PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Speedster1]

HAL and private sector are doing their own research here too. Stuff going on DRDO projects may not necessarily be used on the Su-57, so there's no real danger of AMCA tech reaching Russian hands.

MKIzation, if done, will also come via a separate tech tree, the one related to MKI's MLU, not AMCA.

The IAF will likely want maximum commonality between AMCA and a notional Su-57 MKI for predictable maintenance and upgrades. HAL and pvt companies have barely done a fraction of the work DRDO has in this area.

CATS Warrior is still in its early stages of development and LCH is hardly Commanche class. Otoh, DRDRO has already fabricated RAM/RAS structures and coatings (multiple variants) for AMCA. They have been active in this space since the early 2000s, having worked on rcs reduction for the Jaguars among other things.

I don't see how any other Indian company could provide a credible alternative tech tree, aside from licensing DRDO tech and perhaps iterating on it.

 

[randomradio]

The IAF will likely want maximum commonality between AMCA and a notional Su-57 MKI for predictable maintenance and upgrades. HAL and pvt companies have barely done a fraction of the work DRDO has in this area.

CATS Warrior is still in its early stages of development and LCH is hardly Commanche class. Otoh, DRDRO has already fabricated RAM/RAS structures and coatings (multiple variants) for AMCA. They have been active in this space since the early 2000s, having worked on rcs reduction for the Jaguars among other things.

I don't see how any other Indian company could provide a credible alternative tech tree, aside from licensing DRDO tech and perhaps iterating on it.

Due to the drone requirement, alternative work is being carried out in other circles separate from AMCA.

There's no need to maintain commonality between Su-57 and AMCA.

DRDO has to provide core avioncs of course, but they have multiple tech trees there already. It's not like the Russians can learn anything this way.

In any case, the Russians also develop multiple options that we can use. As long as it meets a certain threshold, even if inferior to the original M1, it will be sufficient. In order to keep things affordable across a mere 40 jets, we are more likely to go along with their stuff. If it turns out we plan on using Russian core avionics too, then that just goes to show the requirement is quite urgent, say 2032-35. Nothing to discuss if that's the case.

 

[_Anonymous_]

No country will give us their gold std stuff, not least on a 5G jet that is only just entering service in its own AF. Russia is no exception.

Unlike the Americans, Russia has nothing on the horizon in terms of a next gen jet. So, they'd be cautious about what they sell and to whom.

(Granted they have made exceptions in the past as in the case of the 40N6 interceptor for the S-400 vs the 'E' model export variant. But that's only because they had S-500 in the pipeline)

We'd have to settle for an export model or agree to strict access control/opsec conditions laid down by the Russians.

We'd have to take maximalist positions . The Russians are in a soup. Nobody's buying their stuff irrespective however good the quality which in itself isn't certain.

We ought to squeeze them . Time to return the compliment. We may not get exactly what the VKS is getting but anything as close as possible is always welcome.

In any case, our ADGES/IACCS is not compatible with RuAF std IFF, SDR/TDL, mission planning software, etc. So some mods will naturally be required to the std export model.

Yes & implementing all these changes followed by testing & certification should take us a good 5-7 years . There's always the temptation then to increase the envelope of replacement / upgradation which leads to MKI zation , precisely the kind of rabbit hole the Russians want to lure us into & then the tried & tested old game of bait & switch begins.

 

[lmaoxd]

We'd have to take maximalist positions . The Russians are in a soup. Nobody's buying their stuff irrespective however good the quality which in itself isn't certain.

We ought to squeeze them . Time to return the compliment. We may not get exactly what the VKS is getting but anything as close as possible is always welcome.



Yes & implementing all these changes followed by testing & certification should take us a good 5-7 years . There's then always the temptation to increase the envelope which then leads to MKI zation precisely the kind of rabbit hole the Russians want to lure us into & then the tried & tested old game of bait & switch begins.

