India eyes 6th generation FCAS, looks at tying up with France for possible collaboration

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

you can reuse the same core for the AMCA and the FCAS engines. thats like 70% of the cost done right there. There is a reason why the french are keen to do the engine for us. Its cause they will save a lot of time and money for the core.

The core comprises HPC, combustor, HPT.
AMCA needs better than F414 class engine. F414 has been upgraded to EPE version for F-18 SH Blk-3. Hence JV is aiming for better engine.

But 6gen needs at least F119 upto F135 class engine, if 2 engine jet & more than F135 class if 1 engine.

So in my understanding, for fighter engines, different cores needed for different classes.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

No one's gonna give it to us on a plate. At most we might get near 5th gen engine. Then it depends on our agencies to learn from that and develop further on it.

No JV is gonna give us state of the art technology. It's old technology meant for nascent industry to establish the foundation quicker. We will still need to learn and build things of our own.

Our industialists & tycoons are habituated for quick setup & harvesting profit oriented, rather than R&D.

I hear that 80% ToT of F414 will be given. Perhaps we can make a bigger engine from that learning.
Beyond that perhaps ISRO can help with high temp & pessure components.

But IMO, to build a prototype airframe 1st, we should try to look into engine options w/o ToT.
Another option can be Russian Isdeliye 177 engine with 108/157 KN thrust, or AL-41F1 (Isdeliye-117) with 88/147 KN thrust.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Our industialists & tycoons are habituated for quick setup & harvesting profit oriented, rather than R&D.

I hear that 80% ToT of F414 will be given. Perhaps we can make a bigger engine from that learning.
Beyond that perhaps ISRO can help with high temp & pessure components.

But IMO, to build a prototype airframe 1st, we should try to look into engine options w/o ToT.
Another option can be Russian Isdeliye 177 engine with 108/157 KN thrust, or AL-41F1 (Isdeliye-117) with 88/147 KN thrust.

If they do not course correct, than it's their loss.
As Indian economy and clout grows, the kirana industrialist are going to get into crosshairs of geo-politics too.
We are shedding the license raj era yoy. Market is getting opened, domestic policies are getting liberalised, startups are opening, banking health is good. They no longer can count on zero competition+ Family grace for sole licensing. Foreign companies will lap up the startups and with it the labor & market if kirana industrialist keep living in past.

Just look at the mind boggling number of FTAs and initiatives to fund startups and MSMEs. All of this will start showing its impact in 10 years, not 1 year. And it's not limited to defense only.
So, it's upto them, if they wanna keep up with times or shade away. My bet is on them being able to keep up.

Hopefully you got my point and realise how fruitless and self-damaging the roadmap you talked about will be. It's not any different than our situation right now. We need improvement, not stagnation.

 

[lmaoxd]

The core comprises HPC, combustor, HPT.
AMCA needs better than F414 class engine. F414 has been upgraded to EPE version for F-18 SH Blk-3. Hence JV is aiming for better engine.

But 6gen needs at least F119 upto F135 class engine, if 2 engine jet & more than F135 class if 1 engine.

So in my understanding, for fighter engines, different cores needed for different classes.

the core for the JV engine is supposed to be 2100-2300K. this is a high end 5th gen class core which is what even the USAF is using for its 6th gen engines.

from my understanding(in simpler terms) a 6th gen engine uses a high end 5th gen class core while adding VCE and all the other stuff.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

If they do not course correct, than it's their loss.
As Indian economy and clout grows, the kirana industrialist are going to get into crosshairs of geo-politics too.
We are shedding the license raj era yoy. Market is getting opened, domestic policies are getting liberalised, startups are opening, banking health is good. They no longer can count on zero competition+ Family grace for sole licensing. Foreign companies will lap up the startups and with it the labor & market if kirana industrialist keep living in past.

Just look at the mind boggling number of FTAs and initiatives to fund startups and MSMEs. All of this will start showing its impact in 10 years, not 1 year. And it's not limited to defense only.
So, it's upto them, if they wanna keep up with times or shade away. My bet is on them being able to keep up.

Hopefully you got my point and realise how fruitless and self-damaging the roadmap you talked about will be. It's not any different than our situation right now. We need improvement, not stagnation.

