Analysis War game: Next India-Pakistan conflict

[RationalGuy]

No. Blood and gore is different then hoodlism and civil force. Radicals are trained in madrassas, mentally for this.
Even in 2002, switch the sides at godhra station. And then imagine the scale of riots. It will be far more than what you saw. Hindus have given up on the sword a long time ago. Few exceptions won't change the things.

And this is w/o factoring in the insiders.

Lol no. Maybe you guys gave up on the sword. Kanhaiya Lal was brutally killed in your state but no retaliation. Come to KA especially coastal KA where RSS and Bajrang Dal is very strong and see how Hindus are.

2002 wasn't some ordinary riots dude. It was a coordinated, one sided massacre. They burned our people yes, but we literally mass raped and butchered many innocent women and children on their side in the most cruel fashion. I don't think you have read some of the things that happened, its literally blood curling. And 2002 wasn't the only time when Hindus organized into a coordinated force. 1992 Babri Masjid, heck even 1984 riots showed Hindus can very quickly take organized coordinated action when they are incited.

Hindus are very capable of violence if we are pushed and incited. In anyways it's hard to incite us but once that happens there's no stopping us. There's a trope which you exemplify, of us being an innocent holy cow like people who are under threat from the Islamic beast, but the reality is far more nuanced and different. The people who took part in 2002 from our side weren't "mentally trained" for it either but it didnt take them long to cut to pieces the "mentally trained" people .

 

[Subgradewalker]

Lol no. Maybe you guys gave up on the sword. Kanhaiya Lal was brutally killed in your state but no retaliation. Come to KA especially coastal KA where RSS and Bajrang Dal is very strong and see how Hindus are.

2002 wasn't some ordinary riots dude. It was a coordinated, one sided massacre. They burned our people yes, but we literally mass raped and butchered many innocent women and children on their side in the most cruel fashion. I don't think you have read some of the things that happened, its literally blood curling. And 2002 wasn't the only time when Hindus organized into a coordinated force. 1992 Babri Masjid, heck even 1984 riots showed Hindus can very quickly take organized coordinated action when they are incited.

Hindus are very capable of violence if we are pushed and incited. In anyways it's hard to incite us but once that happens there's no stopping us. There's a trope which you exemplify, of us being an innocent holy cow like people who are under threat from the Islamic beast, but the reality is far more nuanced and different. The people who took part in 2002 from our side weren't "mentally trained" for it either but it didnt take them long to cut to pieces the "mentally trained" people .

Lots of difference between 2002 and now. Bollywood+western tv+ leftist under garb of liberalism have dented the capacity in young generation to pick up sword for a united cause.
As compared to muslims.

Yes Kanhaiya Lal episode and muted response + kamlesh tiwari + dozens of cases where hindus were targeted.
In bengal, if hindus had the anger and force.. they would be out on streets already. Every month there's a new targeted attack on hindus, especially in areas where they crossed the majority mark.

Then you've got hindus who are happy being clubbed with muslims as M-Y VoteBank. So, no.. things are not as in 2002 and we are severely weakened as a united force. Meanwhile a Muslim in Karnataka will go to roots for palestine, let alone indian dtate

 

[RationalGuy]

Lots of difference between 2002 and now. Bollywood+western tv+ leftist under garb of liberalism have dented the capacity in young generation to pick up sword for a united cause.
As compared to muslims.

Yes Kanhaiya Lal episode and muted response + kamlesh tiwari + dozens of cases where hindus were targeted.
In bengal, if hindus had the anger and force.. they would be out on streets already. Every month there's a new targeted attack on hindus, especially in areas where they crossed the majority mark.

Then you've got hindus who are happy being clubbed with muslims as M-Y VoteBank. So, no.. things are not as in 2002 and we are severely weakened as a united force. Meanwhile a Muslim in Karnataka will go to roots for palestine, let alone indian dtate

Bro current events have made us even more ready for blood or at least the Hindus I know. In KA mullahs killed a BJP leader like 2-3 years ago, as a result 2 other muslims were killed within 2-3 days. Its a tit for tat conflict especially in the coastal areas. Maybe Hindus in your state are more docile but you can't apply the same to other Hindus especially the Hindus I have met from UP Bihar, they can and will take up the sword if necessary. We are very diverse you can't make assumptions on entire Hindu community based on actions of few Hindus from xyz region. Heck even Tamil Hindus will take the sword if they feel their temples and heritage are threatened.