I dont think it is possible for India to use the su57 with russian electronics, it would trigger toooo many people, We need Indian avionics and that will take tooo long to certify by which time the AMCA would be ready lol. This is why i dont think India will ever buy the su57 unless in cases of extreme emergency

 

[Speedster1]

Due to the drone requirement, alternative work is being carried out in other circles separate from AMCA.

There's no need to maintain commonality between Su-57 and AMCA.

DRDO has to provide core avioncs of course, but they have multiple tech trees there already. It's not like the Russians can learn anything this way.

In any case, the Russians also develop multiple options that we can use. As long as it meets a certain threshold, even if inferior to the original M1, it will be sufficient. In order to keep things affordable across a mere 40 jets, we are more likely to go along with their stuff. If it turns out we plan on using Russian core avionics too, then that just goes to show the requirement is quite urgent, say 2032-35. Nothing to discuss if that's the case.

A limited buy of 40 Su-57s off the shelf will likely come with some offsets as with the 2014 Rafale deal. Customization will be minimal including comms, iff and integration support for third-party/Indian weapons. No argument there.

But a follow-on MKI program would inevitably require extensive involvement by Russian oems like Ramenskoye for avionics, sensor and nav/attack system integration and certification. The IAF won't risk voiding warranties, etc by flouting mfgr guidelines in this regard.

Adequate safeguards are also important to protect third party tech like French Sigma INS/GPS, et all. The Euros already suspect India could be a conduit for tech leaks to Russia which is trying to circumvent sanctions via third countries.

This could affect ToT for key progs like P-75I, Rafale and create legal complications for us in future.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The replacement of Russian avionics/smart skin etc. in our MKI variant isnt just for better or worse but in order for IAF to be fully dependent on itself and update/upgrade the jet without Russian help.

Su-57MKI jet could be the biggest deal we may ever do with any country. The possibilities and scopes, in terms of what Russia has offered/is offering is absolutely unprecedented. We may even own the IP of our own customized jet with full export rights and even IP of Item-177 with full modification and upgradation rights.

Guys, just hold tight. The news of India going for Su-57 was first revealed by me anywhere in internet in late 2024 itself and now that "off-the-shelf" procurement of around 40 jets is literally indirectly confirmed, soon you guys will know about the "bigger picture", some of which I have just hinted above

 

[randomradio]

A limited buy of 40 Su-57s off the shelf will likely come with some offsets as with the 2014 Rafale deal. Customization will be minimal including comms, iff and integration support for third-party/Indian weapons. No argument there.

We don't know how far they will take it. It's possible we will import MKIzed versions of M1E and a twin-seat UM1E and license produce a whole bunch of MKIzed S-70 drones to support the Su-30 MKI-MLUs and SU-57 MKIs. 80 jets is sufficient for an MKIzation plan.

Imagine 200 MKI and 80 Su-57s supported by 200-300 S-70s. In Russia, they are expected to cost $15M. It will be cheaper than the LCA Mk1A in India.

Or yeah, we just buy 40 standard Su-57 M1Es and call it a day. But this no longer makes sense to me, as of 2024, even if we buy 40 or 80 drones to support it. Point being, I don't see the point of buying the Su-57 without drones or it acting as a hedge for AMCA, which makes MKIzation important.

Even 80 jets with 100 strike drones and 100 AS drones can replace a fighter fleet of 150+ jets.

But a follow-on MKI program would inevitably require extensive involvement by Russian oems like Ramenskoye for avionics, sensor and nav/attack system integration and certification. The IAF won't risk voiding warranties, etc by flouting mfgr guidelines in this regard.

MKIzation removes Russian avionics, which is the point. Our own radar, navigation, and EW suite along with mission computer, radio, data links etc. No different from MKI-MLU. So Virupaksha, Yodha, Anidra etc.

Adequate safeguards are also important to protect third party tech like French Sigma INS/GPS, et all. The Euros already suspect India could be a conduit for tech leaks to Russia which is trying to circumvent sanctions via third countries.

This could affect ToT for key progs like P-75I, Rafale and create legal complications for us in future.

They already trust us to do that. Especially the French.

Btw, MOD is getting rid of offsets. Makes deals too expensive.