I'm not telling to import engines for entire fleet, but just the few TDs.
We need PPP, JV & then self reliance.
But we should not delay TD till we get engine ToT or JV engine, that's 5-10 years delay.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

the core for the JV engine is supposed to be 2100-2300K. this is a high end 5th gen class core which is what even the USAF is using for its 6th gen engines.

from my understanding(in simpler terms) a 6th gen engine uses a high end 5th gen class core while adding VCE and all the other stuff.

As per public data i've collected on engines, the F135 engine has highest TET of 2100-2300 K.
F119 engine quoted with 1922 K, Al-41F1 at 1745 K.
Provided that high temp materials are available, still TET depends on many factors like OPR, BPR, fuel type, fuel-air mix ratio, combustor design, etc.

Conceptually it is correct that 5gen engine + higher BPR channel = VCE.
Although F414 was derived with F404 core, but saying that same core can be used for AMCA & FCAS doesn't match their profiles of a medium class 4gen engine Vs heavy class 6gen engine.
We need to check if Safarn really needs existing foreign engine & if USA will allow France to modify American engines.

 

[Subgradewalker]

I'm not telling to import engines for entire fleet, but just the few TDs.
We need PPP, JV & then self reliance.
But we should not delay TD till we get engine ToT or JV engine, that's 5-10 years delay.

That's what F-414 was supposed to be. Adding another engine will make it more messy only.
As far as I know, AMCA-MKI will be built around said engines. It's designing is approached that way. That includes upcoming TD too.

I know there is a lot of hype around engine "co-development" with French but the condition that the engine should be built to fit current Airframes will not be that easy.
Let's assume they are unable to adhere to the shape and size strictly.. even if the end product becomes better than what DRDO hoped for.. that would essentially mean that AMCA-MKII might as well be very different Aircraft.

If they are successful in developing engine that fits current airframe perfectly.. than the point is moot. AMCA will progress in iteration while next engine R&D may start for future.

But that's just it. Those are your two options. ( Excluding Kaveri )
177s,404,414 etc.. they are fantasies. More options you fiddle with, more confused project will be and more delays without decline in dependency.
I See many people fanning over Su-57, 177s, Rafale etc.. but neither of them are important. They are a side thing, IAF,MOD wants bandages, they will buy.

We can either be fanboy about bandages or make the real solution our only priority.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

That's what F-414 was supposed to be. Adding another engine will make it more messy only.
As far as I know, AMCA-MKI will be built around said engines. It's designing is approached that way. That includes upcoming TD too.

I know there is a lot of hype around engine "co-development" with French but the condition that the engine should be built to fit current Airframes will not be that easy.
Let's assume they are unable to adhere to the shape and size strictly.. even if the end product becomes better than what DRDO hoped for.. that would essentially mean that AMCA-MKII might as well be very different Aircraft.

If they are successful in developing engine that fits current airframe perfectly.. than the point is moot. AMCA will progress in iteration while next engine R&D may start for future.

But that's just it. Those are your two options. ( Excluding Kaveri )
177s,404,414 etc.. they are fantasies. More options you fiddle with, more confused project will be and more delays without decline in dependency.
I See many people fanning over Su-57, 177s, Rafale etc.. but neither of them are important. They are a side thing, IAF,MOD wants bandages, they will buy.

We can either be fanboy about bandages or make the real solution our only priority.

F414 is 4gen medium class engine. while 6gen will be heavy class engine.
A 6gen jet with 2x F135 class engines is equivalent to 4x F414 engines.

Every type of Engineering appears messy, like a human body's bloddy operation in hospital.
So we should leave the technical work to the techies for which they have trained & getting salary.

IDK the exact approach of new jet & engine together but here is an approximation -
From small engines of business jets to biggest like GE-9X, the makers have vast experience.
1st the category/segement of a jet is chosen.
Then its role, weight, speed, load, range, etc are refined.
Then total dry/wet thrust needed.
Every new model of engine needs confidence, trial & error method.
Then engine maker tell how big & powerful engine they can make adjusting the parameters & # of engines.
The jet size can be adjusted as well.

I'll show these steps in my AHCA thread as example.
Bottomline - ideally we need 200-250 KN class engine for 6gen, better than F135. When we aim 100% then we score 90%.

China, Russia, Europe, America making multiple engines.
India better do something.

 

[Optimist]

maybe it will turn out better for India, I have previously said, France does not have partners, it has customers

Former Airbus CEO Enders: Collaboration with France on the FCAS program was a strategic mistake - Agenzia Nova

Former Airbus CEO Enders: Collaboration with France on the FCAS program was a strategic mistake. Read Agenzia Nova.

www.agenzianova.com

 

[Subgradewalker]

F414 is 4gen medium class engine. while 6gen will be heavy class engine.
A 6gen jet with 2x F135 class engines is equivalent to 4x F414 engines.

Every type of Engineering appears messy, like a human body's bloddy operation in hospital.
So we should leave the technical work to the techies for which they have trained & getting salary.

IDK the exact approach of new jet & engine together but here is an approximation -
From small engines of business jets to biggest like GE-9X, the makers have vast experience.
1st the category/segement of a jet is chosen.
Then its role, weight, speed, load, range, etc are refined.
Then total dry/wet thrust needed.
Every new model of engine needs confidence, trial & error method.
Then engine maker tell how big & powerful engine they can make adjusting the parameters & # of engines.
The jet size can be adjusted as well.

I'll show these steps in my AHCA thread as example.
Bottomline - ideally we need 200-250 KN class engine for 6gen, better than F135. When we aim 100% then we score 90%.

China, Russia, Europe, America making multiple engines.
India better do something.

1. We don't have a working 4th Gen engine. We lack the core technology to successfully build onez let alone better. What exactly gave you confidence to suggest an attempt at 6th gen 200+ thrust engine is beyond me.

2. It's not the individual engine that's messy. It's the message created if you look at too many options for a single project. And how come you jumped to 200+ engine? We are you along about flying out Tejas and AMCA for now. Let's build an indigenous 404 equivalent, then one for AMCA requirement. All others are just liability

3. Making multiple engines comes after you've built one atleast. And engine maker don't build engines by adjusting the parameters.. you first need the underlying science to advance for more thrust. That's fuel, metallurgy, design.. everything. Engines for business jet and a fighter aircraft are worlds apart.

4. The design of LCA is already fixed. You can't change it, hence need for unprecedented situation of building an engine around airframe. Similarly for AMCA prototypes. That's why I mentioned that depending on the final product of our venture to build an engine.. AMCA MKII's fate will be decided.


Yes. India better do something. And that something is not 177,404,M88. It's Kaveri 2.0, 3.0 and so on. .

 

[babablacksheep]

1. We don't have a working 4th Gen engine. We lack the core technology to successfully build onez let alone better. What exactly gave you confidence to suggest an attempt at 6th gen 200+ thrust engine is beyond me.

2. It's not the individual engine that's messy. It's the message created if you look at too many options for a single project. And how come you jumped to 200+ engine? We are you along about flying out Tejas and AMCA for now. Let's build an indigenous 404 equivalent, then one for AMCA requirement. All others are just liability

3. Making multiple engines comes after you've built one atleast. And engine maker don't build engines by adjusting the parameters.. you first need the underlying science to advance for more thrust. That's fuel, metallurgy, design.. everything. Engines for business jet and a fighter aircraft are worlds apart.

4. The design of LCA is already fixed. You can't change it, hence need for unprecedented situation of building an engine around airframe. Similarly for AMCA prototypes. That's why I mentioned that depending on the final product of our venture to build an engine.. AMCA MKII's fate will be decided.


Yes. India better do something. And that something is not 177,404,M88. It's Kaveri 2.0, 3.0 and so on. .

We are lacking in many areas when it comes to jet engine development, but core tech for 4th gen we do have that.



Along with that.

The 6th VCE engines competing for F47 are Xa102 & Xa103
both engines are designed for the 35,000 to 40,000 lbf (156–178 kN) thrust class with afterburner.
( F35's , F135 engine produces 191kn max thrust)

The 200+ kn max thrust XA100 is not being considered for F47( U.S. 6th gen)
( Being offered as an upgrade over F135 for f35)

And that's when F47 is being designed to fight in the Pacific, need to cover vast distances over ocean.

We don't have range requirements for our future jet to this extent.

200+kn need for *6th gen* is just another uninformed/misinformed assumption.

Small chances that Some future 6th gen may have that, but its not a defining need in a sense, that all 6th gen need it.

 

[lmaoxd]

Along with that.

