LCA AF Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

That will break the backbone of any hopefull homegrown pvt led R&D in defense
Barring some exceptions, homegrown R&D in the pvt sector is miniscule atm. Big names like Adani are busy white labeling phoren products as MII. Smaller startups need govt support via IdeX grants, access to DRDO testing facilities etc to thrive.

Without DRDO handholding/ToT, the pvt sector will be reduced to Tier2/3 component suppliers or build to print partners in global OEM supply chains at best.

The PPP model with DRDO/DPSU + pvt cos sharing work can help the latter scale and build in-house expertise. The AMCA prog is a test case for this approach.
 
Last edited:
Barring some exceptions, homegrown R&D in the pvt sector is miniscule atm. Big names like Adani are busy white labeling phoren products as MII. Smaller startups need govt support via IdeX grants, access to DRDO testing facilities etc to thrive.

Without DRDO handholding/ToT, the pvt sector will be reduced to Tier2/3 component suppliers or build to print partners in global OEM supply chains at best.

The PPP model with DRDO/DPSU + pvt cos sharing work can help the latter scale and build in-house expertise. The AMCA prog is a test case for this approach.

That's why I said hopefull only. I have no expectations from license raj origin pvt industry.
Only from companies setup in this decade and up&coming startups like DG propulsion etc. Their expectations might be dashed as indian pvt houses need their expertise and they could become big. Foreign OEM? Not so much.

Govt support is obvious necessary but then, the one managing idex are ...who?
 
Their expectations might be dashed as indian pvt houses need their expertise and they could become big. Foreign OEM? Not so much.

Govt support is obvious necessary but then, the one managing idex are ...who?
Startups are more likely to be acquired by larger cos like Adani > Alpha Tech Ltd.

While IDeX/DISC grants are only provided to winners of specific challenges, GoI also provides credit guarantee schemes for startups.
 
Startups are more likely to be acquired by larger cos like Adani > Alpha Tech Ltd.

While IDeX/DISC grants are only provided to winners of specific challenges, GoI also provides credit guarantee schemes for startups.

They get acquired cause of the Beauracratic corrupt nature of defense procurement. It's easy to just get a payout and follow passion outside india.
But if you give them an open field, they would rather resist than get acquired. With that negotiating power, they will be asked for help and be a vendor in ecosystem, rather than see better future in Germany.

Even with H1-B end, there's not gonna be any influx of Indian back or decrease in emigration. They just gonna go to Europe which is increasing its self reliance and in dire need of talent. Unless, govt can take a reform unlike any in the history of India.

It's already so hard. This stupid 100% foreign subsidiary thing will be the final nail in coffin . TATA Adani won't lose anything. India will
 
The Indian political class has a cultural aversion to war. Under the N overhang, GOP became paranoid about escalating for fear of retaliation, even in the face of grave provocations like the Mumbai Taj Mahal hotel attack. P Chidambaram recently said that the MM Singh gave in to US pressure in not taking action against Pak post 26/11.

GOP govts indifferent stance on CDS for fear of creating a 'super general' had stalled mil structural reforms. The fiasco involving TSD formed by Gen VK Singh had a lot to do with it.

But even before that, IGs distrust of FM Sam Manekshaw and others had lead to avoidable losses on the battlefield.

However, it was the same IG who oversaw the largest re-armament prog in Indian history post 1965 war which paid off in 1971.

Rajiv G boldly funded the N sub prog in the 80s despite the economic turbulence of the 80s. In the early 1990s, the IAF and IN were at their peak strength.

Since economic liberalisation though, defence spending has not kept up with mil modernisation needs. This had more to do with changing political priorities and even the vain desire to avoid corruption allegations (as in the case of Shri AK Anthony)

The ruling elite in the country thought soft power > hard power until recently. It is because of this lack of vision and the ruthless scheming of the bureaucrats that have created the mess we are in today.

I admit GOP govts sometimes went too far to offer CBMs to Pak but it wasn't because they were afraid of being toppled by the IA.

IGs era procurement after 1965 has less to do with her but more to do with the cold war era politics.

1965 war and Tashkent deal was the initiative from ISSR to woo pakistan at the cost of India. When that failed, and US made inroads into pakistan which was detrimental to USSR.. the USSR, finally came to conclusion about Indian partnership.

