HAL LUH / RSH Helicopter: News and Discussions

TASL might be a contender now with the H125 offer.

But I feel that even with accelerated progress, the deal might be signed by 2027 end. Best case scenario 2030 sees delivery start.

Is the issue with LUH so bad that we are not expecting mass production before it?
Afaik the only hold up was the lack of an auto pilot. An interim solution was sourced from Safran while an indigenous system is in dev/undergoing trials. Can't imagine the reason behind this RfI.

I think Airbus has lined up all its ducks in a row for this very moment. The commercial market segment pales in comparison to the military one.

Looks like the Alouette/Chetak will be replaced by another French bird after all.
 
TASL might be a contender now with the H125 offer.

But I feel that even with accelerated progress, the deal might be signed by 2027 end. Best case scenario 2030 sees delivery start.

Is the issue with LUH so bad that we are not expecting mass production before it?

Afaik the only hold up was the lack of an auto pilot. An interim solution was sourced from Safran while an indigenous system is in dev/undergoing trials. Can't imagine the reason behind this RfI.

I think Airbus has lined up all its ducks in a row for this very moment. The commercial market segment pales in comparison to the military one.

Looks like the Alouette/Chetak will be replaced by another French bird after all.
There seems to be issues with the LUH going by reports coming out in the past few months. How genuine is it , what's being done to remedy it if there's something being done at all & how long will it take to remedy it is anyone's guess.

I believe there's a concerted effort to undermine HAL by a lobby in our security establishment. It's quite clear from the way things are unfolding , else how on earth can we permit Foreign OEMs to bring in a FAL of a 5 decade old design & pitch it in direct competition to Indian OEMs as we're likely to see in the LUH tender going ahead.

Then there's the commercial aviation market for hptrs which's virtually untapped by HAL even with the ALH what to speak of the LUH which is still in development. GoI doesn't realise that by permitting a Foreign OEM to bring in a product like the H-125 to a virgin market like India giving it first movers advantage over the LUH is virtually shooting HAL in the back more so since they've shackled HAL . I can't imagine China ever commiting a monumental blunder like this.

HAL has not done itself any favours either by refusing to reform the way it conducts its operations . Then again being a DPSU with how much freedom HAL operates without interference from MoD is open to speculation.

I've argued many a time in the past that HAL as it is structured today is a dinosaur & will go extinct in some time. The blame will solely lie on the MoD & the PMO for not reforming HAL when it was time to do so. We still haven't run out of time . However I don't see any moves whatsoever by the GoI / MoD to reform HAL.

Result - we have issues like LUH which gives credence to the accusations Dassault Aviation leveled against HAL way back in 2012 . 13 years later the culture remains much the same .

If this logjam isn't broken & trust between the armed forces & HAL isn't restored ASAP with respect to the LUH project then we're looking at the prospect of HAL losing out on this tender & while there may be many here who'd cheer & welcome such an outcome it signifies the demise of indigenous efforts.
 
Gx4NH7WWEAAcFVi


 
There seems to be issues with the LUH going by reports coming out in the past few months. How genuine is it , what's being done to remedy it if there's something being done at all & how long will it take to remedy it is anyone's guess.

I believe there's a concerted effort to undermine HAL by a lobby in our security establishment. It's quite clear from the way things are unfolding , else how on earth can we permit Foreign OEMs to bring in a FAL of a 5 decade old design & pitch it in direct competition to Indian OEMs as we're likely to see in the LUH tender going ahead.

Then there's the commercial aviation market for hptrs which's virtually untapped by HAL even with the ALH what to speak of the LUH which is still in development. GoI doesn't realise that by permitting a Foreign OEM to bring in a product like the H-125 to a virgin market like India giving it first movers advantage over the LUH is virtually shooting HAL in the back more so since they've shackled HAL . I can't imagine China ever commiting a monumental blunder like this.

HAL has not done itself any favours either by refusing to reform the way it conducts its operations . Then again being a DPSU with how much freedom HAL operates without interference from MoD is open to speculation.

I've argued many a time in the past that HAL as it is structured today is a dinosaur & will go extinct in some time. The blame will solely lie on the MoD & the PMO for not reforming HAL when it was time to do so. We still haven't run out of time . However I don't see any moves whatsoever by the GoI / MoD to reform HAL.

Result - we have issues like LUH which gives credence to the accusations Dassault Aviation leveled against HAL way back in 2012 . 13 years later the culture remains much the same .