Don't scroll twitter and make assumptions on +1 billion Hindus. Hindutva is so strong now that even US born Hindus I've seen are not so absent mided and docile as you think. The world is moving towards confrontation and hostility between countries and ethnic groups and we Hindus are also preparing of that there is no doubt.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Bro current events have made us even more ready for blood or at least the Hindus I know. In KA mullahs killed a BJP leader like 2-3 years ago, as a result 2 other muslims were killed within 2-3 days. Its a tit for tat conflict especially in the coastal areas. Maybe Hindus in your state are more docile but you can't apply the same to other Hindus especially the Hindus I have met from UP Bihar, they can and will take up the sword if necessary. We are very diverse you can't make assumptions on entire Hindu community based on actions of few Hindus from xyz region. Heck even Tamil Hindus will take the sword if they feel their temples and heritage are threatened.

Don't scroll twitter and make assumptions on +1 billion Hindus. Hindutva is so strong now that even US born Hindus I've seen are not so absent mided and docile as you think. The world is moving towards confrontation and hostility between countries and ethnic groups and we Hindus are also preparing of that there is no doubt.

I haven't opened twitter in years now dude .. It's pathetic there.

I am giving you rationale based on what I see happening all over India. Hinduism has already been co-opted for decades now. Why do you think non Hindus were often instated as member of overseeing authority for Hindu temples and orgs.
Leftist & muslims keep hindu names solely for purpose of deluding the call for Action.

Even in Karnataka.. what actually is happening? Congress is openly doing what it does. M-Y factor is popular in UP & Bihar.. two very crucial heritage regions for hindus. That's spilling over rajasthan too. One or two groups can't save the culture when mass has been mentally converted already.

Hindu isn't just about being against muslims.. it's about culture. Following traditions without superstition and tainted practices from 1000+ years of suppression. How many of people you talk to will actually risk anything rather than get co-opted or take the first flight.

Then comes the leaders of Hindu community... Most of the so called leaders and pundits have become secular and do what they do for money. It will be okay, but what do they spend it on? For every rupees spent on gaushala.. how much rupees go into culture reinasannce? To go beyond krishna leela.. and talk about adharma vs dharma beyond trends..

One or two leaders aren't enough when most of Hindu scholars and leaders have to fend for themselves and can't focus on social work much. While madrassas & offshoots get state funding on top of informal funding from gulf.
Even today, just giving up control on Hindu temples won't be enough... Cause the current temple leaders sitting at top are no more within the network of temples.

A fight for culture is much much bigger than few tit for tat incidents. Christians have got vatican as spiritual capital while US,UK and others back it through numerous means. Islam has mecca and gulf nations to back it.

Jews are fighting for jerusalem as we speak. It's not just about hamas.. it's about their existence of Jewish civilisation.

For all the hunky dory narrative that Hinduism is the only culture they couldn't breach... Hinduism is nowhere near it's roots today. We have lost scriptures, gurukul traditions, sadhus have been villified by bollywood and the likes of baba we all know.

The culture has very little foundation left.. leave identity as hindus.. people won't stand up for their identity as an "Indian" even. When national anthem becomes topic of debate, whats the expectations you can have from the generation? Islam can wait for the old generation to decay while younger generation is all about naive-ity and ignorance.

Sure, there's still resistance , but for how long? Even if they just stood up for India, it would be fine. But sadly..

What you described is the absolute minority. TamilNadu have already seen decay of Hindu rights. Going to a temple alone won't save culture. Just the fact that DMK has rampant authority there is enough to tell you the state of mentality of people there. If they're okay with leaders who diss our culture openly.. yeah, we know the result.

These 5-10 years will decide the path of Hindu culture. And northeast the first frontier. If Himanta looses Assam for any reason.. time for you come out of false security. Just earn and enjoy and die peacefully.

 

[RationalGuy]

I haven't opened twitter in years now dude .. It's pathetic there.