IG was no political master. Neither was she even as independent in policy making as we think. If you look at the development of that time, the anti-west and communist influence was at an all time high. KGB was rumoured to have an in with IGs circle. After that, it was no brainer for them to rearm indian army to counter US backed pakistan.
IG didn't do any favor to IA. Her fears reflected in her decisions , even during leading to 1971 and after it. If it was USA, their army personnel would have their own mount rushmore if they successfully broke enemy into two. Without allies support. But in our text books, how many times field marshal Manekshaw gets mentioned?
No one's denying the role she played, she is more praised by the right wing than the leftists for her 1971 contribution, but she didn't do anything to trust IA or feared it less. Given that pak saw military rule during her life. That would've been further exacerbated by khalistani movement, operation blue star and reports of some sikh batallions leaving their posts to move to punjab. Even then, they did not go after civil govt.
This was despite the fact that our constitution makers were very carefull and smart in drafting it in a way that almost ensured that indian military won't be able to throw a civil govt.

It didn't even happen during emergency. Or during operation bluestar.

Despite all that, the nature of autocratic mindset of dynasty is just like that. Her son's and daughters have only been worse and worse combined with no touch with majority of ground india. A person born and raised in a castle can't understand the issues of person living in a hut. That only happens in fairy tale.

As for Rajeev and nuclear sub sanction.. the sub wasn't a threat to dynasty. It's the control. A structural improvement of military and industry complex, policy support strengthen army in a way that nuclear project can't.

Just look at for how long the three services were kept at a distance from each other, they find it difficult to this day to streamline basic things like logistics. The core of theaterisation.
 
who does such tender goes to?
cant ADA do such test in house?
There are fair few pvt companies in Bengaluru for various service contracts, sometimes NAL or some other semi-govt institutions too. Due to lack of manpower & to meet project deadline many work volume are outsourced.
 
Imo, this present GoI only wants domestic MII manufacturing and not domestic IP creation. There is no other way to explain the move to grant Indian company status to local subsidiaries of global OEM. That is just glorified license production with little ToT of real value.

I'm afraid if the DRDO reforms go through as planned, it could irrepairably hurt IDDM progs. Worse, the DRDO chief could be divested of powers to sanction R&D projects altogether.

Yes it is that way mostly. Major issue IAF has faced is the sitting GoI have more or less stopped all kinds of jet except the very light LCA batch that are supposed to replace the Mig21 and did not foresee the huge timeline shift obviously. The entire mindset of this sitting gov is to drip feed 2 sqn of imported jets so they can show net positive domestic procurement through their political propaganda over a certain time period. One way of that propaganda is to simply term the license mfg as indigenous built and that is being prepared for some time. We can see the Israeli stuff being termed as indigenous mfg effort. This essentially reflect the mindset the Govt side has for the domestic programs.

Reform DRDO or other institutions as much as they like, the very notion of the change from a Govt officer/technical level job to a pvt company job if such a method is even suggested there would be major pushback by the employee pool all over India, something even the sitting Govt will not risk. So it is another joomla sort effort that will ultimately solve any major issue.
The usp of a DRDO job, a high level official rank, or a technical rank or even contract employee, certain section of the population are attracted to it. We have seen the top level students mostly reject drdo job offer on campus. So the job is attractive to a different set of educated incumbent and if the reform is removing the sarkari officer tag via the reform applied to even some minor labs, there will be enough pushback. So lets see how this goes ahead.
 
. The entire mindset of this sitting gov is to drip feed 2 sqn of imported jets so they can show net positive domestic procurement through their political propaganda over a certain time period. One way of that propaganda is to simply term the license mfg as indigenous built and that is being prepared for some time. We can see the Israeli stuff being termed as indigenous mfg effort. This essentially reflect the mindset the Govt side has for the domestic programs.
Looks like defence production policy has been dovetailed into the overall push for job creation via mfg and infra projects. Could also be due to lobbying by Adani, L&T and others.

Iirc, during the press meet at the Hermes/Drishti-10 unveiling, a senior Adani official smugly justified whitelabelling Israeli gear because of the "steep learning curve involved in creating domestic design" (I'm paraphrasing here)

Problem is if DRDO's R&D role is diluted and it is turned into a desi DARPA, pvt cos will take over and foriegn OEMs will rule our defence market by proxy.
 
Looks like defence production policy has been dovetailed into the overall push for job creation via mfg and infra projects. Could also be due to lobbying by Adani, L&T and others.

Iirc, during the press meet at the Hermes/Drishti-10 unveiling, a senior Adani official smugly justified whitelabelling Israeli gear because of the "steep learning curve involved in creating domestic design" (I'm paraphrasing here)

Problem is if DRDO's R&D role is diluted and it is turned into a desi DARPA, pvt cos will take over and foriegn OEMs will rule our defence market by proxy.

