LCA AF Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

Kiduva21 said:
IMO availability of 414 will be much better as SOKO or sweden has no problem getting them. until recently Boeing used to produce 100+ FA18s a year which means 200+ 414 engines a year.
if GE puts mind they can deliver All 414 in just 2 years.
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There is no issue with F414 supply chain. The issue is specific to F404-GE-IN20.

Kiduva21 said:
the real issue is Co-producing 414, US will never allow even a tiny bit of tech transfer or co-producing of the engine.
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US is open to co-production. Which is the entire point of the F414 deal. They dont have to allow it. Its not like we have other options.

Kiduva21 said:
which puts us in back in the Indo - french engine. Since we need to convince the french we need to buy 114 rafale to seal the engine deal. else they could walk of the engine deal.
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Again not true at all. Engine co-development in the current form was offered in 2018-19. They need funding for engine development. It will be even more critical when FCAS is collapsing. We were actually making them compete with RR.
 
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I don't buy this notion we need to replace our entire fleet of medium weight fighters with mid fourth generation only
We have three types in this weight class
IE mig29 mirage 2000 and Jaguar Some 200 planes
Why we buying
Why we not replacing them with both 4th Gen and 5th generation combination

What is wrong with
60su57 84 more su30mki super
160 Mki standards
120 Rafales in total or 84 more
180Tejas mk1

My worry is that when India almost bank rupts itself buying Rafales Mki upgrades and Tejas at 50 billion total cost

Pakistan will. Acquire fifth generation genuinev
40J35 lease deal china pl17 bvrs
40 more J10 with pl15
Upgrade falcons for free with amraam.D

Without spending a dime
And have technology edge in small. Skirmishes
 
Ashwin said:
US is open to co-production. Which is the entire point of the F414 deal. They dont have to allow it. Its not like we have other options.
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in US order chain some where some one will block it, in today's scenario even Trump will block it saying "it is taking away American jobs". What are the other options? speaking of other options any change in engine will further delay the project by at-least 4-5 years.
Ashwin said:
Again not true at all. Engine co-development in the current form was offered in 2018-19. They need funding for engine development. It will be even more critical when FCAS is collapsing. We were actually making them compete with RR.
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Why did not we sign the deal then? too much cost? or they wanted more orders for Rafale? IIRC even if the Indo-french engine is developed it will not be used by any french jet. Probably they take it as a learning opportunity.
 
Harpy1 said:
I don't buy this notion we need to replace our entire fleet of medium weight fighters with mid fourth generation only
We have three types in this weight class
IE mig29 mirage 2000 and Jaguar Some 200 planes
Why we buying
Why we not replacing them with both 4th Gen and 5th generation combination

What is wrong with
60su57 84 more su30mki super
160 Mki standards
120 Rafales in total or 84 more
180Tejas mk1

My worry is that when India almost bank rupts itself buying Rafales Mki upgrades and Tejas at 50 billion total cost

Pakistan will. Acquire fifth generation genuinev
40J35 lease deal china pl17 bvrs
40 more J10 with pl15
Upgrade falcons for free with amraam.D

Without spending a dime
And have technology edge in small. Skirmishes
Click to expand...
DestinationExport Value (Goods + Services)% Share of India’s Total Exports
Total exportsUS$ 820.93 billion (IndBiz | Economic Diplomacy Division)
To USAUS$ 86.51 billion (IndBiz | Economic Diplomacy Division)~ 10.5% (86.51 / 820.93)
To RussiaUS$ 4.88 billion (India Brand Equity Foundation)~ 0.6% (4.88 / 820.93)
Rest of WorldUS$ (820.93 − 86.51 − 4.88) = ~ US$ 729.54 billion~ 88.9%

why we can't get Su57, sanctions and secondary sanctions.
unlike Oil which we buy and sell to keep the price low. or the s400 bought before war.
Buying su 57 while the Ukraine war is raging will defensively upset the west . our 99.4% export goes to west or west controlled world. A sanction at this point will ruin our economy.
Iran is surviving because they sell oil to China , we don't have oil to sell to China.
 
