Pic from 2020. INS Chakra II & INS Arihant at SBC Vizag.
Arihant-class SSBN - News & Discussions
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@Parthu @Rajput Lion @randomradio Indira Gandhi had approved the Indian nuclear submarine project even before the 1971 War, although it became the ATV project in 1984 apparently.
BARC was having tremendous difficulties wtr to miniautrizing the nuclear reactor meant for the ATV, so an agreement was made with the Soviets where they did indeed help us with the reactors design and even offered to send technicians to help build it:
BARCs decision to use enriched uranium is interesting. The same book says that India had great difficulty in setting up the Dhruva reactor which was then meant to be our primary source of weapons grade plutonium, so we decided to make bombs made out of uranium as a back up as well, and set up the Rare Minerals Plant in Mysore to enrich weapons grade uranium in the 1970s or 80s iirc. We now have a much larger facility at Challakere which enriches uranium for our submarine and nuclear weapons program.
Anyways with respect to the nuclear submarine program, through it had the political support, the Navy was totally against it in the start with a closed mindset.
Ngl, in my humble opinion, Pereira was retarded.
BARC was having tremendous difficulties wtr to miniautrizing the nuclear reactor meant for the ATV, so an agreement was made with the Soviets where they did indeed help us with the reactors design and even offered to send technicians to help build it:
BARCs decision to use enriched uranium is interesting. The same book says that India had great difficulty in setting up the Dhruva reactor which was then meant to be our primary source of weapons grade plutonium, so we decided to make bombs made out of uranium as a back up as well, and set up the Rare Minerals Plant in Mysore to enrich weapons grade uranium in the 1970s or 80s iirc. We now have a much larger facility at Challakere which enriches uranium for our submarine and nuclear weapons program.
Anyways with respect to the nuclear submarine program, through it had the political support, the Navy was totally against it in the start with a closed mindset.
Ngl, in my humble opinion, Pereira was retarded.
Interesting. Did not know about 937.
People who followed the program pretty much have known this to be true for a long time now.
The reason why we leased the original Chakra (Charlie-class) is also tied to this. The ATV's reactor (CLWR-B1) is derived from the VM-4 used on the Charlie. But a lot of people used to believe the Russians built these reactors for us, which is not true as the book also says. We built them entirely ourselves - however, the design is very much derived from Soviet models, and they certainly helped us in validating them.
This cooperation continues today. The CLWR-B2 reactor that would go on our future SSN & SSBN is in all likelihood derived from the OK-650B reactor which is used on the Chakra-II (Akula-class).
I've talked about this before:
These PWRs use enriched uranium only, across the world. I don't know what he's talking about there.
Some use LEU (like France & China), others use HEU. Though within HEU there is a subdivision - about 40-45% enriched which is often called MEU (this is what USSR/Russia & India use) and then you have true HEU which is pretty much weapons-grade at ~95% enriched. Only the US & UK (and in future Australia) use this.
BARC hadn't even made a reactor on land, so to make a submarine reactor that too out of uranium (they were trying to make plutonium land reactors) would've been very hard to do by themselves. The book states that before Soviet help BARC guys came up with 4 designs, all of them were thrashed by the navy, with one failing even basic safety requirements, a failure which made even Indira Gandhi at the time furious.
Real progress on the reactor only seemed to have been made after we got the leased submarine which means only after our scientists likely nosed around the reactor of the leased sub as you said, we mastered marine nuclear propulsion.
BTW regarding the uranium enrichment, a funny but dangerous story is that BARC was transporting some nuclear equipment to their facility at Mysore, but the fools who were transporting it (they were taking it via train) left some of the equipment on the train station!!! The Army had to come and retrieve the nuclear equipment which was just sitting at the train platform for some time as passerbys just went about their day. It was huge news at the time in KA, my father remembers reading about it. Was in the 1990s iirc.
Though not mentioned anywhere but 04 Arihant class SSBN will be our sea based deterrence till 2038s.
It is quite interesting to note that number of S5 subs is always increasing each time a new news comes online. Started from 3 then 4 and now it says 6. The first will surely enter around 2035-37 and then we can expect others subs to join after a gap of 3-5 years. So, by 2050 we can expect all the S5 class subs to join the service.
Arihant class subs will either be retired by then or they will continue to serve along with the S5 class. I don't think we will be converting them to SSGN.
It is quite interesting to note that number of S5 subs is always increasing each time a new news comes online. Started from 3 then 4 and now it says 6. The first will surely enter around 2035-37 and then we can expect others subs to join after a gap of 3-5 years. So, by 2050 we can expect all the S5 class subs to join the service.
Arihant class subs will either be retired by then or they will continue to serve along with the S5 class. I don't think we will be converting them to SSGN.
Arihants are supposed to be maritime deterrent against the big AC package (and there is only one adversary that do it so far). That is why multi packing along with capable of decent speed compared to traditional boomers. Both the vehicle & the goodies are made to work in complete isolation without relying on anything of outside help. Missiles are self contained need no outside input for targeting with absolute top class accuracy, if you want to hit the AC core area you will hit it with 1 meter level precision. The exact role the Soviet sub played in 1971. Deep down our political decision makers know it well at some point of time this moment is going to come given the vast IOC position on two front itself.
