Israel, US Strike Iran After Weeks Of Warning, Explosions Heard In Tehran

[MS Sandhu]

So what kind of Pr ASM & ATACM resembling the US & Ukraine does Paxtan have in its inventory that it didn't use in the 4 day war out of the goodness of its heart .

Fatah series is exactly the copy of American Himars/ATACMs/PrSM series.
And Pakistan actually fired multiple F-1s in May conflict. And Fatah-2 is widely adopted across army's rocket force and Navy's anti-ship arsenal.so F-2 - the PrSM equivalent, PrSM is single missile/launcher system while two F2s can be fired simultaneously from single launcher - Russian Iskandar style system but canisterized.
1000km ranged F-5 is also under development purely for conventional war.

Yet after 7th May , PAF was nowhere to be seen. As far as BMs go how many BMs do you have ?

Here's an assessment of your industrial capabilities from a member Anupu of another forum.

PAF fired multiple CM400akg - the only conventional use missile in its inventory after 7th May.
General ground strikes were conducted by Army's Fatah-1 (Pak's HIMARS eq.) rockets.

And comparing just the BM missile production to that of Iran is also a hypocrisy when Iran has only focused on Ballistic Missile/drone production.
While Pakistan puts heavy focus on Air Force.
Pakistan's MRBMs are high tech and reserved for Nuclear strikes only not for conventional use so MRBM numbers are limited.
Only recently (post 2019) , focus was shifted towards development of conventional use short range missile production.
And we have come a long way since then.
In only 2016 , Pakistan imported 244 Turbojet engines from Ukraine and Czech Republic for cruise missile and IREK production.

 

[CATS @hunter]

This is exactly what puts india on back foot.The offence has become much cheaper than defence.

no it dosent puts india on the back foot, to the contary it puts india on the sweet spot,

Mach 3 speed ballistic missile like American PrSM in Iran and ATACMs in Ukraine has proved very lethal to SAM networks

interceptor have speed of mach 4 & 5 engaging missile on upper atmosphere and mid course phase have a high kill probality, unless it dosent leaves the atmosphere or flies in high hypersonic regime, have marv and decoy system, or a manoeuvrable missile,
the pdv and S400 missile have speed of mach 8 mach 10 and more, you are also forgeting that uae alone intercepted more than 537 ballistic missile alone

US/Isr had total air superiority over Iran - something IAF can only dream about - still Iran was able to fire hundreds of drones and missiles to Israel ( yes big nasty MR Ballistic Missiles daily ) and Gulfies.

iran was able to fire because they had build tunnels throught the country over a decade, and stockpile of over 15years and more, that was thier only detternce and the invested on them, but whats the current production capablities zero, the usa isarel have destroyed thier industry, what the still have is stockpiles of missiles they had over the years, its not a make a wish and missiles will appear automatically, missile needs - propulsion, guidance, carbon componets, heat shield, thrust controllers,
from where do you think iran was getting soild fuel for the missiles,

does pakistan have those ecosytem, big chemical industries for high grade aerospace, defence, automobile, electronics no it dosen't its anet importer, the guidance systems- ballistic missile have poor accuarcy for that you need high precision INS, advanced ring laser fibre optics gyroscope, carbon carbon componets, alloys, raw materials, rocket motors, it source its from china at greater share, without them they are toothless, and most of the missiles are old chinese and north korean desgin,
whereas india has big ecosystem for missile and rocket system, theres now half a dozen of private companies who make space rocket engines, it has got the capital the technology,
nor pakistan has indigienous Ad systems, the magazine depth will over in a month nor it has bigger geographic locations to move the assests nor the large underground tunnel system, nor the industry to back the production capabalites,

 

[randomradio]

How are they going to rebuild when anything military / semi military is bombed to ground?
Iran got very cruel beating and is effectively cut to its size. It's no longer a regional power when even UAE with its mirage 2000 can bomb it if Iran pokes it.

For any learning to incorporate in the weapon systems, you need a functional military infrastructure that's in case of Iran is bombed out.

As long as the economy is intact, rebuilding is easy. The war's boosted their economy instead, due to the inflated oil prices.