Kiduva21 said:
Why did not we sign the deal then? too much cost? or they wanted more orders for Rafale? IIRC even if the Indo-french engine is developed it will not be used by any french jet. Probably they take it as a learning opportunity.
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To be honest bro.. I don't think we care of french will use it or not. Point is it should meet our requirements, so we can use it. And not only use it but innovate and work on it further.
And 7B tag is okay, only if there's a whole engine complex developed with every infra needed for developing an engine. ( Not series manufacturing)
We are the one who needs it more. The fact that french might build engine ecosystem in India will be a big deal. But everything hinges on the actual deal and fine prints.
So far, there's just few sentences spoken. Feels like it's more to pressure GTRE than actual deal as of now.
I won't even get into private or public sector debate. Need an engine. The world is becoming too volatile and too hostile to be dependent foreign such critical tech.
 
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Kiduva21 said:
in US order chain some where some one will block it, in today's scenario even Trump will block it saying "it is taking away American jobs". What are the other options? speaking of other options any change in engine will further delay the project by at-least 4-5 years.
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That's beside the point. Your statement that they don't want to share any tech is wrong.

Kiduva21 said:
Why did not we sign the deal then? too much cost? or they wanted more orders for Rafale? IIRC even if the Indo-french engine is developed it will not be used by any french jet. Probably they take it as a learning opportunity.
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Are you new to indian defence or something? Everything takes decades to decide and we write eulogy on what could have been. Thats our thing.

The French may not want the end product. They get to do all kinds of R&D and prove technology with our money.
 
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It seems the L&T-BEL combo and the whosoever comes next might get a shot at some kind of role in this project as well. All of this depends on the kind of winds that are blowing in the MoD.
 
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Work has been ongoing for nearly a year for the local production part & areas of supply chain establishment as part of ToT (we like it or not tech transfer is a big thing high level people involved take very seriously). There is no discussion or interest in a mk2 engine from elsewhere as of now as per most of the stakeholders tell us. HAL Midhani PTC AZAD all of them are clear so far on this.

Related to mk2 , here

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Everyone's put to milk india.. wtf is govt doing.
Just cancel ( on hold for eternity) it already and put all that money into KDE & Kaveri 2.0..
As if mk2 is coming anytime soon.
Who is advising the govt 🤬
 
I probably have enough material to start some baseless rumour just to see how many people get emotionally affected by it. Cost escalation in a volatile market condition esp the recovering aerospace sector is some issue that can be common. Since F-414 local mfg is not signed yet the broader aspects are to be ironed out in the current discussion that is going on. Very normal for the cost negotiation process.
 
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marich01 said:
I probably have enough material to start some baseless rumour just to see how many people get emotionally affected by it. Cost escalation in a volatile market condition esp the recovering aerospace sector is some issue that can be common. Since F-414 local mfg is not signed yet the broader aspects are to be ironed out in the current discussion that is going on. Very normal for the cost negotiation process.
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It's been 3-4 years. There's a difference between actual budget revision and profiteering by taking advantage of changing geopolitics.
And it's not like that analyst sitting at LM are that dumb that they have to revise the cost every now and then... Especially given that the production is supposed to be happening in an already cost effective nation like India
 
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LMAO NO. The GE414 produced in india will be costlier compared to the one produced in the US simply because of economies of scale. GE were producing 100s of 414 and are still producing a shit ton of 414s for many nations. cheap labour doesnt work the same way here as it does it other things
Subgradewalker said:
It's been 3-4 years. There's a difference between actual budget revision and profiteering by taking advantage of changing geopolitics.
And it's not like that analyst sitting at LM are that dumb that they have to revise the cost every now and then... Especially given that the production is supposed to be happening in an already cost effective nation like India
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lmaoxd said:
LMAO NO. The GE414 produced in india will be costlier compared to the one produced in the US simply because of economies of scale. GE were producing 100s of 414 and are still producing a shit ton of 414s for many nations. cheap labour doesnt work the same way here as it does it other things
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It's not about cheap labor. But difference in PPP. If you're gonna set up an engine complex in india.. won't you be buying from local vendors? Not just to build the engine but building the facilities that builds them.

Like when you say ToT.. it will only be effective when that 80% is free of foreign dependence.. or is it calculated differently?
Price revision makes sense only if HAL is demanding more than the MoU signed on. If that's the case then more reason to just let it hold and fund kaveri with pvt players. let HAL be HAL
 
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