The 6th VCE engines competing for F47 are Xa102 & Xa103
both engines are designed for the 35,000 to 40,000 lbf (156–178 kN) thrust class with afterburner.
( F35's , F135 engine produces 191kn max thrust)

The 200+ kn max thrust XA100 is not being considered for F47( U.S. 6th gen)
( Being offered as an upgrade over F135 for f35)

And that's when F47 is being designed to fight in the Pacific, need to cover vast distances over ocean.

We don't have range requirements for our future jet to this extent.

200+kn need for *6th gen* is just another uninformed/misinformed assumption.

Small chances that Some future 6th gen may have that, but its not a defining need in a sense, that all 6th gen need it.

156KN per engine or hell even 140KN is more than enough if we consider that 5+ engines have high Non afterburning thrust.
If the AMCA uses a 140KN engine and the AMCA mk2 increases from 25MTOW to 27MTOW then the TWR is still above 1 with just the engines alone even at MTOW. And this is not normal combat load, that would be around 20 tonnes including fuel and internal weapons. TWR at that level is more than enough lol, the engines just need to be effecient.

 

[babablacksheep]

156KN per engine or hell even 140KN is more than enough if we consider that 5+ engines have high Non afterburning thrust.
If the AMCA uses a 140KN engine and the AMCA mk2 increases from 25MTOW to 27MTOW then the TWR is still above 1 with just the engines alone even at MTOW. And this is not normal combat load, that would be around 20 tonnes including fuel and internal weapons. TWR at that level is more than enough lol, the engines just need to be effecient.

Current amca is 27 tons mtow.
With 120kn afterburner thrust per engine.
Should be around 80kn dry thrust per engine.
Should be sufficient to super-cruise at 20-22 tons combat configuration.

Amca's JV engine is intended to in range of 120-140kn .

So, for a heavier 6th gen aircraft with ~34-35 ton mtow( big enough for our needs), 27-28tons general combat configuration.
100-105kn dry and 140kn wet, should also be enough to super-cruise, sustained at mach 1.2+


( assuming airfame is designed for super-cruise, with nice area ruling).

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

1. We don't have a working 4th Gen engine. We lack the core technology to successfully build onez let alone better. What exactly gave you confidence to suggest an attempt at 6th gen 200+ thrust engine is beyond me.

2. It's not the individual engine that's messy. It's the message created if you look at too many options for a single project. And how come you jumped to 200+ engine? We are you along about flying out Tejas and AMCA for now. Let's build an indigenous 404 equivalent, then one for AMCA requirement. All others are just liability

3. Making multiple engines comes after you've built one atleast. And engine maker don't build engines by adjusting the parameters.. you first need the underlying science to advance for more thrust. That's fuel, metallurgy, design.. everything. Engines for business jet and a fighter aircraft are worlds apart.

4. The design of LCA is already fixed. You can't change it, hence need for unprecedented situation of building an engine around airframe. Similarly for AMCA prototypes. That's why I mentioned that depending on the final product of our venture to build an engine.. AMCA MKII's fate will be decided.


Yes. India better do something. And that something is not 177,404,M88. It's Kaveri 2.0, 3.0 and so on. .

- I respect your PoV on 100% domestication but it'll take few decades. Meanwhile everybody can maintain their PoV like different private firms, no issues. This is just time-pass. No personal comments. Many things can be beyond us bcoz we all have different profiles.

- Human DNA same everywhere. India with highest population now, also got best level brains giving global CEOs, but a lot of domestic corruption, discouragement, laziness, jealousy, over-optimism with peace, etc. Americans are not aliens or helped by ETs at Area-51.
Our domestic & international PPP needs to succeed.

- In a 6gen thread i won't deviate towards 4gen tech like LCA, MWF, F404, F414, etc, or even 5gen tech with their own threads.

- There should be options to avoid arm twisting, sanctions, unforeseen wars elsewhere, etc.

- "Business jet & fighter are worlds apart". Look what i actually said about makers with whom we expect JV -

From small engines of business jets to biggest like GE-9X, the makers have vast experience.

