I assumed that for 120kn. Will 140kn also be that size? That's insane thrust to weight ratio
Indo-France Aero Engine Co-Development Program
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Could be.
M88-4 engine being made for f5 is supposed to be same size as current m88.
If true, the engine in terms of raw performance and potential qualifies for 6th gen, even without adaptive cycle tech.
Like f414's peak limit is 120kn with epe varient(still similar size and weight), and f414 is considered a peak of 4th gen engine tech.
The engine we are developing will have base of ~120kn thrust in f414 size.
I
If you get 140kn at roughly f414 size then yeah absolutely. That's *censored*ing CRAZY dude. I wonder if it's possible that it's for a heavier fighter we are developing. Cause even I'm surprised they are aiming so high if they go for 140kn at F414 size.
Na. Safran and GTRE only in terms of development. Maybe they'll show up for manufacturing tho.
French Safran and DRDO combine to give India its first jet engine
The jet engines will be developed in India under Indian IPR with Safran transferring 100% of the technology to DRDO, including crystal blade technology.
India may soon approve a joint project by French firm Safran S.A and India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop and produce 120 Kilo Newton engine which will power India’s twin engine Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) fighter, a move that comes shortly after Prime Minister Narendra Modi called for indigenous development of jet engines from the ramparts of Red Fort during his Independence Day speech, people familiar with the matter said.
Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has also indicated that India will soon embark on the critical task of developing engines for fighter jets. HT learns that Safran-GTRE will develop nine prototypes of fighter engines within a time frame of 12 years. The engines will initially developed with 120 KN power but go up in capacity to 140 KN by the end of the 12 year time period.
The jet engines will be developed in India under Indian IPR with Safran transferring 100% of the technology to DRDO, including crystal blade technology, the people cited above added. These are blades in the engine that are usually constructed from a single crystal using super-alloys, and which are efficient, long-lasting, and also cope better with higher heat and stress. DRDO has the technology, but shaping it for high-powered jet fighter engines presents a different level of challenge.
The idea of both Safran and DRDO combining to develop a jet engine has been hanging fire for the past two years but now the Modi government has pushed DRDO to come up with a proposal which will soon be given green light at the apex level.
This 120-140 KN engine will power the twin engine advanced multi-role aircraft (AMCA), which will be developed and produced by Indian private sector with the Tata group, L &T and Adani Defence all ready to pitch in for the national effort.
PM Modi pushed for an indigenous aircraft engine because this is an apex defence technology with significant civilian spin-offs.
While US, Russia, UK and France have the capacity to design, develop and produce own aircraft engines, even China still does not have its own aircraft engines and uses Russian or reverse engineered engines to power its front-line fighters. India’s GTRE tried to develop indigenous engine Kaveri but the project never took off.
While US defence major GE is supplying India with 212 F-404 engines (a deal for the second tranche of 113 engines is to be signed this month), it is also transferring technology of the heavier GE-414 engine but the technology transfer is only around 70 %.
India is looking at its trusted partner France to co-develop the engine as the US offer is often conditional and prone to strategic disruptions as in the past, the people said. They pointed out that France that did not sanction India for the Pokhran Shakti series of tests in 1998 and continued to provide state of the art INGPS systems for Indian missiles as well as spare parts for Mirage 2000 fighters.
With 73 KN M-88 Snecma engine powering the 36 Indian Rafale fighters, it is only logical that India also looks at Dassault for making 114 additional fighters in India for the multi-role combat program. The design, development and co-production of 110 KN engine will change the complexion of strategic game for India as the Indian Air Force will not be dependent on any third country to provide engine and fighters for power projection, the people said.
The Indian Navy will also get its twin engine deck based fighter with the more powerful Safran-GTRE jet engine for its aircraft carrier strike force. It is with the 120-140KN engine that India will power its front-line fighters in coming decades.
Fighter jet engine | Battle for a jet engine
After decades of waiting, hopes for a truly ‘made in India’ fighter jet engine might finally be realised. New Delhi and Paris are preparing to co-develop a cutting-edge power plant—a project set to propel India into the elite club of nations with access to high-thrust engine technology. Experts from the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), part of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), are in advanced talks with France’s Safran Aircraft Engines to jointly design and build a 120-140 kN (kilonewtons) class engine that will power India’s 5th generation stealth fighter, the twin-engined Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) for aircraft carriers. The deal is estimated to be worth around $7 billion (Rs 62,149 crore) for around 100 engines. The breakthrough announcement by Union defence minister Rajnath Singh, confirming Safran’s partnership to jointly design, develop, test and produce the engine with 100 per cent transfer of technology came just a week after Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Independence Day appeal, urging Indian talent to build indigenous jet engines.
