PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Subgradewalker]

Unlike ideal labs results.

In realistic case you can expect *optimistically* 15-20% increase in range using GaN over GaAs.
And some improvements in resolution due to better SNR.

But its not some magic pill that will render stealth ineffective.

It the network of radars and data fusion and AI based field perception that will work against stealth. That's why ISTR will be handy as it will have onboard processing and targeting for quick reaction. While ground based Command centers for redundancy.


No one platform on its own will do work when in defensive position.
We have borders with our enemy so, China and India will be using all their assets unlike USA which fights away from its land.

That's why you see that US haven't taken F-35 in a contested airspace with good networked defense yet. Cause NATO and Pacific Islands aren't ready with their radars, sensors yet.

And US has shown reluctance in providing India with systems for greater interoperability resulting in India developing it's own indigenous and classified stack.

Let's see what future unfolds

 

[South block]

It the network of radars and data fusion and AI based field perception that will work against stealth. That's why ISTR will be handy as it will have onboard processing and targeting for quick reaction. While ground based Command centers for redundancy.


No one platform on its own will do work when in defensive position.
We have borders with our enemy so, China and India will be using all their assets unlike USA which fights away from its land.

That's why you see that US haven't taken F-35 in a contested airspace with good networked defense yet. Cause NATO and Pacific Islands aren't ready with their radars, sensors yet.

And US has shown reluctance in providing India with systems for greater interoperability resulting in India developing it's own indigenous and classified stack.

Let's see what future unfolds

Israel took F 35 into the heart of Iran, B-2 went into the heart of Iran..... No amount of Chinese made Iranian sensor fusion manage to stop their airforce & nuclear facilities getting hammered to oblivion.

 

[babablacksheep]

Israel took F 35 into the heart of Iran, B-2 went into the heart of Iran..... No amount of Chinese made Iranian sensor fusion manage to stop their airforce & nuclear facilities getting hammered to oblivion.

Well Israel did conduct heavy SEAD and DEAD before.
But yeah, not all airdefense all systems of iran were destroyed in the SEAD.
Then there's also reports of IRAN only taking those air defense systems out during night, as to prevent sats from picking them up and becoming a target of SEAD.

So it was a contested enviornment for f35, but not heavily or sufficiently contested.

 

[South block]

Well Israel did conduct heavy SEAD and DEAD before.
But yeah, not all airdefense all systems of iran were destroyed in the SEAD.
Then there's also reports of IRAN only taking those air defense systems out during night, as to prevent sats from picking them up and becoming a target of SEAD.

So it was a contested enviornment for f35, but not heavily or sufficiently contested.

Why create self sabotaging potholes when we could just build and enjoy a well paved road instead...... Just saying

 

[Subgradewalker]

Israel took F 35 into the heart of Iran, B-2 went into the heart of Iran..... No amount of Chinese made Iranian sensor fusion manage to stop their airforce & nuclear facilities getting hammered to oblivion.

Iran doesn't have networked AD. It has some ragtag system cold war junk or cold war inspired junk.

Even then, Israel first used drone attacks to get Iran on backfoot. By the time they could recover, Israel had already started SEAD,DEAD missions, which didn't take much time given their lack of AD. Then it destroyed missile launchers. After doing everything, B-2 did what israeli couldn't and left.

Same tactic in Chinese extended airspace would have destroyed israeli AF before they could enter their territory. Otherwise, USA would have spread democracy there by now

 

[vstol Jockey]

Sad that many fans have fallen to the propaganda and failed to understand that the su57 is a better jet than f35 or f22.

Every aircraft is designed based on the tactics it will employ. RCS is not as much important as the ability of the aircraft to complete its kill chain and give desired results. SU-57 is designed for longrange missile firing while retaining ability to have knife fights to defeat incoming missiles.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Sad that many fans have fallen to the propaganda and failed to understand that the su57 is a better jet than f35 or f22.

Absolutely. It's designed to slay F-22 Raptor and that makes it better than F-35 Lightning II by default. Let IAF procure it first and then the world will know about Su-57's true prowess.