 

[Speedster1]

MKIzation removes Russian avionics, which is the point. Our own radar, navigation, and EW suite along with mission computer, radio, data links etc. No different from MKI-MLU. So Virupaksha, Yodha, Anidra etc.

To be clear, Ramenskoye DB was the Russian systems integration lead on the MKI prog. For the Su-57, they make the core avionics suite including the mission computer. I'd imagine Indian Su-57s will add a 2nd MC to allow for independent weapons integration, just like MKI.

The initial integration work will likely take place at Ramenskoye DBs facilities in Russia. So ofcourse the Russians will have access to our systems.

 

[Optimist]

Sounds like you are at the very least uncertain about how credible your *work* will be.

Get the link and post it so I can help you understand, This isn't the first person to Use basic shaping program Air power Australia was one of the first, Anyway this SU-57 thread has the same meme that was going around

Establishing a secure connection ...

 

[randomradio]

To be clear, Ramenskoye DB was the Russian systems integration lead on the MKI prog. For the Su-57, they make the core avionics suite including the mission computer. I'd imagine Indian Su-57s will add a 2nd MC to allow for independent weapons integration, just like MKI.

The initial integration work will likely take place at Ramenskoye DBs facilities in Russia. So ofcourse the Russians will have access to our systems.

The Russians don't have access to non-Russian avionics on MKI either. Those were in fact installed in India post delivery from Russia.

That 2nd MC thing was done by the Americans for the Israeli F-35s, the same is not necessary for the Felon due to its open architecture. We can get our own independent MC. That's the point of the export model. And MKIzed electronics will be installed in India.

 

[Rajput Lion]

To be clear, Ramenskoye DB was the Russian systems integration lead on the MKI prog. For the Su-57, they make the core avionics suite including the mission computer. I'd imagine Indian Su-57s will add a 2nd MC to allow for independent weapons integration, just like MKI.

The initial integration work will likely take place at Ramenskoye DBs facilities in Russia. So ofcourse the Russians will have access to our systems.

Su-57MKI will have more Indian stuff than what MKI had right from the beginning. We have learned our lessons from the MKI programme and won't repeat the same mistakes we did this time around.

And, Russians won't have access to our classified systems like Radar, EW etc. We have ways around that

 

[Hydra]

No call yet on SU57 or US F35.
Defense secretary.

 

[Rajput Lion]

No call yet on SU57 or US F35.
Defense secretary.

No F-35 for us. Period. It's going to be Su-57. Mark it.

 

[Hydra]

No F-35 for us. Period. It's going to be Su-57. Mark it.

@Rajput Lion @randomradio india still sticking to AMCA. No call yet on SU57/F35.

 

[Speedster1]

The Russians don't have access to non-Russian avionics on MKI either. Those were in fact installed in India post delivery from Russia.

MKI was the first export Flanker variant with French/Israeli avionics. (China's MKK had an all-Russian cockpit)

I'm specifically referring to MFD55 and MFD66 cockpit displays and Sigma 95 INS/GPS here which eventually found their way to MKM, MKA variants - including the Su-30SM for the RuAF.

(The latest Su-30SM2 model replaces these very avionics with Russian equivalents because of intl sanctions over the Ukraine situation.)

Care to explain how this could've happened without Russian Oems having had direct access?

That 2nd MC thing was done by the Americans for the Israeli F-35s, the same is not necessary for the Felon due to its open architecture

In all likelihood, the 114 Rafale we're getting will also have a 2nd MC (despite having IMA avionics) to bypass the need for source code which the French have refused to share.

I'd be surprised if the Russians oblige us with anything more than API level access on Su-57. Again, any physical modifications to the core avionics will require the direct involvement of Russian firms.

 

[babablacksheep]

And

Get the link and post it so I can help you understand, This isn't the first person to Use basic shaping program Air power Australia was one of the first, Anyway this SU-57 thread has the same meme that was going around

Establishing a secure connection ...