I am giving you rationale based on what I see happening all over India. Hinduism has already been co-opted for decades now. Why do you think non Hindus were often instated as member of overseeing authority for Hindu temples and orgs.
Leftist & muslims keep hindu names solely for purpose of deluding the call for Action.

Even in Karnataka.. what actually is happening? Congress is openly doing what it does. M-Y factor is popular in UP & Bihar.. two very crucial heritage regions for hindus. That's spilling over rajasthan too. One or two groups can't save the culture when mass has been mentally converted already.

Hindu isn't just about being against muslims.. it's about culture. Following traditions without superstition and tainted practices from 1000+ years of suppression. How many of people you talk to will actually risk anything rather than get co-opted or take the first flight.

Then comes the leaders of Hindu community... Most of the so called leaders and pundits have become secular and do what they do for money. It will be okay, but what do they spend it on? For every rupees spent on gaushala.. how much rupees go into culture reinasannce? To go beyond krishna leela.. and talk about adharma vs dharma beyond trends..

One or two leaders aren't enough when most of Hindu scholars and leaders have to fend for themselves and can't focus on social work much. While madrassas & offshoots get state funding on top of informal funding from gulf.
Even today, just giving up control on Hindu temples won't be enough... Cause the current temple leaders sitting at top are no more within the network of temples.

A fight for culture is much much bigger than few tit for tat incidents. Christians have got vatican as spiritual capital while US,UK and others back it through numerous means. Islam has mecca and gulf nations to back it.

Jews are fighting for jerusalem as we speak. It's not just about hamas.. it's about their existence of Jewish civilisation.

For all the hunky dory narrative that Hinduism is the only culture they couldn't breach... Hinduism is nowhere near it's roots today. We have lost scriptures, gurukul traditions, sadhus have been villified by bollywood and the likes of baba we all know.

The culture has very little foundation left.. leave identity as hindus.. people won't stand up for their identity as an "Indian" even. When national anthem becomes topic of debate, whats the expectations you can have from the generation? Islam can wait for the old generation to decay while younger generation is all about naive-ity and ignorance.

Sure, there's still resistance , but for how long? Even if they just stood up for India, it would be fine. But sadly..

What you described is the absolute minority. TamilNadu have already seen decay of Hindu rights. Going to a temple alone won't save culture. Just the fact that DMK has rampant authority there is enough to tell you the state of mentality of people there. If they're okay with leaders who diss our culture openly.. yeah, we know the result.

These 5-10 years will decide the path of Hindu culture. And northeast the first frontier. If Himanta looses Assam for any reason.. time for you come out of false security. Just earn and enjoy and die peacefully.

A lot of word salad which I dont have the patience to read. Literally everyone in this world thinks they are under attack and that their culture has degraded. The Christians think this, the Muslims think this, Hindus and as do the Jews. Some ultra orthodox Jews even support destruction of Israel because they believe Jews can only go back after "2nd Messiah" comes lol.

Vast majority of Jews haven't read the Torah they dont follow their religion as prescribed but it still survives. As for Hindusim it is timeless to say it will be washed way is so silly. Hinduism is very different than Christianity and Islam we have 1000s of our own Meccas and Vatican buddy, we are unbelievably vast and diverse in belief and thought compared to these silly religions and always have been to say we are under threat is silly. They only have Mecca and Vaticwn we have Ayodhya, Benaras, Rameshwaram, Badrinath, Somthan, Rishikesh, Haridwar, Dwarka, etc etc etc. We have 100x more "spiritual capitals " than Abrahamics.

In Karnataka Christians and Muslims attempted to touch our own Mecca the Shri Manjunatha temple in Dharmasthala but they failed miserably even DK Shivakumar deputy CM in Congress squashed their attempts because he himself is a huge devotee of the temple. Regardless of political sides some things are red line for all Hindus.

We Hindus never needed a leader like a Pope. Our decentralization is our strength. Hinduism is like water we always evolve with keeping ancient traditions like Vedic chanting etc. So what if gurukuls are gone? Gurukuls are no match for modern education with scientific focus. We left the gurukul for the school and that's why we landed on the moon while fundamentalist Muslims stayed in their madrassas to produce terrorists. We evolved and adapted!!!