While the proposed collaboration with Safran may not be quite as swadeshi as the PM’s exhortations, it is a step in that direction and an in-principle decision has been made to pursue it. The proposal is awaiting intra-defence and inter-ministerial clearances before it can be placed in front of the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval. The AMCA is expected to be ready for production only by 2035. In all, India is projected to be needing around 1,100 engines for its fighter aircraft programmes by 2035.
The decision to choose Safran as the partner for development of the AMCA engine happened after deliberations with several international aerospace companies. Though Rolls-Royce of the UK was also in contention, the selection of Safran was a vote of confidence over General Electric (GE) of the US. There is good reason for this. Engines for the other two indigenous fighter jets—the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk 1A and the LCA Tejas Mk 2—are tied to engines manufactured by GE, and progress here has been unsatisfactory. GE engine delivery is running behind its estimated timelines and has hampered the Tejas programme. HAL is in the process of procuring GE F404-IN20 engines from GE Aerospace for its Tejas Mk 1A fighter jets, with a Rs 5,375 crore deal for 99 engines signed in 2021 and a follow-on $1 billion (Rs 8,559 crore) deal for 113 engines expected to be signed soon. Though delivery was to start in March 2023, GE Aerospace has delivered the first four engines this year. Consequently, not a single Mk 1A of the initial 83 ordered by the Indian Air Force has been delivered. GE blamed global supply chain disruptions for the delay, which has forced India to impose penalties on the firm.
Simultaneously, commercial aspects of the much-vaunted $1.5 billion (Rs 13,317 crore) deal between HAL and GE for co-production of the GE F414 engines in India in the 98 kN thrust class with 80 per cent transfer of technology are still being negotiated. The GE F414 is to power the Tejas Mk 2 fighter, as well as the first batch of the AMCA. The penalties imposed by India on GE are said to have complicated the talks.
Some aeroengine experts maintain that the GE F414 engine will be inadequate for both the AMCA and the Tejas Mk 2. “The AMCA is designed for an engine with 120kN thrust,” one scientist tells india today. Similarly, the GE F414 may be inadequate for Tejas Mk 2—a medium-weight fighter of 15-18 tonne range carrying a five-tonne combat payload.
There is another issue that goes against a new deal involving the GE F414. Even though 80 per cent tech transfer is assured for the GE F414s meant for the LCA Mk 2 and early AMCAs, sceptical Indian designers are aware that the Americans are loath to share high-end technology despite selling almost $20 billion (Rs 1.77 lakh crore) worth of defence material to India in the past 15 years. But France, which supplies a wide range of military platforms to India, is keen to enhance its strategic partnership.
The engine Safran will develop with India will be a more powerful version of the M-88, the 75 kN engine that powers the Rafale. And Safran will help DRDO/ HAL with full transfer of knowhow, from creating assembly lines, testing facilities and helping with complex metallurgy. Crucially, all parts are going to be sourced from within India. The reason why the estimated cost of this project is much higher than both the GE F414 and the GE F404 deals is that the plan with Safran is to develop a much more potent engine from the ground up—including building manufacturing and testing facilities—as well as the promise of full transfer of technology and intellectual property rights.
However, ‘technology transfer’ often doesn’t materialise to its promised degree. For example, HAL and Safran have jointly produced the Shakti engine for Indian helicopters since 2003 under a similar contract, but less than 50 per cent of parts are made in India with full tech transfer. The Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme with Russia, which promised 60 per cent indigenous content, ended up with only about 13 per cent Indian-made parts. “One should know what to ask for...unless you ask for it, the original equipment manufacturer will never share something that took decades to develop,” says a scientist.
The struggle to produce a jet engine poses something of a paradox. How is it that India can make world-class nuclear submarines and cruise/ ballistic missiles, but not jet engines? Defence analyst Girish Linganna points out that jet engine development takes decades of research, testing and analysis of failure data. Modern jet engines face rapid acceleration and deceleration, have to withstand high temperature and travel several times the speed of sound.
In 1986, India launched the Kaveri engine project, aiming to develop a homegrown jet engine to power its LCA Tejas. T. Mohan Rao, former director of the GTRE, says that India’s indigenous engine fell short by only about 10 per cent in thrust. “A gas-turbine engine has nearly 30,000 components, each performing under extreme temperatures. Even nations like Russia, the US or France took 30 to 35 years to master this technology,” he says, adding that critical technologies such as single-crystal turbine blades and specialised bearings were not available in India at the time. “But no country was willing to share these core technologies.”
