisation doesn't nullify the geometric stealth of the airframe. It will still be miles ahead of any 4.5 Gen in the world in terms of stealth even with the 177S, and it might slot into our 30MKI logistical and supply chain a bit more seamlessly that way, especially if the 30MKI Super upgrade plan ends up having it replace its current AL-31FPs with the 177Ss. Its power generation was bumped up too iirc, in which case, in all but complexity and sophistication it should be able to do what is expected of it.
The AL-51F1 might, no doubt, be a superior engine but can we actually expect to get our hands on it? Russia probably will not offer it to India for a few reasons and certainly not just yet. Besides, we still need a 5th Gen either way. Our current position means we need an interim 5th gen aircraft until the AMCA enters service, and if a Su-57MKI with 177Ss does the job its meant to do, then why worry about it? Of course, it'd be the best case scenario if we were to get the Izdeliye 30, but one must temper their expectations when it comes to being in our situation and look at what manages to get the job done. Which the 177S, quite frankly for the time being, will.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The Astra Mk2s with the upgraded 240km range have just finished initial tests according to some reports, those will help us achieve parity with the PL-15. Though to match the PL-16, we will need Gandiva/Astra Mk3 to be inducted rapidly. Once that's happened, it will give us a huge advantage in the AAM department, since we won't be reliant on MICA EM/IRs (including, possibly the future MICA NG EM/IRs) and METEORs on the Rafales. It would also allow us to integrate things like the SAAW, possibly even the ASRAAM and Rudrams. To add to that, the localised production of the AASM HAMMER (especially the XLRs) makes them a rather lucrative choice too. Afaik the IAF's posturing has always been that there will be no deal without ICD access, and France has likely acquiesced to our demands for it.


The 177S is still derived from Izd. 30 (AL-51F1) and the 41F1. From what I know it is the engine that will be offered to us, and even then its utilisation doesn't nullify the geometric stealth of the airframe. It will still be miles ahead of any 4.5 Gen in the world in terms of stealth even with the 177S, and it might slot into our 30MKI logistical and supply chain a bit more seamlessly that way, especially if the 30MKI Super upgrade plan ends up having it replace its current AL-31FPs with the 177Ss. Its power generation was bumped up too iirc, in which case, in all but complexity and sophistication it should be able to do what is expected of it.
The AL-51F1 might, no doubt, be a superior engine but can we actually expect to get our hands on it? Russia probably will not offer it to India for a few reasons and certainly not just yet. Besides, we still need a 5th Gen either way. Our current position means we need an interim 5th gen aircraft until the AMCA enters service, and if a Su-57MKI with 177Ss does the job its meant to do, then why worry about it? Of course, it'd be the best case scenario if we were to get the Izdeliye 30, but one must temper their expectations when it comes to being in our situation and look at what manages to get the job done. Which the 177S, quite frankly for the time being, will.

Russians plan to evolve Su-57 into 6th gen fighter for which it will need VCE engines. Maybe they are planning to evolve AL-51F1 further into a three-stream engine hence 177 not 177S may turn into the definitive engines for the second stage M program.

We have been offered both 177S with 142KN max power and 177 with 158KN max power(108KN on military power). Let's see what we choose.