As for Indian identity dude leave in India in US i have seen patriotic and worried Indians who always keep up to date with India and care about the country. It seems to me you are living in 2000s era when nobody cared about being Indian or Hindu but now 99% of the Indian Hindus i meet are proud of their heritage and the civilizational legacy of Hindusim. In US there are literal Hindu orgs in all universities where young Hindus get together and learn about Indian history etc. You vastly underestimate the pride we have on our country and way of life. +1.0 billion people there will be a variety of people, you can't say all or even 20% of them are chomus who dont care.

You talk about co opted or first flight bs. You think Hindus will just run away at the sight of trouble? You dont think we will fight back??? Idk how you got such a low opinion of us. We will shake the world if we are tested!!!! My God I didnt expect you to have such a defeatist attitude .

You are to Hinduism what @Hydra is to Indian geopolitics

 

[_Anonymous_]

China collapsing into 3-4 countries? Civil war in India? Frankly your situations are fantastical.

Why don't you educate yourself on Chinese history for a change like for instance when & how did the current boundaries of the people's republic of China come into being & how ? Whom did the CCP replace & how ? What was the situation in China then ? What were it's then geographical limits ?

How did transitions happen in China across time from one dynasty to another like from the Yuan to the Ming to the Qing to the Kuomintang for a brief period then the CCP ? How did those transitions affect the geographical boundaries ?

Moreover the CCP isn't the monolith it portrays to the entire world ? It just doesn't let any organisation rise beyond a point . That's at the heart of the reasons the CCP keeps asserting control over the PLA .

Hence it stands to reason that once push comes to shove by which I mean the outcome of a Sino US war over Taiwan going against China , the split will come from within like it did with the CCP in the USSR which saw a dissolution of the state into various constituents we see today - all sovereign independent nation states .

Bangladeshi are a threat in WB and NE. Elsewhere they dont stand a chance. In any so called civil war between Hindus and Muslims it will be a one sided massacre and the side being massacred aren't going to be the Hindus. We totally dominate the government, military, police services along eith having pretty potent groups such as the VHP, RSS, Bajrang Dal etc. Before anyone here accuses other of being soft or something I implore you to remember 2002 Gujarat where the VHP and RSS were so brutal and inflicted the most amazing cruelties on Muslims. If the Bangladeshis attempt to act up elsewhere in India especially in RSS/Bajrang Dal strongholds such as UP, Karnataka, Gujarat, MH they will be very badly and publicly massacred along with any Muslim who may choose to join them.

The real threat are one off large scale terrorist attacks sponsored by ISI sleeper cells from BD and Nepal.

I don't think you can tell difference between riots & a civil war . Or between the present or the future . Look to what happened around 1947 or 1989 in Kashmir.

In any case that post wasn't meant for you . The person whom it was meant for got what I wanted to convey.

Bruh. If we bomb Karachi and their oil depots, even with Saudi support they can't even fight for 2 weeks. Because how the hell will Saudi ships deposite oil to them? And how exactly they plan to fight without oil? Lol.

 

[Subgradewalker]

You are to Hinduism what @Hydra is to Indian geopolitics

Ouch

You talk about co opted or first flight bs. You think Hindus will just run away at the sight of trouble? You dont think we will fight back??? Idk how you got such a low opinion of us. We will shake the world if we are tested!!!!

You missed the point of importance with vatican & Mecca. It's about in time of clashes, not peace when a spiritual command becomes important. To rally and gather.



But to keep this short.. are things dire? Yes. Can we survive the threat of simultaneous uprising, relying on present way of doing things? Absolutely not. Can things be better if systematically improved? Yeah.

So what if gurukuls are gone? Gurukuls are no match for modern education with scientific focus. We left the gurukul for the school and that's why we landed on the moon while fundamentalist Muslims stayed in their madrassas to produce terrorists. We evolved and adapted!!!

Gurukul is not about abandoning science! See, this is what I am talking about. When the first reference to gurukul makes you associate it with some anti scientific institution. Gurukuls too like Sanatan are capable of evolving and adapting to the needs of the world. You can't delink them and hope for paradise.
Modern education system ≠ science.
If you want I can categorically describe gurukul and their importance in providing our culture a solid foundation vs what we are fed in the garb of modern education system! It's about the process.