India developed nine prototypes of the Kaveri, but none met the parameters to power a fighter jet, despite an expense of over Rs 3,000 crore. The project was shelved in 2011.
The impending collaboration with Safran, thus, is a necessity for India’s aerospace industry. India can’t remain dependent on foreign suppliers. Experts also say India should not expect Safran to hand over a complete design/ IP rights; Indian development must begin with its own design initiative. A consortium approach with private sector agility, public sector infrastructure and foreign knowledge is essential. However, real success lies in how much technology stays with India when French engineers fly back home.
Oh Gawd .. please sign the deal already...
How many years we have to read the same.
If it's T + 11 years, why do have to delay the T itself?
How many years we have to read the same.
If it's T + 11 years, why do have to delay the T itself?
Big Boost For Atmanirbhar Defence: Rs 30,000-Crore Fighter Jet Engine Deal Nears PM-Led CCS Nod - Safran Set to Power India’s AMCA
The Safran deal for co-developing an engine for India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is set for approval by the Cabinet Committee on Security, led by Prime Minister Modi. , India News, Times Now
www.timesnownews.com
The Safran deal, for the co-development of an engine for an Indian fighter plane-- the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is reaching the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi. After being cleared by the Defence Ministry during a high-level meeting presided over by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, it had gone to the National Security Council (NSC), which is familiar with the project, having been part of the planning process, and the Expenditure department of the Finance Ministry.
After the inter-ministerial clearances, only the CCS approval is necessary for this deal worth over Rs 30,000 crore. A final clearance by the CCS, which comprises, apart from the Prime Minister, the ministers of defence, external affairs, home and finance as well as the national security advisor, work can begin on the project.
After considerable discussions, Safran, a French firm, was chosen as the firm to work with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for the co-development of the engine in India-- this being the Atmanirbharata or self-reliance era. Two major candidates were GE, the American firm, and Rolls-Royce, which is British. The Russians had also expressed some interest in the project. Work can begin on the engine once the CCS clears the project. The Indian Air Force has worked closely with the French in the past and in recent years, apart from the Anglo-French Jaguar, it is using the Mirage-2000 and the Rafale, which the Navy also has.
Decade Later, India-France Jet Engine Deal Hits Final Runway for Govt Clearance - Livefist
The French heart for India’s stealth. A Geopolitical engine change. Call it what you will, one of India's most ground-breaking defence partnerships is afoot: a deal to jointly develop and build next generation aircraft engines to power India's homegrown stealth fighters. For decades, India has...
www.livefistdefence.com
The French heart for India’s stealth. A Geopolitical engine change. Call it what you will, one of India’s most ground-breaking defence partnerships is afoot: a deal to jointly develop and build next generation aircraft engines to power India’s homegrown stealth fighters.
For decades, India has carried the unenviable title of the world’s largest importer of military aircraft, a status punctuated by a glaring Achilles’ heel: the inability to create a fighter engine of its own. Now, a potentially transformative partnership between India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and France’s Safran is poised for final approval by India’s Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). This deal, if cleared, would signal a strategic divorce from dependency, aiming to jointly develop the 110–120 kN powerplant for India’s fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
The path to the current Safran deal was paved with the debris of previous attempts. Following the 2016 inter-governmental agreement for 36 Rafale jets, there was an intensive effort to convert the mandatory 50% offset commitments into a meaningful engine partnership. For years, those negotiations remained stuck in a limbo of technicalities, with Safran hesitant to share the crown jewels of engine technology, specifically the hot-engine core and single-crystal blade manufacturing, without a larger, long-term commitment.
The impending deal, estimated at approximately $7 billion, is fundamentally different from a traditional vendor-buyer relationship, at least on paper. The modalities represent a clean-sheet co-development. Unlike the proposed GE F414 deal, which involves a significant but capped transfer of technology (ToT) for an existing American design, the Safran-DRDO (specifically the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, GTRE) partnership envisions:
- 100% Transfer of Technology:** Total access to the most sensitive design codes and manufacturing processes.
- Joint Intellectual Property (IP): India will own the IP for the engine, ensuring that future modifications, upgrades, and even exports are entirely under New Delhi’s control.
- Modular Growth: A design that can scale from 110 kN to 140 kN, catering not just to the AMCA Mk2, but potentially to the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) for the Navy.
There is very small chance you could have got a 4th gen engine of 100kn thrust class (the main aim of kaveri project, to power lca mk2 kind of jet which need a 100kn thrust class engine) for this kind of price which is sub 5 billion usd , and now it is pushing for a stealth optimized engine at this cost?