The people who used to call Russian military equipment as junk have suddenly gone very quiet post the latest Ops. Su-57 detractors will meet the same fate post its IAF's acquisition.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Absolutely. It's designed to slay F-22 Raptor and that makes it better than F-35 Lightning II by default. Let IAF procure it first and then the world will know about Su-57's true prowess.

The people who used to call Russian military equipment as junk have suddenly gone very quiet post the latest Ops. Su-57 detractors will meet the same fate post its IAF's acquisition.

Su-57 by it's very definition is a Stealth Killer meaning it was designed to hunt down Stealth Fighter Aircraft.

Any AF inducting the Su-57 would've one part of the equation solved ( not getting into the efficacy of the Su-57 for the said role but going merely by paper specifications ) but not the other part of the equation namely SEAD / DEAD operations .

Assuming IAF opts for the Su-57 , the above still holds true . What are you going to use to break down the veritable barn door ? The US has the F-35 , PLAAF is priming up the J-35 for that role . Let's leave aside the various 6th Gen platforms under development the world over .

What will we deploy for strike missions ? The Rafales ? The Rafales as we have it in our inventory today is inadequate to go up against what the Chinese have namely their IADS , ISR including space based assets , anti stealth Search & Tracking LR Radars including multi static radars , VHF , UHF radars etc .

Possibly the F5 upgrades will be good enough but that's way into the future by which time who knows what the Chinese will come up with & by which time I'm of the opinion the Chinese threat will either prevail or would be sorted out one way or another ?!

Then there's the issue of the inventory of 5th Gen in the form of the J-20 , the J-35 & the entire fleet of UAVs , UCAVs , CCAs at the disposal of the PLAAF vs 36 nos Rafales & say an equivalent number of Su-57 .

Whichever way we choose to dice the problem , the various limitations that the said platform brings as baggage hampers our efforts to optimally use that system to effectively nullify the Chinese threat , be it the F-35s or the Su-57 or the Rafales or for that matter even the MKIs.

 

[YoungWolf]

Absolutely. It's designed to slay F-22 Raptor and that makes it better than F-35 Lightning II by default. Let IAF procure it first and then the world will know about Su-57's true prowess.

In order to slay the F-22 and F-35 as you so callously claim it's designed to do, Su-57 needs to have superior stealth and sensor fusion first and foremost. Physics dictate that Su-57 won't be as stealthy as F-22 and F-35 from the front and the sides, and it'd be laughable to question the superiority of US 5th gen's sensor fusion. Heck, as of now, I'm inclined to say even the Rafale has got better sensor fusion than the Su-57. The only thing Su-57 is better "by default" is it's top speed and internal weapons payload.

Modern air combat relies more on AWACS, less on ground-based control stations. How many Beriev A-50s have they got operational? Where's their A-100 AWACS?

The people who used to call Russian military equipment as junk have suddenly gone very quiet post the latest Ops. Su-57 detractors will meet the same fate post its IAF's acquisition.

S-400 being a great ADS doesn't automatically make the Su-57 a Raptor/Lightning-II killer. Missiles & ADS are something they do great and even on that front we'd probably surpass them by the end of the decade, at our current rate of progress.

The IAF left the FGFA programme citing concerns on stealth and the Russian side not honouring the terms of agreement (the latter is something I'll keep reminding every time I see someone fanboying over it). Since then, no major development happened which has turned the programme's progress for the better. Su-57 still hasn't entered serial production with the AL-51F and questions remain on their radar/EW & sensor fusion on the whole. It isn't IAF's responsibility to salvage failed Russian programmes at the cost of our own projects.

 

[batman]

Lmao, everything said here is wrong.

One of the upgrades of megapolis program of su57 is modifications in its belly shape, the su57m will have a improved lower profile for lower rcs.
A wider and flatter fuselage than current su57.

And chinese are not retards to go with flat belly in not only their j20, but current j35 and future j50 and j36.

Turkish kaan design, UK-italy-japan design gcap design, our amca all feature flat belly.
And no flat belly is not worse for rcs, your stupid comment fails to take into account that grounf based radar will not be directly below the jet, the radar waves will not interact with flat belly at 90% angle.