And it's not just madrassa but other religious "minority" have freedom to establish their own schools with substantial benefits provided to them. Why would that have been done if there were no linkages b/w culture and educational institutions.

Rational guy.. the problem runs very deep and fighting back only when other is at your neck vs fortifying the culture and deter others.. is different.
What you're talking about is human instinct to survive.. not a cultural instinct we need now.

Go through history of how christians and islam spread. If they could destroy civilisation and convert masses in those time.. the current age of influence ops might be the final nail in coffin for hinduism as a force to reckon with. While you idealize in the decentralised nature of Hinduism.. they are making coordinated efforts to target your culture from all angles and geography. And no unified organisation, breaking the barriers of north-south-east-west.. is stopping from the concentrated efforts we need. RSS is the thing which comes close and hence you see it being villified and targeted every other day.
RSS itself needs itself to fortify itself and invest in some counter info warfare.

Another word salad for you. Ironically, the word aptly represents the present state of Hinduism too.

 

[_Anonymous_]

We are talking on the same scenario but different stages. Times like these makes me wish we had a DM feature.

Agreed. You're describing the immediate future whereas I was taking the long term view. Either way the idea that Paxtan in it's current form needs to be extinguished is unanimous. Beyond that , as of now there's little we can do .

 

[Subgradewalker]

In Karnataka Christians and Muslims attempted to touch our own Mecca the Shri Manjunatha temple in Dharmasthala but they failed miserably even DK Shivakumar deputy CM in Congress squashed their attempts because he himself is a huge devotee of the temple.

And how much of it resonated with hindus in other part of nation? Hence the lack of central node.

Just the nature of discussion where you say that maybe hindus in your area aren't proactive but it's different here in KA.. points to the missing link I am talking about. If for you, it's not a worry that your own people in different state are finding it hard to develop a conscience.. is reason it's become so easy to coopt hindus.
They are coming at you from different geography at different times. So, a issue in WB doesn't mean much in KA beyond SM.. When issue in KA arises, the hindus in WB won't care either.
And so they will keep you strangled. While even converted muslims fight for palestine and cry about incident in europe.

DK being a devotee to shows the prowess of Hinduism? .. it's politics. Otherwise if, for DK it's only a matter of concern when it comes to one temple, but it's okay when it comes to sabrimala.. you're deluding yourself and have already lost the plot here. RIP.

 

[screambowl]

Will Pak get some kind of upgraded offensive weapons from China/Turkey this time?

I think from west they will get something. These frequent visits to appease Trump by Munira and his Chamcha Sharif is not a normal thing.

 

[Defc0n]

I think from west they will get something. These frequent visits to appease Trump by Munira and his Chamcha Sharif is not a normal thing.

West giving Pak offensive systems is but unlikely, but yeah, I will not rule this out. But, if Pak gets offensive weapons that they use against India, that’s the end of whatever sliver of a chance USA has at salvaging the relationship post Trump’s term! Hypothetically, what offensive systems can west give to Pak? HIMARS or similar?

 

[Defc0n]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1972122991657107833

Pakistanis are getting anxious? They want things to go up so badly!

 

[Sathya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1972122991657107833

Pakistanis are getting anxious? They want things to go up so badly!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1972121732296454303

^^ Reliable source ?

 

[South block]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1972121732296454303

^^ Reliable source ?

No

 

[screambowl]

Hypothetically, what offensive systems can west give to Pak? HIMARS or similar?

F16 upgrade, gear for infantry, some satellite support, it's vast.

 

[Defc0n]

F16 upgrade, gear for infantry, some satellite support, it's vast.

Satellite support they got this time too if I am not wrong. Gear for infantry will be largely inconsequential in my opinion. The Viper upgrades could cause some problems to us (especially if Meteor is still MIA)! Also I wonder, Vipers are also usable in a ground attack role - what can US provide Pak in terms of offensive system (unlikely, but not impossible in the current situation and context). My original question still stands — what can Pakistan use to counter Brahmos — something that they can have a guarantee that we cannot intercept without using up their life time stockpiles I.e. without depending on the number of vectors used to saturate our ADS during the attack. Brahmos gives us that one-shot-one-kill type of capability which I guess Pakistan doesn’t have today!

