India eyes 6th generation FCAS, looks at tying up with France for possible collaboration

Rajput Lion said:
Even USAF is worried about J-20 + PL-15 combo. If we weren't then we now definitely are post last years' Ops.
Click to expand...

The USAF is dealing with a different environment, where the Chinese ground terrain is urban and extremely well developed. Tibet is the complete opposite of that.

Rajput Lion said:
J-20 is VLO, especially from front with lower RCS than -30dBsm. The newer variant J-20A with WS-15 engines are even less prominent on radar and with WS-15 they can even supercruise at Mach 1.5+.
Click to expand...

Even the Chinese don't claim VLO for the J-20.

All those macro-level internet RCS studies are unreliable.

Rajput Lion said:
J-35 was rejected by PLAAF for J-20. It isn't superior than J-20 in any attribute, be it stealth, supercruise, range etc.
Click to expand...

The jet that competed with J-20 was a different, unknown Shenyang model. J-35 is a variant of the J-31 which was made for export. But because the PLAN started late and J-15 failed, they picked the J-31 for development. Now both PLAN and PLAAF are gonna induct it.

As per the Chinese themselves, the J-35 is more stealthy than the J-20. And based on their revelations, it's at least 10 times bigger than the F-22. That makes them essentially one step away from VLO. J-20 is likely to be 100 times bigger than the F-22.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shekhar Singh
randomradio said:
The USAF is dealing with a different environment, where the Chinese ground terrain is urban and extremely well developed. Tibet is the complete opposite of that.



Even the Chinese don't claim VLO for the J-20.

All those macro-level internet RCS studies are unreliable.
Click to expand...
At least they give us some rough estimates, which show that J-20 is indeed VLO.
randomradio said:
The jet that competed with J-20 was a different, unknown Shenyang model. J-35 is a variant of the J-31 which was made for export. But because the PLAN started late and J-15 failed, they picked the J-31 for development. Now both PLAN and PLAAF are gonna induct it.

As per the Chinese themselves, the J-35 is more stealthy than the J-20. And based on their revelations, it's at least 10 times bigger than the F-22. That makes them essentially one step away from VLO. J-20 is likely to be 100 times bigger than the F-22.
Click to expand...
J-20 has evolved into J-20A and is a serious threat to IAF jets. J-36 & J-XDS are going to be ELO(-70dBsm) and that too from most aspects and Radar Bands. It is never advised to underestimate an enemy. Chinese growing stealth fleet is a serious threat to us. That is why we will procure Su-57s before AMCA's induction and are joining FCAS/Tempest to counter their 5th & 6th gen jets respectively.
 
Rajput Lion said:
At least they give us some rough estimates, which show that J-20 is indeed VLO.
Click to expand...

The Chinese themselves say it's not VLO. I don't know what to say beyond that.

They are actually saying on national TV how they are catching up on stealth tech with America using the J-35.

Both Su-57 and J-20 are designed around a "working stealth" concept with air defense in mind. Meaning, they are survivable only inside their own airspace.

I don't know about the J-20's future, but Su-57's future variants are being designed for VLO.

Rajput Lion said:
J-20 has evolved into J-20A and is a serious threat to IAF jets. J-36 & J-XDS are going to be ELO(-70dBsm) and that too from most aspects and Radar Bands. It is never advised to underestimate an enemy. Chinese growing stealth fleet is a serious threat to us. That is why we will procure Su-57s before AMCA's induction and are joining FCAS/Tempest to counter their 5th & 6th gen jets respectively.
Click to expand...

The J-36 is definitely designed for all-aspect multi-spectral stealth, but calling it ELO would be a stretch. But it definitely exceeds the capabilities of the F-22 and F-35. And that's a threat.

The J-20 is a permissive environment fighter. If it cannot penetrate the IAF's ADS, then it's only a missile threat, and missiles are much more easily defeated by EW.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
randomradio said:
As per the Chinese themselves, the J-35 is more stealthy than the J-20. And based on their revelations, it's at least 10 times bigger than the F-22. That makes them essentially one step away from VLO. J-20 is likely to be 100 times bigger than the F-22.
Click to expand...
As long as our 4th gen aircraft is able to track & shoot J35/j20 at bvr these aircraft are non stealthy and not threat. I do beleive that J35/j20 aren't a big deal for us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
Hydra said:
As long as our 4th gen aircraft is able to track & shoot J35/j20 at bvr these aircraft are non stealthy and not threat. I do beleive that J35/j20 aren't a big deal for us.
Click to expand...