If this logjam isn't broken & trust between the armed forces & HAL isn't restored ASAP with respect to the LUH project then we're looking at the prospect of HAL losing out on this tender & while there may be many here who'd cheer & welcome such an outcome it signifies the demise of indigenous efforts.

The Army is already leasing civilian helos for resupplying forward posts so the situation is dire. HALs track record isn't very reassuring either. But both the LUH airframe and engine are derived from the in-service ALH (which the Army continues to buy more of) so the whole issue of cabin vibration is a bit baffling.

Given the problems with ALHs rotor, the LUH rotor went through a CDR back in 2014 iirc and apparently passed (ostensibly with the involvement of the user via Cemilac) Now that the machine is flying, we have all sorts of problems cropping up.

Shouldn't this has been rectified a lot earlier as part of a joint effort?

It is critical from the safety pov though. The Chetak experience has been sobering. Why they aren't working with a foriegn consultant to iron out issues is beyond me.

China has built hundreds of helos based on French designs, from the 3t Fennec and Dauphin to the 10t+ Super Frelon. Airbus/Eurocopter even co-developed helos like EC120 Colibri and the latest EC175 with Chinese. Till date China doesn't have an original helo design. (Even the Z-10 is reportedly based on a Kamov design).

The French cleverly sold the Dauphin to both the US (Coast Guard as the Dolphin) and China (Z-9) back in the day. Now that they are themselves moving to the new gen H160, they have nothing to lose selling those older machines in India.
 
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So, it's parallel procurement of LCH and RSH. It was the original plan from the Antony times. Total requirement is 400; split it into 200 LUH and 200 foreign designs.
 
The LUH reportedly has a service ceiling of ~ 6500 mtrs with 1 TS delivering a power output of ~ 1000 KW as compared to the H-125 which has a service ceiling of ~ 4300 mtrs with 1 TS delivering a power output of ~ 630 KW & then there's the Ka-226 which has a service ceiling of ~ 6200 mtrs with 2 nos TS delivering a power output of ~ 430 KW each except the TS powering the Ka-226 are of SAFRAN make .

With the sanctions in place on Russia , Ka-226 is a non starter & H-125 wouldn't be able to achieve the desired service ceiling without major modifications assuming Airbus is interested in it which means they'd likely offer something else .

I see another prolonged circus in the offing.

Alhamdulillah !
 
The LUH reportedly has a service ceiling of ~ 6500 mtrs with 1 TS delivering a power output of ~ 1000 KW as compared to the H-125 which has a service ceiling of ~ 4300 mtrs with 1 TS delivering a power output of ~ 630 KW & then there's the Ka-226 which has a service ceiling of ~ 6200 mtrs with 2 nos TS delivering a power output of ~ 430 KW each except the TS powering the Ka-226 are of SAFRAN make .

With the sanctions in place on Russia , Ka-226 is a non starter & H-125 wouldn't be able to achieve the desired service ceiling without major modifications assuming Airbus is interested in it which means they'd likely offer something else .

I see another prolonged circus in the offing.

Alhamdulillah !
HAL might as well offer them a stripped down version of the ALH in the meantime. Looks like LUH needs more time to sort its issues out.
 
HAL might as well offer them a stripped down version of the ALH in the meantime. Looks like LUH needs more time to sort its issues out.
ALH has an AUW of > 5 tons although it has a service ceiling of ~ 6000 mtrs & is equipped with 2 nos TS. The requirement as understood by the article above is for a 3 ton hptr.

It has to be the LUH though I suspect the armed forces bifurcating the requirements into two is coz they don't want to award the entire requirement to HAL but want another player in .

I suspect this also has the GoI's blessings as it dovetails into the GoI's requirement of creating another aerospace co.

So whichever way you dice it this order will see fulfillment thru 2 different parties . The only question is with Ka-226 out of the way & H-125 not in compliance with the service ceiling which other hptr qualifies ?

I suspect it'd be the TASL- Airbus JV with some hptr from the inventory of Airbus with TASL being the local screw driver provider aka service provider , a role HAL used to fulfill not very long ago. In any case TASL is the Pvt Sector equivalent of HAL.

I've already written about it before but take the opportunity to reiterate my stance . If TASL at the end of 10 years from now doesn't come up with an equivalent indigenous platform for H-125 as we expect it to do , don't be surprised in the least .

Nor should you be surprised if it doesn't derive any learnings from the JV in ways like the Chinese local business did after collaboration with foreign OEMs in any sector.