This white labelling is a menace. And it's proliferating at alarming rate under the cover of JV model.

But DRDOs reforms and focusing on core R&D de-linking system integration and selling products ( kind of) can help it. While Kirana industry relies on white label.. the DARPAesque DRDO can kickstart next gen of defense startups blooming and fostering R&D led ecosystem
 
Iirc, during the press meet at the Hermes/Drishti-10 unveiling, a senior Adani official smugly justified whitelabelling Israeli gear because of the "steep learning curve involved in creating domestic design" (I'm paraphrasing here)

You can't expect a lot of R&D from these big players. One possibility could be to promote deep tech startups via non profit funds, private or govt. In India there is no ecosystem for such. These prevailing issues with engine and high grade material science can only be solved by deep tech firms having goal of some meaningful engineering innovations.
 
But DRDOs reforms and focusing on core R&D de-linking system integration and selling products ( kind of) can help it. While Kirana industry relies on white label.. the DARPAesque DRDO can kickstart next gen of defense startups blooming and fostering R&D led ecosystem
DRDO is already offloading detailed design work to pvt firms, providing oversight and funding. That's as DARPAesque as it gets. If pvt firms get a say in who develops what, (without even having the tech base in-house), guess who they're going to run to.

But this whole point is moot if foriegn oem get the 'Indian' tag.
 
If you look at the number of design iterations it took for Tejas Mk1 to evolve into the definitive Mk2 version, you can well imagine the analysis paralysis at IAF HQ. Rather than choosing an incremental roadmap, Mk2 was turned into a whole new MWF class fighter.

Granted threat perceptions dictate design requirements which change over time. But for an AF that is already down to 29 sqns, it is an open invitation for more trouble down the line.

That is not all. In 2018, the IAF held up clearance for Mk1A at the last minute to demand even more changes (reprofiled canopy, DMG, new MC, etc). These were non-critical changes that could have been integrated post induction. Contrast that with the Rafales which were inducted without ISE mods integrated.

Look the whole idea behind LCA mk1 (as it was originally conceived) was to provide a point defence interceptor with secondary ground attack capability. It does that job well. On the industrial side, we need to build critical production mass before transitioning to Mk2/AMCA.

In any case, we're replacing about 400 late-model MiG-21s with just 220 Mk1As.


We've been over those issues in the past. The LCA program was far too ambitious for Indian industry.

But our troubles began the day Kaveri was decoupled from the Tejas program, ostensibly to speed up induction. That locked us in with GE and gave the US leverage over a critical program.

But as they say, hindsight is always 100%. So I won't argue this point any further.


There is no doubt that the current RM is incompetent. Meanwhile the IAF Chief is now talking about having done his 'homework during MMRCA' while the MRFA RfP is yet to be released.


Our Pathetic performance in weapon platform development will continue. Some times back, we were developing fourth generation fighter so as China. Now they are flying 7th generation plane, and we are struggling to get MWF. Pathetic development and production record. We shall continue to feed inefficient Babus and will always remain behind western and some Asian nations. Even Turkey unveiled Kaan. Our AMCA was to be inducted in 2031 and AMCA II with TVC was planned in 2025. They silently poshed this deadline 4 years behind with AMCA I's Planned induction 2031. Not only that but they say that they work in very tight time frame. No time is enough for them to deliver the project. HTFE 25 is in development for one and half decade and nowhere near to being ready. They just keep developing and developing. Baba Kalyani is quoted saying for last one decade that KAVERI can be readied in 7 years by puling all resources of industries together with different institutes but no action. France was ready to develop Kaveri as the offset of Rafale purchase but no action. Russia and Mitsubishi are offering to help in Kaveri but no action. Sare ke sare Gaddar baithe hai. Tagada salary lo aur kuccha bhi kam mat karo. Except the efforts of Parikar, BJP is nothing more than a batter congress. Had we given a Billion USD to Safran or Miotshubishi, our kaveri with 52 KN/90 KN been flying today. They take more time to negotiate a deal than what it would take to develop a product. They are negotiating doe Kaveri 2.0 for over a decade but development has not started yet. Antony asked IN to take a call on new aircraft carrier. In more than a decade, even requirements are not freezed forget about specification. Sare incompetent aur Harami log baithe hai. Are bhai tum se nahi hota hai to TATA, Kalyani aur L& T to somp do na. Look at the example of K9 Vajra, Joravar etc. World class products delivered before time.
 