 

[babablacksheep]

This is exactly what puts india on back foot.The offence has become much cheaper than defence.
Mach 3 speed ballistic missile like American PrSM in Iran and ATACMs in Ukraine has proved very lethal to SAM networks.
US/Isr had total air superiority over Iran - something IAF can only dream about - still Iran was able to fire hundreds of drones and missiles to Israel ( yes big nasty MR Ballistic Missiles daily ) and Gulfies.

As i said, india in this age and day can't fight a offensive war against Pakistan neither can Pakistan go on any Gibraltar style offensives.

In a conventional war


Pakistan is not Iran.

Both your offensive & defensive capabilities are relatively easy to suppress.

Unlike Iran which has spend decades making their offensive capabilities survivable under siege & making their structure still functional even after heavy degradation & high tolerance for taking damage.

Pakistan's conventional structure, equipments, allow none such abilities.


It is only Pakistani nukes that keep the threshold low enough, that pakistan can engage us in small scale, short duration conventional battles.

 

[randomradio]

This is exactly what puts india on back foot.The offence has become much cheaper than defence.
Mach 3 speed ballistic missile like American PrSM in Iran and ATACMs in Ukraine has proved very lethal to SAM networks.
US/Isr had total air superiority over Iran - something IAF can only dream about - still Iran was able to fire hundreds of drones and missiles to Israel ( yes big nasty MR Ballistic Missiles daily ) and Gulfies.

As i said, india in this age and day can't fight a offensive war against Pakistan neither can Pakistan go on any Gibraltar style offensives.

Pak does not have even 10% of the firepower Iran does and India is preparing for war with China. There's no comparison.

 

[DoraemonMaxxer]

India doesn't have muslces of fighting a full scale war with Pakistan. The first 16 days munitions cost for US-Israel & Gulf was about 26B USD and we are not counting any losses yet.

We have .... one of the best weapon against Pakistan in a shooting contest. DHA. The moment we start hitting DHA in Punjab, the moment Pakistan will surrender or seek ceasefire.

Road to victory against Pakistan is via Punjab, specifically via DHAs. Because Pakistan is a corrupt military with a nation and not the other way round.

 

[thinkingcap81]

There must be a rational basis on which Pakistan mil is consistently ranked much higher than Iranian mil. India will have a lot of difficulties in suppressing Pakistan - deaths of hundreds or thousands of soldiers is one of them.

I think that a huge war will not happen by choice anytime soon, though skirmishes may become more deadly in the immediate future.

 

[babablacksheep]

There must be a rational basis on which Pakistan mil is consistently ranked much higher than Iranian mil. India will have a lot of difficulties in suppressing Pakistan - deaths of hundreds or thousands of soldiers is one of them.

I think that a huge war will not happen by choice anytime soon, though skirmishes may become more deadly in the immediate future.

It depends, countries develop/buy weapons, create doctrine tailored to the specific threat they face, different capabilities are developed.

But in general ranking Pakistan above Iran in conventional capabilities, is very ignorant at best.
Most of these sites & their rankings on paper, can be/is highly misleading when it comes to actual operational effectiveness.

 

[thinkingcap81]

It depends, countries develop/buy weapons, create doctrine tailored to the specific threat they face, different capabilities are developed.

But in general ranking Pakistan above Iran in conventional capabilities, is very ignorant at best.
Most of these sites & their rankings on paper, can be/is highly misleading when it comes to actual operational effectiveness.

In these comparisons, i suppose that a lot of emphasis is placed on air power - Pak is much more stronger than Iran in this aspect, and our offensive air power for a sustained campaign is yet to be built up.

The main reason for an Indo-Pak war to not get serious any time soon is the lack of appetite for it. So we will be witnessing methods to demonstrate an upper hand while trying to manage the situation from taking a life of its own. The good thing is that India is increasingly getting into a better position to demonstrate this capability.

 

[CATS @hunter]

There must be a rational basis on which Pakistan mil is consistently ranked much higher than Iranian mil. India will have a lot of difficulties in suppressing Pakistan - deaths of hundreds or thousands of soldiers is one of them.