- I'm fully in for Kaveri 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 6.0..... but whether it is funding GTRE or JV, making local equivalent of 404, then of 414, then of 6gen, that's linear approach of 10 yrs + 10 yrs, would result in engine for our 6gen in 2026+10+10=2046 A.D. which will mature to production in 2056 A.D. Will China wait with its J-36, J-50 & many types of UCAVs till then? Or are we expecting USA/NATO to weaken China in Taiwan war?
And i'm talking about just the higher thrust level to begin with, while DRDO researches ceramic RF blockers, TVC, cooling, etc. Different teams look into different aspects.
If a 404 puppy jet with 49/79 KN thust is needed, fine, put it in UAVs. Let remaining PPP professionals focus on other products.

- A dry/wet thrust level have to be decided based on role, performance of the new jet. 6gen focus on increasing range, payload, DEW, networking, more avionics. Naval design adds more structural weight. Hence new engine needs to be better than existing ones.

- F119 & F135 engine specs were kept secret like its weight, components, etc & silently updated recently on internet. They will do the same secrecy for XA series engines for NGAD, F/A-XX. When POTUS said "nothing comes close to F-47 in speed, range, payload, etc" then it automatically indicates very strong engine. Why they'll reveal their secret today?

- All engines are being upraded - F119, F135, AL-41, WS series, etc.

- A big country like India won't ever operate just 1 class jet like AMCA & Rafale. A medium jet has its all types of limits. We'll always have the body of spear but the tip of spear cannot be blunt.

- We may not need big range to invade China like USA needs F-47 in APAC but we do need capability for rapid mobilization & repositioning across India during war.

Remaining PoV i'll explain in AHCA thread with diagrams, calculations, tables, etc. I encourage other members to open threads on their ideas for any platform they wish.

 

[Subgradewalker]

- I respect your PoV on 100% domestication but it'll take few decades. Meanwhile everybody can maintain their PoV like different private firms, no issues. This is just time-pass. No personal comments. Many things can be beyond us bcoz we all have different profiles.

- Human DNA same everywhere. India with highest population now, also got best level brains giving global CEOs, but a lot of domestic corruption, discouragement, laziness, jealousy, over-optimism with peace, etc. Americans are not aliens or helped by ETs at Area-51.
Our domestic & international PPP needs to succeed.

- In a 6gen thread i won't deviate towards 4gen tech like LCA, MWF, F404, F414, etc, or even 5gen tech with their own threads.

- There should be options to avoid arm twisting, sanctions, unforeseen wars elsewhere, etc.

- "Business jet & fighter are worlds apart". Look what i actually said about makers with whom we expect JV -


- I'm fully in for Kaveri 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 6.0..... but whether it is funding GTRE or JV, making local equivalent of 404, then of 414, then of 6gen, that's linear approach of 10 yrs + 10 yrs, would result in engine for our 6gen in 2026+10+10=2046 A.D. which will mature to production in 2056 A.D. Will China wait with its J-36, J-50 & many types of UCAVs till then? Or are we expecting USA/NATO to weaken China in Taiwan war?
And i'm talking about just the higher thrust level to begin with, while DRDO researches ceramic RF blockers, TVC, cooling, etc. Different teams look into different aspects.
If a 404 puppy jet with 49/79 KN thust is needed, fine, put it in UAVs. Let remaining PPP professionals focus on other products.

- A dry/wet thrust level have to be decided based on role, performance of the new jet. 6gen focus on increasing range, payload, DEW, networking, more avionics. Naval design adds more structural weight. Hence new engine needs to be better than existing ones.

- F119 & F135 engine specs were kept secret like its weight, components, etc & silently updated recently on internet. They will do the same secrecy for XA series engines for NGAD, F/A-XX. When POTUS said "nothing comes close to F-47 in speed, range, payload, etc" then it automatically indicates very strong engine. Why they'll reveal their secret today?

- All engines are being upraded - F119, F135, AL-41, WS series, etc.

- A big country like India won't ever operate just 1 class jet like AMCA & Rafale. A medium jet has its all types of limits. We'll always have the body of spear but the tip of spear cannot be blunt.

- We may not need big range to invade China like USA needs F-47 in APAC but we do need capability for rapid mobilization & repositioning across India during war.

Remaining PoV i'll explain in AHCA thread with diagrams, calculations, tables, etc. I encourage other members to open threads on their ideas for any platform they wish.

1. Yes. It will take decades. More reason to not be hoodwinked again. I am sure some officials at high level back in 1950s, 1990s, 2000s,2010s would have said same thing while pondering over Marut, LCA, Kaveri and their funding. I have not made any personal comments, I am genuinely surprised over your take on 6th gen engine vis a vis India.

2. Comparing India's ecosystem with America is whole another issue. Let's save that discussion for other thread since it will open history chapters before from WW1.

3. "There should be options to safeguard against army twisting".. Yes. But that doesn't happen by window shopping for another foreign engine. How are you gonna build an airframe like that? Even if by chance, two foreign nations have similar engines.. enabling feasible development of same airframe for both.. no one is going to sell you engine without exclusive guarantees. And the other vendor is not gonna keep its supply chain ready for "just in case" we need an option 20 years later. Even 404,135,177.. all are engines built for different platforms. So, even if IAF flies several categories of next gen platforms.. that doesn't mean that it will have several engine choices for each platform.
How will you negate arm twisting in that situation? Without self reliance.

4. Your idea of different teams of DRDO looking into different things is already how it's different labs function. But you can't jump to 200+ thrust without achieving 98+ thrust. The thrust doesn't increase without advancing the science behind it. It includes ceramics, cooling , TVC too. Even the PPP partners need the required level of tech to develop higher thrust.
Your idea works in cases of US who have spent century developing engines from scratch. Once Pratt& Whitney have a 150+ KN engine.. they have the institutional knowledge continuity to now tweak it for a 50+, 70+ thrust engines. Not for India where our best iteration so far has been around 50+ dry thrust. Wether PPP or DPSU or Pvt ltd.. all will need to spend time, moolah and energy of their own to advance the same things DRDO is working on.
That's what the engine JV and AMCA project is supposed to do btw.

F414 is 4gen medium class engine. while 6gen will be heavy class engine.
A 6gen jet with 2x F135 class engines is equivalent to 4x F414 engines.

5. We don't have any project anytime soon which requires 2x F135 class engines . So, your point about will China's J-35, 50 wait is moot. Which airframe are you gonna fit that 6th gen engines on? Even AMCA isnt coming before 2040. No amount of 117,177,135 ( which themselves aren't 6th gen) is gonna overwhelm China if we have to depend on others for spares. Spares which might come from China too. Btw, very optimistic of you to think about India developing 6th gen engines by 2046 by developing step by step. It will be good if our own R&D'd 5th gen engines are in production by then. And it's normal and we need not be dettered by it.

6. You idea and approch would make sense if you were talking about Engines for Tejas. But you're leapfrogging too much.

 

[Optimist]

- Human DNA same everywhere. India with highest population now, also got best level brains giving global CEOs, but a lot of domestic corruption, discouragement, laziness, jealousy, over-optimism with peace, etc. Americans are not aliens or helped by ETs at Area-51.
Our domestic & international PPP needs to succeed.

There is a brain drain, One of my Indian friends got her masters in AI, with a high-distinction, She intends to settle in Australia

 

[redpanda]

There is a brain drain, One of my Indian friends got her masters in AI, with a high-distinction, She intends to settle in Australia

Yeah but not everyone would look to leave. There is limit to brain drain. You can never stop people from leaving. Some will leave, some will stay and some will comeback. We have seen in last 10 years many people coming back and contributing to progress of India. Founder of Zoho, founder of certain semiconductor startups, some AI start-ups, some Quantum computing startups, etc. Indian government even runs a programme to reward such folks. In recent times I have become more of believer of the idea that our diaspora is more of an asset than baggage as they should be.

 

[Optimist]

Having a programme to encourage highly educated people to return is a good idea, They also bring back the experience they obtained overseas

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[Subgradewalker]

Will they transfer the experimental results, the lectures from scientist of older gen who worked on M-88 back then?
Current R&D team of Safran travelling to India to Collab and get indian counterparts on track.

Will French teams work on creating an engine ecosystem by building testing facilities, factories that can build advanced comps..? Integrate french-indian supply chain.

Are Indian scientist going to learn by trial or just be given direct "know-why" via books, lectures. For example.. in case of high temp metal.. will they co-develop by approaching it from India's starting point or skip the part and jump to frenchs start point. Ignoring the X&Os of research before it?

This ain't accusation or limited to french. I am wondering to what extent this "Engine JV" adds value to India. If anyone in know from Indian side can clarify, that would be great. Thanks.