That's coz of its DNA. At its heart the TATA conglomerate is a vast bureaucracy masquerading as a business enterprise. No doubt there may be an exception here or there given it's a 200 company odd group with an equally old lineage but those exceptions merely prove the rule.
 
There seems to be issues with the LUH going by reports coming out in the past few months. How genuine is it , what's being done to remedy it if there's something being done at all & how long will it take to remedy it is anyone's guess.

I believe there's a concerted effort to undermine HAL by a lobby in our security establishment. It's quite clear from the way things are unfolding , else how on earth can we permit Foreign OEMs to bring in a FAL of a 5 decade old design & pitch it in direct competition to Indian OEMs as we're likely to see in the LUH tender going ahead.

Then there's the commercial aviation market for hptrs which's virtually untapped by HAL even with the ALH what to speak of the LUH which is still in development. GoI doesn't realise that by permitting a Foreign OEM to bring in a product like the H-125 to a virgin market like India giving it first movers advantage over the LUH is virtually shooting HAL in the back more so since they've shackled HAL . I can't imagine China ever commiting a monumental blunder like this.

HAL has not done itself any favours either by refusing to reform the way it conducts its operations . Then again being a DPSU with how much freedom HAL operates without interference from MoD is open to speculation.

I've argued many a time in the past that HAL as it is structured today is a dinosaur & will go extinct in some time. The blame will solely lie on the MoD & the PMO for not reforming HAL when it was time to do so. We still haven't run out of time . However I don't see any moves whatsoever by the GoI / MoD to reform HAL.

Result - we have issues like LUH which gives credence to the accusations Dassault Aviation leveled against HAL way back in 2012 . 13 years later the culture remains much the same .

If this logjam isn't broken & trust between the armed forces & HAL isn't restored ASAP with respect to the LUH project then we're looking at the prospect of HAL losing out on this tender & while there may be many here who'd cheer & welcome such an outcome it signifies the demise of indigenous efforts.
I noticed a small detail in PMs speech in parliament on OP sindoor debate.

He said something along the lines that a culture of protest, union etc was allowed to ferment inside DPSUs, a velied dig at HALs work style. That hampered innovation.

Even during first term, when govt tried to bring reforms in HAL, they resisted and found an ally in Congress for their dharna. Apparently it was attack on jobs of hal babus.

Since then, govt has pushed for structural reforms inside DRDO too. Again met with opposition and resistance from DRDO officials. Internal politics > work n innovation.

Since then, I believe govt has likely decided to not bet on a broken drum/ dinousar like HAL and putting hope that it will reform a org deeply integrated with vested interests.

Instead, it's might actually further their irrelevance by developing an aerospace- aviation industry that is not reliant on HAL and is better.

It's like subtle privatisation of the industry which gobbles up HAL in future. I won't be surprised if govt is knowingly allowing Anti-HAL lobby to do it's thing resulting in giving them political space for their movement away from HAL.
It doesn't mean they won't keep HAL afloat for a while. But bring in serious competition. If HAL wanna stay relevant , they need to up their game which they have spectacularly failed at. It's not about Tejas or delays.. it's normal for delays to be there and factors outside there control have much effects on them. But it's the culture which so far, I haven't seen improving barring few things outsourced to private firms.
Then there's the facade of HAL platforms bring indigenous when many of its critical systems are developed by foreign OEMs and only either screwdivered and certified in India. Eg: Flight control system of LUH

Infact, in whole op sindoor and the talks about Indian defense industry.. if there is one DPSU which failed to generate positive momentum is HAL.
While other private n public players saw increase in spotlight.. HAL seems to have even opened further space for private industry.

Even when AMCA details came out for prototype development... Instead of showing confidence by saying they are ready for competition.. their officials worked overtime to deny competition on various grounds.

And I am not commenting on what the imported platform might be or if they will be imported ones only.. they too might be built with JV with indian private sector.. giving the private industry, the hand holding it needs since they are just beginning. That doesn't include nig firms only but MSMEs that will get opportunity too. It's not limited to high end systems but even small things but getting experience in quality Assurance aspect for military grade products.

Many of us hoped that HAL will reform itself but it seems to bet on prevailing with its existing structure and support from certain political factions.
 
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Finally some good news from HAL.
Between LUH and UHM, any gearbox/rotor issues should be sorted out for good. UHM comes out next in 2026 iirc.

Recent reports say the wheeled Dhruv variant is undergoing extensive testing at sea.

 
Can anyone explain whether the Hal LUH is a variation of already existing Indian helicopters like Dhruv, Rudra etc or is it a completely new design or maybe a licensed copy of a foreign helicopter?