War depends on lot of things but the the key things are how self reliant you are, the economic capabilities, geographical advantage, industrial and manufacturing Power, pakistan has none of this, it can fight Short conflict but it can't fight longer one own it's own without any significant help from other's,
If Iran pakistan fight happened, Iran would have launched the ballastic missiles & drones at pakistan Air bases, pakistan doesn't have the geographic advantage nor it has the AD to counter it, Thier air assets would have been destroyed in a week's, and pakistan can't do anything to prevent, the land and navy arms don't have edge over Iran, it would have turned the tide in Iran favour, wars are not fought in symmetric manner nowadays, there's no rule of engagements,

 

[CATS @hunter]

The main reason for an Indo-Pak war to not get serious any time soon is the lack of appetite for it.

Yes it's lack of appetite from indian political leaders, if indra gandhi wanted she could have had free run western pakistan, but she stopped, so did Modi, atal bajpayee, Shastri Ji,

And the nukes, with nukes there's lot of constraints, what's the threshold level what to fire what not to fire, in recent times india has tested the water, and they are increasing the thresholds, calling out the bulf, India's strength is in long prolongated war where it can easily bleed pakistan out, but we are increasing our capabilities for rapid strikes in Short times, that's why there's new doctrine and capabilities are being built,

 

[thinkingcap81]

War depends on lot of things but the the key things are how self reliant you are, the economic capabilities, geographical advantage, industrial and manufacturing Power, pakistan has none of this, it can fight Short conflict but it can't fight longer one own it's own without any significant help from other's,
If Iran pakistan fight happened, Iran would have launched the ballastic missiles & drones at pakistan Air bases, pakistan doesn't have the geographic advantage nor it has the AD to counter it, Thier air assets would have been destroyed in a week's, and pakistan can't do anything to prevent, the land and navy arms don't have edge over Iran, it would have turned the tide in Iran favour, wars are not fought in symmetric manner nowadays, there's no rule of engagements,

You're right. Iran built its capabilities around sustainained retaliation because they knew that USA has enormous firepower. Pakistan wants to give a bloody nose to India, so their strategy is different. But I'm quite sure that selling a long war to the Indian public is not easy.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Fatah series is exactly the copy of American Himars/ATACMs/PrSM series.

Yes & it's a poor man's HIMAR / ATACM .

And Pakistan actually fired multiple F-1s in May conflict.

To what effect. They , the other CMs & the drones you fired all were taken down successfully by our IACCS.

And Fatah-2 is widely adopted across army's rocket force and Navy's anti-ship arsenal.so F-2 - the PrSM equivalent, PrSM is single missile/launcher system while two F2s can be fired simultaneously from single launcher - Russian Iskandar style system but canisterized.
1000km ranged F-5 is also under development purely for conventional war.

All I can say is best of luck. You fire them , they get taken down & we retaliate with superior firepower like Brahmos , the results were still visible up until recently in some bases.

PAF fired multiple CM400akg - the only conventional use missile in its inventory after 7th May.
General ground strikes were conducted by Army's Fatah-1 (Pak's HIMARS eq.) rockets.

Another failure. How many targets could you take out ? Basically with S-400 the quarantine zone for your FAs begins at 200 kms from the IB / LAC . That's what the range is of those CM-400 AKG.

And comparing just the BM missile production to that of Iran is also a hypocrisy when Iran has only focused on Ballistic Missile/drone production.
While Pakistan puts heavy focus on Air Force.
Pakistan's

That's right. Your PAF was to hold the IAF at the very least & the last conflict saw them incapable of doing that so what's your go to option for offensive firepower ?

Frankly I doubt your BM production capacities is as much as being made out . You could still be importing them from DPRK in SKD kits & assembling them here. Paxtan's industrial capacity isn't even rudimentary .

MRBMs are high tech and reserved for Nuclear strikes only not for conventional use so MRBM numbers are limited.

Seems like a doctrinal error especially since you don't have an integrated ADS which renders your air power ineffective plus the lack of depth in Paxtan & the fact that most of your AFBs are within 200 kms range from the IB / LAC means you start out with a massive disadvantage.

Better patch up with the Talibunnies for strategic depth.

Only recently (post 2019) , focus was shifted towards development of conventional use short range missile production.

And what do you have to show for it ? After all 2019 though "fairly recent₹ as per you is 6 years in the past.

And we have come a long way since then.
In only 2016 , Pakistan imported 244 Turbojet engines from Ukraine and Czech Republic for cruise missile and IREK production.

I see. How did you utilize those turbojets ?