View attachment 49996

And where is the part that provides more more CREDIBLE, Info that F18 is near SU57 level of rcs clean? Or that su57's stealth is so bad that its not a stealth jet?

Most of the commentators on that site are *assuming* using mostly *INTERNET photos* & you ironically are using the meme as some kind of gotcha, completely ignorant.

I also don't see an RCS simulation in the forum link you provided, just *SPECULATION FROM INTERNET PHOTOS*.
Many commentators on that site themselves, are pointing it out.

This isn't the first person to Use basic shaping program Air power Australia was one of the first, Anyway this SU-57 thread has the same meme that was going around

So?

Get the link and post it so I can help you understand,

You're not capable.

 

[babablacksheep]

And

And where is the part that provides more more CREDIBLE, Info that F18 is near SU57 level of rcs clean? Or that su57's stealth is so bad that its not a stealth jet?

Most of the commentators on that site are *assuming* using mostly *INTERNET photos* & you ironically are using the meme as some kind of gotcha, completely ignorant.

I also don't see an RCS simulation in the forum link you provided, just *SPECULATION FROM INTERNET PHOTOS*.
Many commentators on that site themselves, are pointing it out.






So?




You're not capable.

& the 0.1 to 1.0 m2. of su57 Radar Cross-Section (RCS) claim originates from Russian Patent RU2502643 C2, filed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau.

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

& in this rcs simulation.



In -60• to +60• , frontal arc.

End result of median rcs of 0.39m2 , and average rcs is 0.79m2.



In -20 to +20, frontal arc.

Median is 0.48m2, avg is 1.02m2

(For *Geometric stealth*)





Which very well aligns with the patent sukhoi filed.

( Unless you beleive that 0.1-1m2 rcs range of su57 is of complete package Geometric+ RAS+ram+micro treatments, in which case you can remain in your delusion)

 

[calutronking]

All these calculations are great, but what capability will two squadrons of Su-57 add to the IAF. Is this level of stealth sufficient to face off against J-20's or J-35's in A2A BVR engagements? Is that number of aircraft sufficient to conduct offensive strike against the Chinese before being blasted out of the sky by Chinese S-400's?

How long will 40 aircraft be able to conduct operations before needing full service? Second thing to be considered is if China has >200 J-20's deployed across the norther border will such a small number of Su-57's even make a difference?

I don't see them being operationally useful for India against the Chinese in any mission set other than the copium and hopium mission sets. Against the Pakistani's, maybe some limited defensive counter air operations because offensive strike is no almost entirely based on munitions with ranges exceeding 500 km, so the Su-57 is pointless.

 

[babablacksheep]

All these calculations are great, but what capability will two squadrons of Su-57 add to the IAF

A slight meaningful edge, Chinese high value assest will become relatively more vunrable, along with iaf getting the time to train, get familiar with, develop tactics for optimal usage of stealth jets in Indian context

Were not matching china at all though.

Is this level of stealth sufficient to face off against J-20's or J-35's in A2A BVR engagements?

Kind of, i guess.

Though stealth jets are not solely meant to face off against other stealth jets.

If we did buy 2 squads of su57, than avoiding confrontation with j20,j35 most of the time will be better, given only 2 squadrons worth no. Unless we have to protect a high value ground asset where risking su57 is worth it to defend.

Is that number of aircraft sufficient to conduct offensive strike against the Chinese before being blasted out of the sky by Chinese S-400's?

Chinese S-400 will be one of the prime targets for it.

How long will 40 aircraft be able to conduct operations before needing full service? Second thing to be considered is if China has >200 J-20's deployed across the norther border will such a small number of Su-57's even make a difference?

2 squads,Will make a slight/small meaningful difference in overall broader war.

 

[Speedster1]

And, Russians won't have access to our classified systems like Radar, EW etc. We have ways around that

The radar and ew are tightly integrated on any modern combat ac, more so on a 5G jet.

If we want oem certification and support, we'd have to give the Russians EMI/EMC data for these ISE systems for compatibility testing, etc.

There is just no way around that, imo. We'd have to rely on Russian goodwill to respect our IP.