S5 class is the big league stuff & nos built will be on par. Arihants gonna serve possibly 50-60 years imo.
S5 class is the big league stuff & nos built will be on par. Arihants gonna serve possibly 50-60 years imo.
Any updates on the loadout planned for S5? Sandeep Unnithan earlier said we were going for 12 tubes. A 200MWe powerplant should surely be able to drive a bigger boat with more silos, I'd imagine.
Nobody knows in public yet. But it is likely 12 tubes, I do not know how the exhaust tubes work in those huge vls unit. I think they will retain the underwater booster propulsion concept somewhat. we have seen picture of the canister, so the sub is also robust enough to withstand launch of 10+ such articles while being submerged.
UK is also reducing its missile tubes from 16 to 12 in its new planned ssbn( though for treaty sake only 8 tubes are armed out of 16 in UK's current ssbn.)
Our Best Look Yet At Britain’s New Dreadnought Class Ballistic Missile Submarine Design
A highly streamlined hull, x-shaped stern, pumpjet propulsion, and conformal missile carriage are all features of the Royal Navy’s forthcoming Dreadnought class SSBN. A highly streamlined hull, x-shaped stern, pumpjet propulsion, and conformal missile carriage are all features of the Royal...
www.twz.com
Also
The U.K. Ministry of Defense has also said in the past that only eight of the 12 tubes on each Dreadnought class will be operational, with the other four being filled with ballast to ensure the boat remains stable.
We need to have 12 SSBN force...... Each with 16 SLBM of Intercontinental range along with 24 to 30 SSN or SSGN force period..... we need to make sure our domination in Indian Ocean remain unchallenged for eternity.
Bro.. let us have the four minimum required for 24/7X365 days minimum credible deterrence.
By the time 12 SSBNs ( hypothetical/if they come) gets operational.. india might not need to worry Indian Ocean but fight it out in further international waters for resources
We need 3 minimum technically for all time deterrence, something which will be achieved in 1-2 years. The focus now, should be to actually detect and track missile launches by Pak and China from space using IR satellites. We are using ground based radar for this but it's not enough.
You are looking at ~2050 timeperiod.
Even then, i don't think ssn no. Will cross 20.
SSBNs do not help with sea denial or control. They are for deterrence; we only need minimal numbers as we not exclusively depended on it.
From what I read long ago the plan was something like this - 6 nos SSBNs to cater to the Chinese & 3 nos SSBNs for Paxtan , the idea being at any given point in time you'd have 3 nos SSBNs on patrol mostly in your bastion , 3 nos in the bay & 3 nos undergoing maintenance.
The S-2 was to be converted into a training ship once the S-5 made its debut whereas the others were supposed to be converted to SSGNs once the other boats in the S-5 Avinash class were commissioned.
However if the time taken is what's being projected , I doubt it's going to follow the plan which in any case was drafted way back in the early 2000s.
By 2050 , the S-2 will be 34 years old & the other siblings ~ 25 years old. SSNs & SSBNs typically see 25-35 years of operations. Unlike conventionally powered submarines you can't risk running it for 4-5 decades. The penalties for doing so will be too heavy a price to pay .
So this leaves us open to the task of building up a special class of SSGNs & Sea Wolf type special class of submarines for espionage , counter espionage & special operations.
Hopefully our Naval Planners are alive to this possibility , thinking on those lines & they should be on the drawing board by 2030 .
Retuning to the numbers , IIRC from what I've read then , the idea was a flotilla of 4-6 ACs of varying sizes presumably from 40-70,000 tons of displacement , anywhere between 12-24 nos SSNs & 6-9 SSBNs.
Let's see how many materialise by 2047 assuming that plan is still operative which I doubt.
Picture a multi role submarine taking a priority role in coming decades. Including reconnaissance, hunter and exploration.
Imagine small UUVs and mini subs ( 1-2 crew) coming out of mothersub and going for their tasks. Each fitted for specific role. And work as an extension for mother sub.
Even 3-4 mother subs covering a zone will be nightmare for enemies, especially surface vehicles as the main sub is far away but UUV just decimates you.
Like a deep sea station or Underwater Sub carriers. The tech is there. Need the complex engineering though.
Some small UUVs can act as communication node for surface too for alerts..
Scifi space war like scenes but under water. The era of Oceanic exploration and conquest. Will we finally find a portal to Kaijus
I heard that soviets or USA had a sub with a fckn swimming pool inside.
Imagine small UUVs and mini subs ( 1-2 crew) coming out of mothersub and going for their tasks. Each fitted for specific role. And work as an extension for mother sub.
Even 3-4 mother subs covering a zone will be nightmare for enemies, especially surface vehicles as the main sub is far away but UUV just decimates you.
Like a deep sea station or Underwater Sub carriers. The tech is there. Need the complex engineering though.
Some small UUVs can act as communication node for surface too for alerts..
Scifi space war like scenes but under water. The era of Oceanic exploration and conquest. Will we finally find a portal to Kaijus
I heard that soviets or USA had a sub with a fckn swimming pool inside.
Nowhere I mention that...... Domination would be with SSN & SSGN force along with Nuclear powered Aircraft Carrier in future.
That would be the Soviet Typhoon class SSBN. At nearly 40,000t, she was a beast in her day.