 

[CATS @hunter]

But I'm quite sure that selling a long war to the Indian public is not easy.

Yeah selling a Long war to the Indian public is not easy but it also not difficult, the republic has seen Hard Times, the economic trouble, militancy, gas trajedy, what not but the republic held on, many people had said the the republic Will not last long and it will dissolved and yet the republic grew stronger and stronger every year, our unity is the strength, the patriotism & nationalism runs deeper, and it's pakistan ppl will donate everything to see them get beaten

 

[babablacksheep]

In these comparisons, i suppose that a lot of emphasis is placed on air power - Pak is much more stronger than Iran in this aspect, and our offensive air power for a sustained campaign is yet to be built up.

The main reason for an Indo-Pak war to not get serious any time soon is the lack of appetite for it. So we will be witnessing methods to demonstrate an upper hand while trying to manage the situation from taking a life of its own. The good thing is that India is increasingly getting into a better position to demonstrate this capability.

Remember operation sindoor, where after the 7th may strike on Pakistani terror assests & subsequent air-battle, we completey dominated Pakistan on followup days.


Pakistan's airdefense cover is quite shallow, with only few decent airdefense systems, their geography also doesn't have strategic depth.

Its not hard to force large percent of Pakistan's airforce to be grounded by destroying their shallow air defense cover & then air-bases, HVA, fighters.

Their operational methodology is also not flexible, highly dependent on few key nodes.


Pakistan also doesn't have a 10th of punishment taking capacity without collapsing that Iran has shown.

 

[screambowl]

That's long term. We are at the bare minimum a decade away from peak oil. And our oil imports will exceed 8 mbpd by 2030 to feed our expanded refinery capacity. And it will stay that way until the 2040s.

And even if we switch completely away from oil for transportation and power production, we will still need that much oil to produce petrochemicals. Who knows how long it's going to take to create alternatives there.

India's graph is nonsensical as claimed at the bottom, but you can see the trend in China even with current policies. So even our petrochem/petroleum consumption will flip by 2050.

Replacing petrochems with biomass is half a century-level effort.

India doesn't have any other option then or go find new resources globally like other global powers do.

 

[lmaoxd]

India doesn't have any other option then or go find new resources globally like other global powers do.

You know there is a reason for that 20B USD tender for driiling and deepwater equipment right? India does have reserves in the Deepwater parts of the country. Hell we have significant shale reservers in rajasthan itself but theyre trapped in tighter fills so they need horizontal drilling.

Cairn is investing 5 billion and even more over the decade to hit a 1 million bpd target in rajasthan and gujarat using shale oil.
whether they hit 1 million bpd is something else but they will if they can double or triple their current production it will be very significant.

 

[MS Sandhu]

Pak does not have even 10% of the firepower Iran does and India is preparing for war with China. There's no comparison.

Our One F-16 carries the fire power that Iran can't match with 10 Ballistic Missiles. Welcome to real world my friend.

 

[babablacksheep]

Our One F-16 carries the fire power that Iran can't match with 10 Ballistic Missiles. Welcome to real world my friend.
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Iran has 1000s of ballistic missiles.

You guys has ~250, 4th gen & above fighters, ~100 3rd gen older ones than can only be relegated to strike/support role with low sortie generation.

You guys also don’t have strategic depth to relocate your fighter jets away to farther airfields, away from the range of Iranian missiles & drones.
Neither do you guys have sufficient air defense cover to cover entire country & most of of your airfield & especially low amount air defense systems that can intercept ballistic missiles.


The no. Of air launched stand off munitions that Pakistan has are also fairy low & aircraft are a platform that need *Weapons* to attack.

 

[Subgradewalker]

In these comparisons, i suppose that a lot of emphasis is placed on air power - Pak is much more stronger than Iran in this aspect, and our offensive air power for a sustained campaign is yet to be built up.

The main reason for an Indo-Pak war to not get serious any time soon is the lack of appetite for it. So we will be witnessing methods to demonstrate an upper hand while trying to manage the situation from taking a life of its own. The good thing is that India is increasingly getting into a better position to demonstrate this capability.

Nukes.. it's all about nukes.

Give IRGC nukes and it's ranking will shoot up.
Nukes are basically a ticket to the premium of premium seat with ample leg space to have a go at things lest a super-police comes knocking on your doors.