IADS is the main threat, not fighters.

For fighters to become threats to stealth jets, the radars need to be upgraded. Rafale F3R requires the F4 upgrades for example. And MKI needs Virupaksha.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kiduva21 and Rajput Lion
randomradio said:
IADS is the main threat, not fighters.

For fighters to become threats to stealth jets, the radars need to be upgraded. Rafale F3R requires the F4 upgrades for example. And MKI needs Virupaksha.
Click to expand...
The M rafale coming are F4 version, so J35 from Chinese AC can be tackled. J35 of Pakistan, i don't think we should worry about Pakistan.
when comes to J20 of China, i think more than a specific platform China as country is the threat now till we getting Rafale in large numbers , they can inflict much damage to india even without J20.
 
randomradio said:
The Chinese themselves say it's not VLO. I don't know what to say beyond that.

They are actually saying on national TV how they are catching up on stealth tech with America using the J-35.

Both Su-57 and J-20 are designed around a "working stealth" concept with air defense in mind. Meaning, they are survivable only inside their own airspace.

I don't know about the J-20's future, but Su-57's future variants are being designed for VLO.



The J-36 is definitely designed for all-aspect multi-spectral stealth, but calling it ELO would be a stretch. But it definitely exceeds the capabilities of the F-22 and F-35. And that's a threat.

The J-20 is a permissive environment fighter. If it cannot penetrate the IAF's ADS, then it's only a missile threat, and missiles are much more easily defeated by EW.
Click to expand...
J-20 was always designed to compete with F-22 in stealth, supercruise and supermaneuverability. TV channel's won't have true idea of J-20's RCS.

Here is the original paper about J-20's design goals: https://thediplomat.com/2022/02/what-a-19-year-old-study-tells-us-about-chinas-j-20/
 
Hydra said:
The M rafale coming are F4 version, so J35 from Chinese AC can be tackled. J35 of Pakistan, i don't think we should worry about Pakistan.
when comes to J20 of China, i think more than a specific platform China as country is the threat now till we getting Rafale in large numbers , they can inflict much damage to india even without J20.
Click to expand...

Always has been.

I don't expect India and China to fight a serious war anytime soon though.

We outmatch them on the ground, so if they are to pressure us they gotta do that from the air and sea, and they are not ready for that. Plus Xi just put their rocket forces through a massive purge and it's still going on. More than 50% of the PLA generals in the CCP have been purged too.

They need 10 years for India and 15 years for the US. At worst, they can try and take Taiwan after Trump's presidency, but even that's unlikely. This purge will have a multi-year effect. Capable generals are being replaced with loyal, less-experienced ones. They will require some years to build back competence and experience.

So no point in expecting anything beyond their usual shenanigans in the border areas.

It's wonderful how badly the Chinese have miscalculated their strategy.

But once they become stable, things can get really rough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redpanda and Hydra
Rajput Lion said:
J-20 was always designed to compete with F-22 in stealth, supercruise and supermaneuverability. TV channel's won't have true idea of J-20's RCS.

Here is the original paper about J-20's design goals: https://thediplomat.com/2022/02/what-a-19-year-old-study-tells-us-about-chinas-j-20/
Click to expand...

Their current design is well short of the F-22. And you don't need to match the F-22's stealth in order to shoot it down.
Bon Plan said:
Indeed. The best choice for all.
Click to expand...

I guess in another month we will know for sure.

I get the feeling France and Germany will end up with 2 separate airframes or none.
 
Hydra said:

France to finance Rafale F5 alone after UAE co-funding talks collapsed – AeroTime

www.aerotime.aero

Are we looking to invest in a french program? Germans had problem with french earlier , now its UAE. Better we look for collaboration oi n GCAP
Click to expand...
The FCAS cant Fit in INS vikrant. even if it had folding wings its far too long. Unless the navy drastically increases the elevator size on the vikrant repeat and even then it wouldnt have enough space on the hangars for more than 15 or so.

the GCAP looks like a better deal all day right now. The only delay its facing is funding issues with respect to the UK. The FCAS is significantly worse at this point.