Also, is this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1972524749541810214

The start of something?

 

[Defc0n]

Satellite support they got this time too if I am not wrong. Gear for infantry will be largely inconsequential in my opinion. The Viper upgrades could cause some problems to us (especially if Meteor is still MIA)! Also I wonder, Vipers are also usable in a ground attack role - what can US provide Pak in terms of offensive system (unlikely, but not impossible in the current situation and context). My original question still stands — what can Pakistan use to counter Brahmos — something that they can have a guarantee that we cannot intercept without using up their life time stockpiles I.e. without depending on the number of vectors used to saturate our ADS during the attack. Brahmos gives us that one-shot-one-kill type of capability which I guess Pakistan doesn’t have today!

Also, is this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1972524749541810214

The start of something?

And it continues —

https://twitter.com/x/status/1972603799224381707

https://twitter.com/x/status/1972594492684542240

 

[screambowl]

My original question still stands — what can Pakistan use to counter Brahmos — something that they can have a guarantee that we cannot intercept without using up their life time stockpiles I.e. without depending on the number of vectors used to saturate our ADS during the attack. Brahmos gives us that one-shot-one-kill type of capability which I guess Pakistan doesn’t have today!

https://www.moneycontrol.com/world/after-munir-trump-meeting-pakistan-s-air-chief-visits-us-why-india-should-watch-closely-article-13224336.html

Reports suggest that Pakistan is seeking to upgrade its air force with advanced US military platforms, including F-16 Block 70 jets, AIM-7 Sparrow missiles, air defence systems, and possibly HIMARS rocket launchers, sources said. The move comes amid growing doubts over the reliability of Chinese weapons.

It was clear after Op Sindoor that they won't rely much on the Chinese weapons.

 

[Defc0n]

https://www.moneycontrol.com/world/after-munir-trump-meeting-pakistan-s-air-chief-visits-us-why-india-should-watch-closely-article-13224336.html

It was clear after Op Sindoor that they won't rely much on the Chinese weapons.

Yep, on expected lines. However, from a capability perspective what does the said systems provide Pakistan?

F16 Block 70 brings EW suite updates and sensor fusion (majorly useful if you have a networked system with F-35s or similar in the mix). I don’t see this being a game changer.

OTOH, HIMARS and/or ATACMS can be troublesome for India, I am not fully sure if it can provide a guaranteed strike capability to Pakistan - I believe it can be intercepted but does pose significant problems due it being mobile in nature and will definitely perform better than their Fatah series of junk.

I have a feeling that US might send some anti-awac missile systems to Pak to ensure that they can keep our AWACS out of the game.

Finally, I am fairly certain that Pakistan will look to China and/or Turkey for offensive capabilities and US giving them HIMARS or ATACMS is super low.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Yep, on expected lines. However, from a capability perspective what does the said systems provide Pakistan?

F16 Block 70 brings EW suite updates and sensor fusion (majorly useful if you have a networked system with F-35s or similar in the mix). I don’t see this being a game changer.

OTOH, HIMARS and/or ATACMS can be troublesome for India, I am not fully sure if it can provide a guaranteed strike capability to Pakistan - I believe it can be intercepted but does pose significant problems due it being mobile in nature and will definitely perform better than their Fatah series of junk.

I have a feeling that US might send some anti-awac missile systems to Pak to ensure that they can keep our AWACS out of the game.

Finally, I am fairly certain that Pakistan will look to China and/or Turkey for offensive capabilities and US giving them HIMARS or ATACMS is super low.

Why does people forget the chinese angle. Any system will come under direct operational control/ oversight by USF. Otherwise , it's just giving away trade secrets to chinese .

If Chinese incursion doesn't mean to them , They might just build a US foreign base in Pakistan by that development, as an alternative to bagram base. Again, china will be definitely irked by such moves.

Second, china being main US rival.. will it allow advanced weapons stationed in pakistan under US oversight? An increasingly unpredictable and moral less pak?

I doubt that chinese haven't kept strict watch on ISI and any attempts in uhigyur . They are cautious that way