Our Pathetic performance in weapon platform development will continue. Some times back, we were developing fourth generation fighter so as China. Now they are flying 7th generation plane, and we are struggling to get MWF. Pathetic development and production record. We shall continue to feed inefficient Babus and will always remain behind western and some Asian nations. Even Turkey unveiled Kaan. Our AMCA was to be inducted in 2031 and AMCA II with TVC was planned in 2025. They silently poshed this deadline 4 years behind with AMCA I's Planned induction 2031. Not only that but they say that they work in very tight time frame. No time is enough for them to deliver the project. HTFE 25 is in development for one and half decade and nowhere near to being ready. They just keep developing and developing. Baba Kalyani is quoted saying for last one decade that KAVERI can be readied in 7 years by puling all resources of industries together with different institutes but no action. France was ready to develop Kaveri as the offset of Rafale purchase but no action. Russia and Mitsubishi are offering to help in Kaveri but no action. Sare ke sare Gaddar baithe hai. Tagada salary lo aur kuccha bhi kam mat karo. Except the efforts of Parikar, BJP is nothing more than a batter congress. Had we given a Billion USD to Safran or Miotshubishi, our kaveri with 52 KN/90 KN been flying today. They take more time to negotiate a deal than what it would take to develop a product. They are negotiating doe Kaveri 2.0 for over a decade but development has not started yet. Antony asked IN to take a call on new aircraft carrier. In more than a decade, even requirements are not freezed forget about specification. Sare incompetent aur Harami log baithe hai. Are bhai tum se nahi hota hai to TATA, Kalyani aur L& T to somp do na. Look at the example of K9 Vajra, Joravar etc. World class products delivered before time.
Irrespective of what your or my take on this whole defence sector is, there are certain undeniable factors that influenced why it is in the state it is today. I am just numbering the points you raised above in my below post separately.

1. Absolute 100% import dependency was the Govt chosen policy for multiple decades since the 1950, count it and we will get a habit of 7-8 decades prior as minimum. Impossible to change this over a stable Govt ruling for the last 10-12 years.

2. Defence industry is considered as extremely sensitive and the Govt want to maintain 100% tight control over it. Private industry participation was actively discouraged and simply denied outright with mindset of I will not let a pvt co set up defence related activity, only psus will do the work. That is equivalent to trying to breathe in CO2 environment.

3. Today suddenly the Govt says pvt industry welcome, but the joomla exist and we see so many example of white label, still most biz flow into psu, some psu actively lobby successfully against competing in open tenders ie monopoly practice.

4. Even if we consider the GoI of today is actively encouraging pvt sector to take up major investment, why would the govt fed ecosystem of officials would suddenly let go of their control? Everywhere there are defence hubs, you can go and find that all of the small mid or big defence biz co have their own contact within the rank of govt officials who have fostered a self serving motto of bribing , slow work pace culture, ripe corruption right from small rank to higher up. Every single Govt, MoD, even military services too, MES & CCE are prime example. This whole clan would push back against any Govt led effort like the DRDO reform.

So given the vast stake at play from multiple stakeholders, there is 100% chance that an ideal scenario will never emerge, neither the Govt not the powerful official lobby nor the psu industries associated with this will let it happen. But if a judgement day like situation comes, they will have to look for a solution themselves and so far a nuclear option as deterrent is the sole such option the Govt rely on and will keep it sharp enough to save own backside first (with a logic that if I survive, the country will too).

The point here is to not ever look to join a race we are not fit for or built for as a country & industrial capability, capacity or mentality. We can not join an arms race competition with continuous niche scientific technological progress with countries far ahead of us (Yet). A lot of defence followers I see want to do just that despite never even working in this sector. All they have is visit to defexpo, take pics and argue with foreign people over social media and moan about blackpilled state of domestic MIC not helping them argue properly. That is just childish.
 
Our Pathetic performance in weapon platform development will continue. Some times back, we were developing fourth generation fighter so as China. Now they are flying 7th generation plane, and we are struggling to get MWF. Pathetic development and production record. We shall continue to feed inefficient Babus and will always remain behind western and some Asian nations. Even Turkey unveiled Kaan. Our AMCA was to be inducted in 2031 and AMCA II with TVC was planned in 2025. They silently poshed this deadline 4 years behind with AMCA I's Planned induction 2031. Not only that but they say that they work in very tight time frame. No time is enough for them to deliver the project. HTFE 25 is in development for one and half decade and nowhere near to being ready. They just keep developing and developing. Baba Kalyani is quoted saying for last one decade that KAVERI can be readied in 7 years by puling all resources of industries together with different institutes but no action. France was ready to develop Kaveri as the offset of Rafale purchase but no action. Russia and Mitsubishi are offering to help in Kaveri but no action. Sare ke sare Gaddar baithe hai. Tagada salary lo aur kuccha bhi kam mat karo. Except the efforts of Parikar, BJP is nothing more than a batter congress. Had we given a Billion USD to Safran or Miotshubishi, our kaveri with 52 KN/90 KN been flying today. They take more time to negotiate a deal than what it would take to develop a product. They are negotiating doe Kaveri 2.0 for over a decade but development has not started yet. Antony asked IN to take a call on new aircraft carrier. In more than a decade, even requirements are not freezed forget about specification. Sare incompetent aur Harami log baithe hai. Are bhai tum se nahi hota hai to TATA, Kalyani aur L& T to somp do na. Look at the example of K9 Vajra, Joravar etc. World class products delivered before time.