The claim shows a poor grasp of both stealth shaping principles and what’s actually confirmed about the Su-57M. There’s zero credible evidence that Megapolis involves some magical “flat belly upgrade” — the program is publicly known for new izd.30 engines, avionics, and sensors, not a radical fuselage redesign. And the “flat belly isn’t worse for RCS” line is just wrong. In radar physics, a big flat conductive surface is a gift to enemy sensors because it throws back strong returns over a wide range of angles, not just when a radar is perfectly under you. Modern IADS don’t politely put one radar straight below — they use overlapping low-elevation, high-elevation, AWACS, and bistatic systems, meaning your “90% angle” argument is pure fantasy. The Su-57’s contoured, faceted lower fuselage with chines and serrations is there for a reason: it breaks up reflections and scatters energy away from multiple threat vectors. There’s a reason serious stealth designers don’t treat shaping like a Minecraft build — but I guess some people still do.
Also none of the countries you mentioned are better than the Russians when it comes to making fighter jets.

 

[batman]

SU 57 is a over hyped tin can period..........Even Russian airforce doesn't want it............ it's a white elephant with incurable design flaws that can’t be fixed without starting over again from design board....... AMCA will run circle around it if ADA & DRDO manage to deliver which i am sure they will.

This is the most ignorant comment I've read today when the su57 is much better than any platform India is currently operating. I wont bother comparing our future 4th gen platforms with it but the su57 have several advantages over the amca with future french/uk/japanese engine which you failed to consider.

 

[babablacksheep]

The claim shows a poor grasp of both stealth shaping principles and what’s actually confirmed about the Su-57M

Oh, what exactly is this "poor grasp" you talk about?.

the program is publicly known for new izd.30 engines, avionics, and sensors, not a radical fuselage redesign

ТАСС — «Производство модернизированного варианта Су-57 может начаться в 2025 году»
: краткое национальное агентство цитирует источник о том, что в рамках ОКР «Мегаполис» самолёт получит обновлённую кабину, расширен… фюзеляж и внутренние отсеки вооружения … более плоскими, современную авионику и двигатели второго этапа

**TASS — “Production of the modernized version of the Su-57 may begin in 2025”: the national agency briefly cites a source that, as part of the Megapolis R&D project, the aircraft will receive an updated cockpit, an expanded… fuselage and internal weapons bays … flatter, modern avionics and second-stage engines**

 

[babablacksheep]

There’s a reason serious stealth designers don’t treat shaping like a Minecraft build — but I guess some people still do.

Serious stealth designers from China do. With their j20, now j35, and even with their future j50 and j36.
Serious stealth designers from India do to with amca having flat belly.
Serious stealth designers from US do, from turkey too, from UK too.
And even from russia too with how much they tried to flatten the underbelly of su57, you can look at the design if su57's belly compared to normal flankers
You can also look at the flat belly of latest stealth fighter designs from russia thd su75.

 

[batman]

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

F-35A Radar scattering simulation

Introduction F-35 is the backbone of American stealth fighter fleet, it is intended to replace F-16, F-18C/D, Harrier and A-10. There are currently 3 versions of F-35 which are F-35A, F-35B and F-3…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

F-35 vs J-20 vs Su-57 Summary

Introduction Previously, we have done HFSS simulation to evaluate the mean and median radar cross section as well as the radar scattering pattern of the four common stealth fighters namely F-35A, S…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Now if we optimistically assume su57's RAS and RAM coating to be as effective as f35's RAS and RAM coating, even then su57's rcs will be 8-10 times higher than f35's.
That will mean increase in detection range of 1.68-1.78 times from an x band array.

If an f35 can be detected at let's say 30km by an x band array , then su57 will be detected at 50-55 km by the same array.


If you disagree with it, it would be better for you to provide more credible info in favour of your argument, then to just parrot mindless jargon to su57 being equal in stealth to f35.

Not to mention that naked irst of su57 which when working completely takes away its stealth.