Very likely in 30-40 years time we will see some scandal breaking up.
Eventually they will settle for local mfg F-414 or some other French M-88 derivative and call it indigenous engine.
Certain aspects I can spot:
- there is no actual desire for indigenous jet engine.
- Current regime and its workforce srtakeholders + participants are very happy with license mfg.
- current political leadership want to go one step further and call a local mfg engine as aatmanirbhar indigenous product.
Very likely in 30-40 years time we will see some scandal breaking up.
Eventually they will settle for local mfg F-414 or some other French M-88 derivative and call it indigenous engine.
Certain aspects I can spot:
- there is no actual desire for indigenous jet engine.
- Current regime and its workforce srtakeholders + participants are very happy with license mfg.
- current political leadership want to go one step further and call a local mfg engine as aatmanirbhar indigenous product.
Current atmanirbhar approach is very job creation centric. Not R&D centric.
But then again, it's a matter of which came first chicken or egg. Industry or skill set. Job market or education curriculum. High end manufacturing or R&D.
It all depends on how serious industrialist are about absorbing not just the technology but the very culture and psyche that produces people who pushes Science forward.
US and European education system and R&D focused industry are interlinked. Just like our 2000s software industry defined our rote-learning job ready type education system. The industry failed to transition from a service provider to product centric, thus our higher education system didn't feel the need to transition either.
At the end of the day, incentives move a society at scale. That is the very basic tenet of FREE Market. If Tommorow, the demand for scientists increased 10x with good pay, the businessman in education domain will ensure that they get the pie of it.
But that is why it's so hard. Because there is no one fix to it. It needs private industry and govt working hand in hand with mission mode.
While govt needs to end roadblocks for private industry to invest and earn in domains that needs high end skilled workforce, the private industry then needs to put money to make jobs a reality and create demand in the market. This is not politics or about past and future. This is constant process.
And it's not like private industry too can set up a engine R&D facilities at the level needed for the goal of 100+KN out of the blue and expect scientist to be readily available either.
But untill 1991, private industry didn't have the limited freedom it enjoys today. Its been only 35 years since then which have seen anti-privatisation govts in between. Name one Nation which was able to create whole ecosystem in 35 years while literally having to manoevor the old guards and "activists" without an iota of far sightedness?
And in those 35 years, it's only been 10 years of the DPI, enabling greater connectivity in india and Indians.
So, in my opinion, things are under evolution ( could you imagine India being able to absorb those kind of ToT 25 years ago?) and we will certainly see more optimistic version of future in 30-40 year timeframe.
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Agreed. Since you’ve already have put your views from the perspective of government-industry-academia dynamics. I’ll add my own views on that from a policy standpoint, it’s equally difficult to predict what will happen 30–40 years from now, especially when we haven’t even fully seen the impact of decisions made in the past few years. It’s too early to judge these initiatives. For example, certain policies from the Rajiv, Rao, and Vajpayee eras only showed their effects much later, during the UPA-2 and NDA-2 periods. This applies to both positive and negative outcomes. How current policies will play out over the next 10–15 years remains uncertain. So, I wouldn’t adopt a cynical view just yet. Let’s see how things unfold. Things could always goes one way or another.
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Im sorry but what makes you say this? Are you aware of the cost China spent on WS15, or Russia on AL51? We cannot be fully sure but most estimates say $5-6 billion and those are engines way way beyond the Kaveri type engine capability, even beyond the 120 kN engine we want to make with France in terms of TET and thrust. So I'm not sure why you believe that $4-5 billion is not enough for a 120 kN class engine reaching 5th gen capabilities. That too with Safran type partner which has decades of experience in jet engine development and ourselves with our Kaveri experience, our current starting point is way better than China when it started WS-15 in 1990s which means the underlying capability needed to build such an entine doesn't need to be made from scratch.
The capability of indigenous engine depends on the will and capability of the Indian organization taking part in the program. In the 1980s and 1990s the government didn't have any "desire" for domestic cryogenic engines, it was ISRO which took the initiative of learning all it could from Viking program, turning it into Vikas and then using that experience to make fully indigenous cryogenic engines. The Government just writes a check and occasionally sends CAG to check progress. Does GTRE have the drive to learn and glean all it can from the French, improve its own R and D capability and prepare itself to make fully indigenous production ready next generation engines based off of the experience it gets from the 120 kN program? That only GTRE can answer. ISRO learnt from Viking/Vikas lets see if GTRE will pull a Vikas type story with this program.