*AMCA II with TVC was planned in 2025* read as 2035.

Irrespective of what your or my take on this whole defence sector is, there are certain undeniable factors that influenced why it is in the state it is today. I am just numbering the points you raised above in my below post separately.

1. Absolute 100% import dependency was the Govt chosen policy for multiple decades since the 1950, count it and we will get a habit of 7-8 decades prior as minimum. Impossible to change this over a stable Govt ruling for the last 10-12 years.

2. Defence industry is considered as extremely sensitive and the Govt want to maintain 100% tight control over it. Private industry participation was actively discouraged and simply denied outright with mindset of I will not let a pvt co set up defence related activity, only psus will do the work. That is equivalent to trying to breathe in CO2 environment.

3. Today suddenly the Govt says pvt industry welcome, but the joomla exist and we see so many example of white label, still most biz flow into psu, some psu actively lobby successfully against competing in open tenders ie monopoly practice.

4. Even if we consider the GoI of today is actively encouraging pvt sector to take up major investment, why would the govt fed ecosystem of officials would suddenly let go of their control? Everywhere there are defence hubs, you can go and find that all of the small mid or big defence biz co have their own contact within the rank of govt officials who have fostered a self serving motto of bribing , slow work pace culture, ripe corruption right from small rank to higher up. Every single Govt, MoD, even military services too, MES & CCE are prime example. This whole clan would push back against any Govt led effort like the DRDO reform.

So given the vast stake at play from multiple stakeholders, there is 100% chance that an ideal scenario will never emerge, neither the Govt not the powerful official lobby nor the psu industries associated with this will let it happen. But if a judgement day like situation comes, they will have to look for a solution themselves and so far a nuclear option as deterrent is the sole such option the Govt rely on and will keep it sharp enough to save own backside first (with a logic that if I survive, the country will too).

The point here is to not ever look to join a race we are not fit for or built for as a country & industrial capability, capacity or mentality. We can not join an arms race competition with continuous niche scientific technological progress with countries far ahead of us (Yet). A lot of defence followers I see want to do just that despite never even working in this sector. All they have is visit to defexpo, take pics and argue with foreign people over social media and moan about blackpilled state of domestic MIC not helping them argue properly. That is just childish.

What you have listed are excuses? Before we make MWF operational, China would have been flying 6th Generation plane. Japan has shown. US said that they are flying their 6th Generation plane for 4 years. How would we catch up with current ecosystem comprising of corrupt Politicians, inefficient public sectors, Lazy babus and lengthy anti development SOPs.
 
Some times back, we were developing fourth generation fighter so as China.
That sometime is now ~2 decades back.
Chinese J10 entered service in 2003.

J10 with chinese aesa entered service in 2018.

J20 entered service in 2017.

Now newer j20 with RAS skin like f35, and gan aesa just entered service this year.
Along with j35.

While in pure tech field we may not be much behind in gan aesa tech.

But In operational and industrial setting our domestic GaAs aesa hasn't even entered service, even though development is complete.

Now the GaAs aesa uttam we have is more advance than 1st gen gaAs aesa of chinese in 2018.
But again it hasn't entered service.


If we're just talking about pure tech field.
We are not that much behind, except certain areas like jet engines( chinese jet engines with early 5th gen performance are noe getting operational in service).
But we are lot more behind in industrial aspect and operationalization.
Which happens after based technical aspects are developed.


And in all these years what we have ignored most is industrial and operational aspect.
With lack of orders, lack of iterative development, and sometimes peacemeal orders only.


The airframe difference between this newer j20s /j20A compared to the original j20, is similar difference between f22 and f35 in terms of materials and architecture.
Along with new better engines, and more advanced avionics.

These newer j20s and j20a can be said to be entirely new stealth jet based on same design as original j20.

Kinda like difference between j16 and original j11 both based on su27/su30
 
Last edited: