Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF)

[_Anonymous_]

Imo, makes no sense to induct TEDBF in its current form. It won't be much better than a F5 model Rafale-M by the time it arrives.

I disagree & have written about this in the past . Get experience with building and operating a 4.5th Gen MRCBF before moving ahead with a 5th Gen FA.

OPEX & CAPEX of a 5th Gen FA will be cost prohibitive given the already small budgets allocated to the IN. Moreover jumping straight away into development of a 5th Gen Naval FA will come with its own set of challenges especially since we've no experience of building even an indigenous 4th Gen Naval FA & maintaining it.

I'd rather the IN goes in for shore based 5th Gen FA modified for Naval Operations before developing the definitive 5th Gen Carrier Based Naval FA. However the IN has other plans.

Otoh, A 5G carrier based jet will be non-negotiable in the next 10-15 yrs. Even better, if we can develop a VSTOL capable jet. One that could operate off of not just future CVs but also the 4 planned LHDs.

Reportedly, the F-35Bs lift fan w/swivelling nozzle was based on a Soviet design used in the Yak-38 jump jet, a Harrier analogue. Perhaps, we can JV with the Russians on an upgraded version.

They'll no doubt be needing one too, perhaps for a follow-on ship to the now retired Kuznetsov.

Yeah , that VSTOL design is extremely problematic , leads to extensive service is therefore maintenance heavy with low availablity , is therefore also short lived & costs a lot in terms of OPEX & CAPEX .

Has been so universally . The F-35 is no exception . We had an extremely trying time with the Sea Harriers . Check with @vstol Jockey & his experiences of flying the Sea Harriers for the IN.

 

[Speedster1]

I disagree & have written about this in the past . Get experience with building and operating a 4.5th Gen MRCBF before moving ahead with a 5th Gen FA.

We already have built up an extensive knowledge base in carrier ac design via the LCA-N prog. There is no room for Rafale-M, a 4.5G TEDBF and a 5G carrier jet on our carriers.

Even the US carrier air wings operate only 2 fighter types at any given time. In any case, manned ship-based fighters will be increasingly complemented by UCAV/unmanned wingman in future.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

En plus des 114  Rafale commandés, l'Inde a demandé à la France de lui fournir 31 Rafale Marine

In addition to the 114 Rafale aircraft already ordered, India has asked France to supply 31 Rafale Marine fighter jets.

This order is enormous, especially since India recently signed two contracts with Dassault Aviation for the delivery of 62 Rafale aircraft.

Michel CABIROL

One order could be hiding another. According to our information, India has asked France to also supply new Rafale Marine fighter jets in addition to the mega-order of 114 combat aircraft destined for the Indian Air Force (IAF). This brings the total order to 145 Rafale aircraft. This is a colossal number, especially since India recently signed two contracts with Dassault Aviation for the delivery of 62 Rafale aircraft (36 for the IAF in 2016 and 26 for the Indian Navy in April 2025).

The Indian Navy, the first to acquire this aircraft, has had a need for 31 new Rafales identified several years ago. It will actually have significantly more than its French counterpart (57, compared to 41 for France) if this order is finalized.

The future Indian Rafale Marine aircraft will primarily be deployed on the INS Vikrant, India's first domestically built aircraft carrier, and potentially on the INS Vikramaditya, a modernized former Russian ship. India also plans to build a third aircraft carrier.

For Dassault Aviation, the contract for 114 Rafales has long been a major objective. As is its custom when aiming for a goal, the aircraft manufacturer has dedicated all its resources to it. On Friday, February 13, it received the green light from the Defense Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by the Indian Minister of Defense. This crucial decision, however, is only the first step in a very long administrative and political process that will stretch over several months, or even years. The signing of a contract is still far from certain, given the Indian administration's reputation for being slow and bureaucratic.

 

[Sathya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2022625793109823588

 

[Parthu]

En plus des 114  Rafale commandés, l'Inde a demandé à la France de lui fournir 31 Rafale Marine

In addition to the 114 Rafale aircraft already ordered, India has asked France to supply 31 Rafale Marine fighter jets.

This order is enormous, especially since India recently signed two contracts with Dassault Aviation for the delivery of 62 Rafale aircraft.

Michel CABIROL

One order could be hiding another. According to our information, India has asked France to also supply new Rafale Marine fighter jets in addition to the mega-order of 114 combat aircraft destined for the Indian Air Force (IAF). This brings the total order to 145 Rafale aircraft. This is a colossal number, especially since India recently signed two contracts with Dassault Aviation for the delivery of 62 Rafale aircraft (36 for the IAF in 2016 and 26 for the Indian Navy in April 2025).

The Indian Navy, the first to acquire this aircraft, has had a need for 31 new Rafales identified several years ago. It will actually have significantly more than its French counterpart (57, compared to 41 for France) if this order is finalized.

The future Indian Rafale Marine aircraft will primarily be deployed on the INS Vikrant, India's first domestically built aircraft carrier, and potentially on the INS Vikramaditya, a modernized former Russian ship. India also plans to build a third aircraft carrier.

For Dassault Aviation, the contract for 114 Rafales has long been a major objective. As is its custom when aiming for a goal, the aircraft manufacturer has dedicated all its resources to it. On Friday, February 13, it received the green light from the Defense Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by the Indian Minister of Defense. This crucial decision, however, is only the first step in a very long administrative and political process that will stretch over several months, or even years. The signing of a contract is still far from certain, given the Indian administration's reputation for being slow and bureaucratic.

Haven't heard anything about additional Rafale-Ms from Indian media.

But I won't be surprised (and won't be disappointed) if this is true. Have always maintained that additional airframes of whichever plane we end up buying under MRCBF would always make more sense than pursuing TEDBF in its current form.

 

[Lolwa]

Haven't heard anything about additional Rafale-Ms from Indian media.

But I won't be surprised (and won't be disappointed) if this is true. Have always maintained that additional airframes of whichever plane we end up buying under MRCBF would always make more sense than pursuing TEDBF in its current form.

The 57 need was always there. I just hope the French actually share the tech properly and we can build upon it instead of the standard screwdrivergiri.

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2022625793109823588

LoL. This site's favourite defence reportage portal I D R W is reporting the IN has redeployed it's personnel from the development team of the N-LCA to focus on the TEDBF which as long speculated is now going to be a 5th Gen FA program with little to do with the IAF's AMCA especially since we're on track to procure 114 nos Rafales for the IAF thru MII.

As suspected earlier the IN will now find it easier to weasel it's way in for procurement of the additional nos in the original MRCBF tender .

How will the IN with the most CAPEX & OPEX heavy budget of all forces yet with the least resources allocated to it till date juggle the continued procurement & maintenance of its surface fleet , the underwater fleet , the SSN program , the newly created requirement for surface & underwater drones & then Naval Aviation will be a treat to watch in the coming days.

 

[Ashwin]

In addition to the 114 Rafale ordered, India has asked France to supply it with 31 Rafale Marine

https://twitter.com/x/status/2022760101812003302

Is it over?

 

[Professor∆Baaz]

In addition to the 114 Rafale ordered, India has asked France to supply it with 31 Rafale Marine

https://twitter.com/x/status/2022760101812003302

Is it over?

Looks like 4.5 gen TEDBF is over if additional rafale-M are coming ( its almost confirmed ). so are they planning to go for clean sheet 5th generation design ?

 

[babablacksheep]

Looks like 4.5 gen TEDBF is over if additional rafale-M are coming ( its almost confirmed ). so are they planning to go for clean sheet 5th generation design ?

The chart indicates that the non-stealth design version of the TEDBF is now slated for induction starting from 2038 onwards.



Given this extended wait, it would be far more strategic to pivot toward developing a clean-sheet stealth fighter design targeted for service entry in the early-mid 2040s & In the interim, procuring additional Rafale M jets.
So i do hope they are planning that.


Maybe even collaborate with France on SCAF fighter for Indian navy requirements.

 

[Parthu]

View attachment 49737
The chart indicates that the non-stealth design version of the TEDBF is now slated for induction starting from 2038 onwards.



Given this extended wait, it would be far more strategic to pivot toward developing a clean-sheet stealth fighter design targeted for service entry in the early-mid 2040s & In the interim, procuring additional Rafale M jets.
So i do hope they are planning that.

Been advocating for exactly this. Hope it plays out like that.

It serves to know that IN always only wanted a next-gen platform under TEDBF. The unforeseen problems with MiG-29K platform coupled with ADA's promise that they can quickly deliver a '4++ gen' deck-based fighter is how the IN was reluctantly made to agree for the TEDBF in its current form.

Now that it's clear even the '4++ gen' TEDBF won't be ready till ~2040, coupled with the fact we've already found an interim solution that can address our problems (Rafale-M), we now have the opportunity to refocus the Deck-Based Fighter requirement toward a truly next-gen platform, with proper airframe stealth & internal weapon bays.

Maybe even collaborate with France on SCAF fighter for Indian navy requirements.

While I would prefer an indigenous solution that has as much in common with the AMCA as possible, the SCAF makes for an enticing option as well given the timelines we're looking at.

Especially if we pursue it together with the IAF (they need a 6th gen air-superiority platform to eventually replace MKI as well).

France's joint program with Germany is running into trouble because the Germans don't want to accommodate for a naval variant as they don't have a Carrier - but we do. And our future carriers after Vikrant-II, which would be the ones we want a next-gen jet for, will all be CATOBAR as well, same as the PANG.

There's scope for collaboration, hope GOI/MoD looks into it.

 

[babablacksheep]

Been advocating for exactly this. Hope it plays out like that.

It serves to know that IN always only wanted a next-gen platform under TEDBF. The unforeseen problems with MiG-29K platform coupled with ADA's promise that they can quickly deliver a '4++ gen' deck-based fighter is how the IN was reluctantly made to agree for the TEDBF in its current form.

Now that it's clear even the '4++ gen' TEDBF won't be ready till ~2040, coupled with the fact we've already found an interim solution that can address our problems (Rafale-M), we now have the opportunity to refocus the Deck-Based Fighter requirement toward a truly next-gen platform, with proper airframe stealth & internal weapon bays.



While I would prefer an indigenous solution that has as much in common with the AMCA as possible, the SCAF makes for an enticing option as well given the timelines we're looking at.

Especially if we pursue it together with the IAF (they need a 6th gen air-superiority platform to eventually replace MKI as well).

France's joint program with Germany is running into trouble because the Germans don't want to accommodate for a naval variant as they don't have a Carrier - but we do. And our future carriers after Vikrant-II, which would be the ones we want a next-gen jet for, will all be CATOBAR as well, same as the PANG.

There's scope for collaboration, hope GOI/MoD looks into it.

It can be indegenious, our avionics, our engines , common airframe with shared IP.

The engine Collab with safran is for 120-140kn engine for amca(120kn requirement), the engine will have potential to be scaled up to 140+kn easily.

Scaf as we are looking at it, is gonna be between 30-35 tons mtow based on current indications.

If lower ~30tons mtow design is decided than ~120kn amca engine can be directly fitted.
If 35 tons mtow is chosen, its will not be hard to scale up the engine to 140kn.


Will have common engine lineage with amca, common avionics lineage with amca, airframe will ultimately has to be different than amca even if we go at it alone.


Speaking with hpoium, We can also collaborate on pang too, to have 4 carriers by early 2040s, 2 stobar( vikrant and another sister class to be delivered in mid 2030s) 2 catobar( Indian pang construction started in early 2030s,service in early 2040s)

@Amarante

 

[Ashwin]

It serves to know that IN always only wanted a next-gen platform under TEDBF. The unforeseen problems with MiG-29K platform coupled with ADA's promise that they can quickly deliver a '4++ gen' deck-based fighter is how the IN was reluctantly made to agree for the TEDBF in its current form.

Now that it's clear even the '4++ gen' TEDBF won't be ready till ~2040, coupled with the fact we've already found an interim solution that can address our problems (Rafale-M), we now have the opportunity to refocus the Deck-Based Fighter requirement toward a truly next-gen platform, with proper airframe stealth & internal weapon bays.

Just copy and paste what the Chinese have done with the J-35 design. Design primarily for the navy, then create an even better land version by removing navy-only stuff thus reducing weight. Reuse the maximum LRUs from LCA Mk2 and AMCA Mk1. Ensure it is export-ready from day one.

 

[Chain Smoker]

Been advocating for exactly this. Hope it plays out like that.

It serves to know that IN always only wanted a next-gen platform under TEDBF. The unforeseen problems with MiG-29K platform coupled with ADA's promise that they can quickly deliver a '4++ gen' deck-based fighter is how the IN was reluctantly made to agree for the TEDBF in its current form.

Now that it's clear even the '4++ gen' TEDBF won't be ready till ~2040, coupled with the fact we've already found an interim solution that can address our problems (Rafale-M), we now have the opportunity to refocus the Deck-Based Fighter requirement toward a truly next-gen platform, with proper airframe stealth & internal weapon bays.



While I would prefer an indigenous solution that has as much in common with the AMCA as possible, the SCAF makes for an enticing option as well given the timelines we're looking at.

Especially if we pursue it together with the IAF (they need a 6th gen air-superiority platform to eventually replace MKI as well).

France's joint program with Germany is running into trouble because the Germans don't want to accommodate for a naval variant as they don't have a Carrier - but we do. And our future carriers after Vikrant-II, which would be the ones we want a next-gen jet for, will all be CATOBAR as well, same as the PANG.

There's scope for collaboration, hope GOI/MoD looks into it.

French will scam us just like Russians, they will use as an ATM to bankroll the development.

At last they will show us middle finger & we will be left with dick in our hands.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

We've been going in circles.

> We need more clarification from IN, ADA, DRDO on their indication of 5gen TEDBF at Aero India 2025. Now too many eggs in the basket, HAL will be busy even w/o AMCA, we have to skip something(s) & do something with domestic & international PPP.

> Repeating again - evolution doesn't wait. Naval jets won't get any threat discount.

> India would remain lagging 3rd world consumer nation supplying tech people/products/services to World, get arm twisted, or absorb its population into industry & level up to developed nations?

> In emerging era of 6gen, the 4gen jets are seeing their last few decades & the only option for non-R&D nations. India is not that anymore.
When hostile neighbor is flying 6gen prototypes & stopgap Rafale-M have been ordered, how can someone support brand new 4gen jet in a spearhead role for next 40-50 years? It is like Suicide & SABOTAGE.

> Some nations including naval power ones are supporting Pak, BD, Sri-Lanka, Burma, Mauritius, etc.
Then there're separatist minded people in India also, who play victim card via constitution, democracy, etc.
What if more foreign hostile naval assets arrive against India to favor such hostile neighbors & separatists? It'll be 1971 like situation again. Will Russia send its fleet again to defend us? And today why should most populous nation India need to call a foreign fleet from half way across world?
IN needs to be prepared.

> If 5+gen TEDBF has not begun officially then some day it will, that day should be this year or after few/many years?
Actually looking at our delays, we should aim for 6gen TEDBF then we'll get 5gen.

> Linear or parallel approach, for a big nation operating many types of jets, especially with record delays, a global tech advancement based approach is needed. No room for obsolete things.

> S/w & H/w tech have evolved a lot. They need timely introduction into industry. Nothing is easy or difficult, it depends on knowledge, simulation of tech evolution, confidence, initiative.

> Looking at X-35 Vs F-35, YF-22 Vs F-22, we can easily do whatever we wan't but with strict & timely coordination.



> I don't have 3D CAD computer so i had made a 5gen TEDBF outline compared to existing 4gen TEDBF, but the revealing of F-47 NGAD news spoiled my planned posts. A stealthy delta-canard can also be made.
OR
tweak AF-AMCA into N-AMCA by adding better landing gears & adjusting the skeleton.



> A clean-sheet design will also either be delta-canard or tandem bi-plane or tri-plane, what else? I visualize my AHCA idea as a primay 6gen naval jet & adapted to AF.

> A higher thrust engine would be great justice, needs to be initiated this year by PPP.

Tick tock tick tock

 

[jmaxwell_]

The champagne is flowing in Paris tonight.
These macaca Indians will entirely fund our 6th gen programs! While we sell them 4.5gen just near the sell-by date! Can't believe we strung them along since the Ouaragan days of killing Marut!

 

[Hydra]

Ordering more rafale m is logical option than developing TEDBF for 31 numbers. Its logical if we have plan for 4 to 6 AC in future, remember GOI is yet to approve third AC.
Another issue IAF isn't interested in ORCA, the proposed air force vsriant.

So at the end its illogical to spend time & money on TEDBF. Its easy fantasize about TEDBF, stealth aircraft etc. But do a reality check.

 

[Speedster1]

The champagne is flowing in Paris tonight.
These macaca Indians will entirely fund our 6th gen programs! While we sell them 4.5gen just near the sell-by date! Can't believe we strung them along since the Ouaragan days of killing Marut!

And they're just getting started by the looks of it.

Some fairly credible Twitter commentators are saying that the French Leclerc would eventually be spun off into FMBT and that India would get into a JV with French industry to build 2 +2 PANG hulls in Indian yards with outfitting performed separately to national specifications.

 

[_Anonymous_]

We already have built up an extensive knowledge base in carrier ac design via the LCA-N prog. There is no room for Rafale-M, a 4.5G TEDBF and a 5G carrier jet on our carriers.

TEDBF was supposed to have had it's first flight in 2026 as per statements by the ADA in AI-21 IIRC, the scheduling being Mk-2 -> 2022 , AMCA - > 2024 & TEDBF-> 2026 .

Then came news the sanction for funds for the Mk-2 was subject to an agreement with the US for limited ToT & MII for the GE F-414 TF. Finally the project was sanctioned & funds released towards the end of 2023 IIRC.

AMCA kept getting delayed because the GoI had a bee in its bonnet about allotting it to the Pvt Sector in which we lost 3 years & so on till the latest development.

Had the technology for TEDBF not existed I don't think the ADA would've issued such a statement.

Secondly even before the theatre-ization policy , the IN had plans to take on shore based flying which was vehemently opposed by the IAF. Today peninsular India's defence rests with the IN.

Apart from the ~ 50 odd MiG-29K which themselves are decripit apart from having absymal availability what are you going to defend peninsular India with in terms of air power?

Those 57 nos Rafales are barely going to be enough for the 2 ACs we have let alone the 3rd one we're planning & the 4th one which should be on the drawing board now.

Ideally we should've stuck to the original game plan assuming the IN was honest in its intentions when it publicly declared the 26 nos Rafale M would be a stop gap solution before the TEDBF came on board to replace the MiG-29 K.

Those TEDBFs could easily go up to twice the numbers projected namely from 60 nos to 120 nos if not more. In addition the IN could also feature 2-3 squadrons of N-LCA if not more as trainers & for a shore based patrol role.

Now all you have is 26 nos Rafales which we'd be inducting by 2031-32 & the remaining 31 nos whose signing will coincide with the signing of the 114 nos Rafales for the IAF & the JV for the 120 KN TF in 2 years from now in all likelihood.

That pushes the induction of the first of these MII Rafales all the way to 2032 & beyond. Moreover the 5th Gen TEDBF is a paper project. For it to get the requisite sanctions will take another few years.

Let's assume we start the project in 2030. When do you think we'd induct the first of these 5th Gen TEDBF? By 2050 ? I can't see how we'd get it before that. And what would we do in the interim?

Keep flying the MiG-29K till they fall off the skies in the best traditions of our armed forces viz the MiG-21 & the Sea Harriers.

I can tell you straight up this requirement for the Rafale M will not end with this 26+31 configuration. We're going in for at least a 100 if not more. Besides the 5th Gen FA is supposed to be the tip of the spear. Who or what is going to do the heavy lifting?

If your answer is a UCAV, where's it? What are we going to equip the proverbial 3rd & 4th IAC with in as far as the Naval Aviation Complex goes?

Does 100+ 4.5 Gen ++ TEDBF seem a more prudent cost effective option or does 100+ Rafale M seem like it?

This is precisely the reason I've been opposed to additional Rafale M. You open the gates to some, you open the gates to all.

Even the US carrier air wings operate only 2 fighter types at any given time. In any case, manned ship-based fighters will be increasingly complemented by UCAV/unmanned wingman in future.

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2023010763057811651

this person once said MK2 won't be a reality. Bit scared now.