This might be what you are looking for,

https://twitter.com/x/status/1903273083995140433

, it gives a better representation of its RCS figures. The IRST still provides several benefits especially against 4th generation when most of the world still uses it as their main force builder.

 

[babablacksheep]

This might be what you are looking for,

https://twitter.com/x/status/1903273083995140433

, it gives a better representation of its RCS figures. The IRST still provides several benefits especially against 4th generation when most of the world still uses it as their main force builder.

I never said it has rcs of SH or rafale.

I said its rcs is subpar compared to other stealth jets, including j20.
Especially from front.
And I stand by it.
And a computer simulations, with actuals laws on how radar waves behaves and how geometry works gives better analysis.

F-35 vs J-20 vs Su-57 Summary

Introduction Previously, we have done HFSS simulation to evaluate the mean and median radar cross section as well as the radar scattering pattern of the four common stealth fighters namely F-35A, S…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

As for your argument about su57 having RAS hence its rcs does not depend as much on shaping as f22( which has metal body), F35 and j20 also have RAS.



It's IRST can provide benifit against 5th gen too if they enclosed it in a stealthy sapphire covering, irst will loose some performance due to interference of the covering but atleast the stealth won't be lost when irst is working.
Turkish kaan has similar concept.


And the analysis you provided, uses the simulation whose link i provided, and it reaches same conclusion as me.
Su57's rcs is higher than f35 by 8-10× times.
That would mean increase in detection range to 1.68-1.78 of the detection range of f35, by the same radar.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Something which many of the members do not know is that in last AeroIndia, Su-57 stayed back in India for three days and operated from Lohegaon Airbase in Pune. The IAF did a thorogh check of its RCS values against some of their best radars. The decision to buy Su-57 is based on what the IAF found about this aircraft in actual operations under its best radars.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Something which many of the members do not know is that in last AeroIndia, Su-57 stayed back in India for three days and operated from Lohegaon Airbase in Pune. The IAF did a thorogh check of its RCS values against some of their best radars. The decision to buy Su-57 is based on what the IAF found about this aircraft in actual operations under its best radars.

Let the keyboard warriors believe what they want to believe but IAF knows what they're buying and they're gonna love it

PS: @ALL keyboard warriors
What if Su-57 is more stealthy than F-22/F-35 & J-20

 

[Subgradewalker]

Let the keyboard warriors believe what they want to believe but IAF knows what they're buying and they're gonna love it

PS: @ALL keyboard warriors
What if Su-57 is more stealthy than F-22/F-35 & J-20

Then first criticism for the purchase then silence when it shows its prowess..

That's typical toolkit

 

[_Anonymous_]

Something which many of the members do not know is that in last AeroIndia, Su-57 stayed back in India for three days and operated from Lohegaon Airbase in Pune. The IAF did a thorogh check of its RCS values against some of their best radars. The decision to buy Su-57 is based on what the IAF found about this aircraft in actual operations under its best radars.

Wasn't the model of the Su-57 deployed during the AI-25 one of their early prototypes ? I'd imagine if upto date genuine RCS readings are needed based on which we take a decision either way , we'd need access to their Megapolis models .

 

[babablacksheep]

Something which many of the members do not know is that in last AeroIndia, Su-57 stayed back in India for three days and operated from Lohegaon Airbase in Pune. The IAF did a thorogh check of its RCS values against some of their best radars. The decision to buy Su-57 is based on what the IAF found about this aircraft in actual operations under its best radars.

The su57 that visited india was "t50" prototype".
Forget RAS and RAM.
It didn't even had engine blockers along
With exposed nuts and bolts and antennas.

Rcs check my *censored*.
Either back your word with any sort of credible proof/info, or stop spouting false nonsense.

Let the keyboard warriors believe what they want to believe but IAF knows what they're buying and they're gonna love it

PS: @ALL keyboard warriors
What if Su-57 is more stealthy than F-22/F-35 & J-20

Ps: its not, stop living in your delusion.

Your the same guy who had that wrong conclusion about have glass f16, and half the shit you claimed didn't come true.