Indian Automotive Sector

[Defc0n]

Tbh it is not that simple. It depends on your vehicle. Even some older vehicles like from Honda are E20 compliant since 2009. And some E10 compliant vehicles have some engines that can work on E20 without much issue. So the problem with E20 can vary case by case basis. Most of the problem with these PIL if you read carefully is those are poorly filed. And they are trying to go against the law itself as whole. Ethanol blending itself is not a problem, E20 is something that was bound to happen sooner or later.

We should look beyond all this uproar and need to look at this issue from a more scientific and statistical perspective. That is only way to understand the real picture.


Also Gadkari isn't the Oil Minister. I don't think Puri has ever said we are going E27 anytime soon...There is just too uproar, we are not going to E27 by 2030.

I can go by my own experience—

a. Honda is the only car which has been E20 compliant since ~2009.
b. My car (Ignis 2022) is E10 Compliant.
c. I have noticed jerkiness and throttle lag post this transition. Also, reduced mileage.
d. A huge chunk of cars pre-2023 are E10 compliant and not E-20 compliant. Law cannot be made based on select few that are.
e. The target for E20 was 2029-2030, going live in 2025 without any option for E10 for non-compliant vehicles is basically a scam and forcing the consumers to own the problems of government’s boneheaded policies.
f. It is a very simple equation, E20 with option to get E10 fuel will solve the issue immediately, but that is being bluntly refused.
g. Who will be responsible for issues that consumers run into? Will insurance cover it? Will the car maker bear the responsibility?
h. Why aren’t the car manufacturers coming out and clarifying whether their cars can run on E20 without problem ? It’s not just the engines, the fuel pipes and injectors need to protected against the hygroscopic effects of ethanol - they are not present by default in E10 cars to work seamlessly with E20. Also, main question, why aren’t the manufacturers coming out and saying it?

I emailed Maruti and they just refused to confirm that they tested the vehicles on E20, their email states “Government and ARAI has done extensive testing …” - I mean who gives a F?

 

[redpanda]

Also there is not really any concrete evidence against E20 except mostly anecdotes. So authorities can easily dismiss such claims. A degradation in performance in an old vehicle could happen from various things. And you can't really prove E20 is the cause of it. What I'm saying is if you want to go against this, you need solid data to back up your arguments. I haven't seen anything like that so far from the people who are going to SC. I'm not in favour of the government here, but I'm just merely stating the problem with current uproar against E20. It has all the mouth but no teeth to back it up..

 

[Defc0n]

Also there is not really any concrete evidence against E20 except mostly anecdotes. So authorities can easily dismiss such claims. A degradation in performance in an old vehicle could happen from various things. And you can't really prove E20 is the cause of it. What I'm saying is if you want to go against this, you need solid data to back up your arguments. I haven't seen anything like that so far from the people who are going to SC. I'm not in favour of the government here, but I'm just merely stating the problem with current uproar against E20. It has all the mouth but no teeth to back it up..

There has been videos made on the same that were subsequently taken down (we all know why) by different automotive youtubers. There has been widespread rusting caused by E20 and yes there is significant proof of the same. Also, why not allow it in court if everything is so straightforward? It is that easy, this decision will not withstand a fair trial - the government knows it and the judiciary knows it. It’s unfortunate to see the judiciary not acting independently, i mean what’s the bloody point of a judiciary?

https://www.reddit.com/r/carIndia/s/953vFMVA02

 

[Subgradewalker]

Also there is not really any concrete evidence against E20 except mostly anecdotes. So authorities can easily dismiss such claims. A degradation in performance in an old vehicle could happen from various things. And you can't really prove E20 is the cause of it. What I'm saying is if you want to go against this, you need solid data to back up your arguments. I haven't seen anything like that so far from the people who are going to SC.

But that shouldn't be how things work. It's the imperative of the policy makers to show that it doesn't degrade cars, should also bring changes in pricing mechanism to reflect the advantages of policy.

I am not saying to change the prices but the mechanism on which price is calculated. If you are blending ethanol, surely you can't take prices based on "crude oil" pricing strategy.

The policy, initiative and roll out 'could' be in best interest and also the right thing. But doing things like this only gives space for manipulation by vested interests. I thought farm Laws hoopla was enough reason for govt to strengthen is communication machinery and roll out strategy.

The advisory to the various ministers need a bit of cleaning now. Same goes for Info warfare. Both BJP and GOI have lost significant ground in IW. And traditional media can't cut it alone. It needs to regulate Foreign SM platforms cause no one knows if any adversarial govt or board member is controlling and amplifying reach of certain povs. It's not hard to do today.

 

[redpanda]

I can go by my own experience—

a. Honda is the only car which has been E20 compliant since ~2009.
b. My car (Ignis 2022) is E10 Compliant.
c. I have noticed jerkiness and throttle lag post this transition. Also, reduced mileage.
d. A huge chunk of cars pre-2023 are E10 compliant and not E-20 compliant. Law cannot be made based on select few that are.
e. The target for E20 was 2029-2030, going live in 2025 without any option for E10 for non-compliant vehicles is basically a scam and forcing the consumers to own the problems of government’s boneheaded policies.
f. It is a very simple equation, E20 with option to get E10 fuel will solve the issue immediately, but that is being bluntly refused.
g. Who will be responsible for issues that consumers run into? Will insurance cover it? Will the car maker bear the responsibility?
h. Why aren’t the car manufacturers coming out and clarifying whether their cars can run on E20 without problem ? It’s not just the engines, the fuel pipes and injectors need to protected against the hygroscopic effects of ethanol - they are not present by default in E10 cars to work seamlessly with E20. Also, main question, why aren’t the manufacturers coming out and saying it?

I emailed Maruti and they just refused to confirm that they tested the vehicles on E20, their email states “Government and ARAI has done extensive testing …” - I mean who gives a F?

I do agree with you. I have seen similar performance degradation myself in older cars. But it's hard to prove because each car is different. Only manufacturers would know what kind of effects E20 will have on their respective E10 certified vehicles. That is why these PILs are being rejected, because they can't provide proper evidence to back themselves up..

 

[redpanda]

But that shouldn't be how things work. It's the imperative of the policy makers to show that it doesn't degrade cars, should also bring changes in pricing mechanism to reflect the advantages of policy.

I am not saying to change the prices but the mechanism on which price is calculated. If you are blending ethanol, surely you can't take prices based on "crude oil" pricing strategy.

The policy, initiative and roll out 'could' be in best interest and also the right thing. But doing things like this only gives space for manipulation by vested interests. I thought farm Laws hoopla was enough reason for govt to strengthen is communication machinery and roll out strategy.

The advisory to the various ministers need a bit of cleaning now. Same goes for Info warfare. Both BJP and GOI have lost significant ground in IW. And traditional media can't cut it alone. It needs to regulate Foreign SM platforms cause no one knows if any adversarial govt or board member is controlling and amplifying reach of certain povs. It's not hard to do today.

My point was mostly about those PILs tbh. Well the government should provide evidence to back up their claims too. But if you are going to court against the government you have to provide yours too. My point is simple most of these PILs being rejected have been rather weak.

 

[Subgradewalker]

My point was mostly about those PILs tbh. Well the government should provide evidence to back up their claims too. But if you are going to court against the government you have to provide yours too. My point is simple most of these PILs being rejected have been rather weak.

That is true too. Most of these PILs are purposefully left weak, knowing well in advance that it won't even stand a chance.. maybe even on technical adherence.

Just so, someone can get the headlines to 'fuel' a narrative "PIL Rejected". If a PIL is rejected within seconds.. there's definetly an error in the PIL too.

 

[redpanda]

There has been videos made on the same that were subsequently taken down (we all know why) by different automotive youtubers. There has been widespread rusting caused by E20 and yes there is significant proof of the same. Also, why not allow it in court if everything is so straightforward? It is that easy, this decision will not withstand a fair trial - the government knows it and the judiciary knows it. It’s unfortunate to see the judiciary not acting independently, i mean what’s the bloody point of a judiciary?

https://www.reddit.com/r/carIndia/s/953vFMVA02

Eh such test videos hardly work as evidence in the Court. You need lab test reports to put in court that too with an extensive set of Vehicles (Cars, Bike, Trucks, etc.). What I'm saying is it works as evidence for you and me not for the Judiciary. I hope you get my point brother. As Subgradewalker said above i suspect most of these PILs are filed with errors intentionally just to attract attention. Problem is the opposition itself seriously don't want to confront the government head-on on this issue. There are organisations who have the funds and means to carry such extensive lab tests but they won't because the government will get cornered and then they will backtrack and rectify their mistakes. Issue will die down and then people will forget about this. The government might actually get a good support for fixing the issue instead over time just like how they improved their image among farmers post farm bill backtracking overtime. In short, we are kinda stuck between a rock and a wall.

 

[nair]

Go diesel.... Have been driving BS3 with no issues and amazing power.... No E20 lafda also

 

[redpanda]

Go diesel.... Have been driving BS3 with no issues and amazing power.... No E20 lafda also

Gaskari will soon lobby the government for ethanol blending in diesel ig.

Spoiler:

Just Kidding

On a serious note why they are not trying to go for Bio-Petrol or Bio-diesel?

 

[redpanda]

That is true too. Most of these PILs are purposefully left weak, knowing well in advance that it won't even stand a chance.. maybe even on technical adherence.

Just so, someone can get the headlines to 'fuel' a narrative "PIL Rejected". If a PIL is rejected within seconds.. there's definetly an error in the PIL too.

Yeah the first PIL was by some lawyer associated with INC and The Wire. He literally demanded an absurd thing in his PIL. He asked the court to direct the government to provide E0 in 2025 to older vehicles unironically. That is why it got rejected. There is no chance of such case demanding Ethanol-free aka E0 petrol for older vehicle ever getting accepted. Such cases have been rejected back in the E10 implementation days.

 

[Parthu]

TVS Motor Company unveiled a fair few concepts at their EICMA stall in Milan, Italy this year:

Tangent RR supersport​

e.FX.30 electric sport-naked​

Apache RTR HyprStunt street/supermoto​

M1-S electric maxi-scooter​

The TVS X electric scooter was also displayed...​

...as was the already-launched (in India) Apache RTX 300 adventure bike making its European debut:
​

 

[Parthu]

Royal Enfield had a few things to show off as well...

New Bullet 650 - the first Bullet that's not a thumper!​

Himalayan 450 ADV gets a new Mana Black paint scheme​

FF.S6 - Scrambler version of the electric Flying Flea C6​

Mahindra-owned BSA also unveiled the Thunderbolt 350, their first ADV:​

 

[Parthu]

TVS-owned Norton Motorcycles had unveiled a whole new range of bikes...

Manx R supersport, debuting their new 1200 cc V4 motor​

Manx - a naked streetfighter version with the same mill​

Atlas ADV - with a new 585 cc Twin​

...and a more road-focused touring version in the Atlas GT​

While the V4s will be made at Norton's new UK factory, the 585cc twins will produced in India by TVS.

 

[Ashwin]

This is very impressive.

 

[Milspec]

@Parthu

When TVS purchased Norton Motorcycles, I had hopes for some of Norton's products to makes it to the Indian market. Still nothing on that yet. Even if they do make it to India, it will probably be very expensive as Norton's manufacturing will be done in the UK. I hope Bajaj does a better job with KTM.

Ironically the only real innovator in the Indian 2-wheeler market in the last decade has been RE.

Did you see the Norton launches at Eicma? I have very high hopes.

 

[Gautam]

Did you see the Norton launches at Eicma? I have very high hopes.

Yep. Very pretty looking machines, if a bit bulky. I hope they sell like hot cakes.

I might sell my current bike for a bigger one in some years. If Norton sell well in India, I might consider the 586-cc model. Among British bike makers Triumph is probably the highest selling in India. Even they have servicing center issues. For Norton, maybe affiliation with TVS will prevent that.

If nothing else, I will look for the RE 750 cc twin engined bike.

 

[Milspec]

Yep. Very pretty looking machines, if a bit bulky. I hope they sell like hot cakes.

I might sell my current bike for a bigger one in some years. If Norton sell well in India, I might consider the 586-cc model. Among British bike makers Triumph is probably the highest selling in India. Even they have servicing center issues. For Norton, maybe affiliation with TVS will prevent that.

If nothing else, I will look for the RE 750 cc twin engined bike.

Vstar 650- 2008 (in college)
Yamaha FZ6 2011 (used 2016)
RE GT 650 2020
Never sold any bikes or cars, so I am running out of space.
re TWINS will serve you well, Just be careful on the roads.

 

[TARGET]

 

[Milspec]

Sherp would be extremely handy in Marshes both in the west and the east.