Unless the navy funds INS vishal in the 2030s and gets it done before the FCAS arrives its going to be useless for us.

If its air force only then the GCAP is simply a better deal all around with pretty strong partners who are also looking for another industrial partner. India at the end of the day will become a much larger economy by the 2030s. It can fund a pretty large amount of 6th gen fighters for its own.
 
lmaoxd said:
The FCAS cant Fit in INS vikrant. even if it had folding wings its far too long. Unless the navy drastically increases the elevator size on the vikrant repeat and even then it wouldnt have enough space on the hangars for more than 15 or so.

the GCAP looks like a better deal all day right now. The only delay its facing is funding issues with respect to the UK. The FCAS is significantly worse at this point.

Unless the navy funds INS vishal in the 2030s and gets it done before the FCAS arrives its going to be useless for us.

If its air force only then the GCAP is simply a better deal all around with pretty strong partners who are also looking for another industrial partner. India at the end of the day will become a much larger economy by the 2030s. It can fund a pretty large amount of 6th gen fighters for its own.
Click to expand...
GCAP /FCAS, it must not be our sole sixth gen fighter. Develop by our own/Borrow /steal/beg we must build a 120kn/180kn engine and build a heavy class fighter around it to replace MKI.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kiduva21, redpanda, Lolwa and 2 others
Hydra said:
GCAP /FCAS, it must not be our sole sixth gen fighter. Develop by our own/Borrow /steal/beg we must build a 120kn/180kn engine and build a heavy class fighter around it to replace MKI.
Click to expand...

You are right about the Aero Engines. We need a 120 KN Engine and a 160KN+ Engine.

All this 5th GEN/6TH GEN fighter jet talk is nonsense.

A 4.5 Gen jet (twin engine) with own 120 KN Engine with an industrial scale production of 100 Jets/Year will be enough to defend our own territory. We can keep upgrading the radar, avionics and EW suite to match our needs. This is ENOUGH especially for the NAVAL variant.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shekhar Singh and Rajput Lion
Tamilan57 said:
You are right about the Aero Engines. We need a 120 KN Engine and a 160KN+ Engine.
Click to expand...
I think he means 120 KN dry, 180 KN wet thrust engine.

Tamilan57 said:
All this 5th GEN/6TH GEN fighter jet talk is nonsense.
Click to expand...
DRDO is making RAM, RAS, DEW for AMCA, UCAVs.

Tamilan57 said:
A 4.5 Gen jet (twin engine) with own 120 KN Engine with an industrial scale production of 100 Jets/Year will be enough to defend our own territory. We can keep upgrading the radar, avionics and EW suite to match our needs. This is ENOUGH especially for the NAVAL variant.
Click to expand...
> Evolution, organic or inorganic, is natural. So old things become obsolete, get replaced by newer, more efficient things.
> Bcoz of our delays & mistakes we don't have choice other than produce LCA, MWF & import Rafale, etc until we get AMCA.
> Engine depends on role & desired characteristics of jet - payload, range/endurance, stealth. More stealth load & electricity means more powerful engine(s).
> Not just future but past 37-38 years have belonged to stealth, leaders enjoy benefits of R&D, laggers struggle, suffer, complain,justify mistakes & delays.
> Hence even if we give 300 KN engine to 4.5gen jet, it'll be target practice object when 6gen is supposed to defeat 5gen, that's how gen concept is expected to work.
> Navy jets won't get special threat discount.
> 5gen have been expected to be ninja 🥷
6gen is expected to be ghostc 👻:LOL:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kiduva21
Thats a fking ICBM engine you absolute....................................................... We are talking about aeroengines. Pls stay on topic.
Lolwa said:
The north Koreans already have a 2500 kN engine for their hwasong 19 & 20. Keep trying to act cool though. That's what this entire joke of a country does.

Hwasong-20 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
 
  • Haha
Reactions: redpanda and Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom