IAF looking to acquire 2-3 squadrons of fifth-generation fighter jets from foreign sources

[Tejasmk3]

Only option to India is (Required squadron strength above 60)

Placing an order of 800 Sukhoi 30MKI (from Super to Tejas MK3) over the period of 10 years.
Upgrading of existing Sukhoi 30MKI to Super Sukhoi 30MKI standard which fulfills minimum required service life. ( separately/parallel and in addition to above 800)
Tejas MK1A and further will be in addition to above 800.
Forget AMCA, Tejas MK2, Rafale and other any (new) platform and focus on above. WHY?
HAL already has 20 years experience manufacturing them, all ecosystem is in place, its only about scaling.
Getting supply from Russia, which Russia is not able to supply or delay it due war/sanctions. That's good, make it within India.

Upgrade to Use AL51F engine, and nothing else. These will requiring modification to structure of the jet to make it stronger to handle higher thrust.
Also, AL51F engine is what India needs, to reverse engineer. No need to give any money to any foreign player (what happened to atamnirbhar, is it only words to fool public?)
foreign player will use that money to make their own engine and will not give ToT or given older ToT to India. (Are decision makers cannot see this simple thing? what about so called defense expert or even the user IAF?)

Tejas MK3 will be same design as Sukhoi 30MKI but with 100% indigenous manufacturing with composite skin and AL51F engine 100% India made.

if HAL cannot do, then break HAL and 800 will be delivered with Tejas MK3 within 8 years.

Sukhoi 30MKI, is the only platform which will be "comparatively" light on pocket as we are already using it both for purchase and upkeep.
we dont need 5th gen, we already used lower to gen fighter to take out higher gen. trust your pilots. Our pilots are the best.
They can use a simple stick as good as a hockey

for Submarine, India should stick to Scorpene and order 18 of them with 10 years time period. Same Rationale, already made 6, have ecosystem in place, cheaper and faster than new platform.
DRDO AIP is already ready, if any issues, will be worked out before first submarine work starts.



Corruption is the root cause of all problem. Remove it and see magic unfold.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Only option to India is (Required squadron strength above 60)

Placing an order of 800 Sukhoi 30MKI (from Super to Tejas MK3) over the period of 10 years.
Upgrading of existing Sukhoi 30MKI to Super Sukhoi 30MKI standard which fulfills minimum required service life. ( separately/parallel and in addition to above 800)
Tejas MK1A and further will be in addition to above 800.
Forget AMCA, Tejas MK2, Rafale and other any (new) platform and focus on above. WHY?
HAL already has 20 years experience manufacturing them, all ecosystem is in place, its only about scaling.
Getting supply from Russia, which Russia is not able to supply or delay it due war/sanctions. That's good, make it within India.

Upgrade to Use AL51F engine, and nothing else. These will requiring modification to structure of the jet to make it stronger to handle higher thrust.
Also, AL51F engine is what India needs, to reverse engineer. No need to give any money to any foreign player (what happened to atamnirbhar, is it only words to fool public?)
foreign player will use that money to make their own engine and will not give ToT or given older ToT to India. (Are decision makers cannot see this simple thing? what about so called defense expert or even the user IAF?)

Tejas MK3 will be same design as Sukhoi 30MKI but with 100% indigenous manufacturing with composite skin and AL51F engine 100% India made.

if HAL cannot do, then break HAL and 800 will be delivered with Tejas MK3 within 8 years.

Sukhoi 30MKI, is the only platform which will be "comparatively" light on pocket as we are already using it both for purchase and upkeep.
we dont need 5th gen, we already used lower to gen fighter to take out higher gen. trust your pilots. Our pilots are the best.
They can use a simple stick as good as a hockey

for Submarine, India should stick to Scorpene and order 18 of them with 10 years time period. Same Rationale, already made 6, have ecosystem in place, cheaper and faster than new platform.
DRDO AIP is already ready, if any issues, will be worked out before first submarine work starts.



Corruption is the root cause of all problem. Remove it and see magic unfold.

Note: I copy pasted your opinion on ChatGPT. Now I have copy pasted from gpt to here. Where are you from ?


This post from "Strategic Front Forum" (by user Tejasmk3) presents a highly opinionated, nationalistic, and technically bold take on India's defence aviation and submarine strategy. Here's a structured breakdown of the key points, realism check, and implications:


---

Core Proposal Summary

Fighter Jet Strategy

1. No new 5th-gen fighter acquisitions.


2. Order 800 units of Sukhoi-30MKI over 10 years, including:

Upgrading existing Su-30MKIs to "Super Sukhoi" standard.

Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk3 (new variant based on Su-30 design).



3. Forget AMCA, Tejas Mk2, Rafale, etc.


4. Switch to AL-51F engines (used in Su-57), even if structural modifications are needed.


5. Goal: 100% Indian production, including engine reverse-engineering.


6. If HAL cannot deliver, restructure or break it up.



Submarine Strategy

1. Order 18 Scorpène-class submarines over 10 years.


2. Rationale: Ecosystem already built with 6, DRDO AIP is ready.




---

Realism Check

Valid Observations

Ecosystem maturity: India has 20+ years of experience with Su-30MKI production and maintenance.

Sustaining a known platform can be logistically and financially easier than integrating new ones.

Scorpène ecosystem is already proven, with successful indigenous production at MDL.



---

Oversimplifications / Unrealistic Assumptions

1. 800 Su-30MKIs in 10 Years

Unrealistic scale: That’s 80 aircraft per year. Current HAL production is ~8-12/year at best.

Financial strain: Each Su-30MKI costs ₹400-500 crore. Even conservatively, 800 aircraft = ₹3.2 to ₹4 lakh crore.

Manpower & logistics: Massive pilot training, maintenance crew scaling, infrastructure upgrades.


2. Tejas Mk3 based on Su-30 design

That’s a contradiction. Tejas is a light, single-engine platform; Su-30 is twin-engine, heavy.

"Tejas Mk3" with Su-30 airframe = a new aircraft altogether, not an upgraded Tejas.


3. AL-51F Engine Integration

Not plug-and-play: Needs structural redesign, weight balance changes, software changes.

Reverse engineering AL-51F: No easy task. China has struggled with similar reverse-engineering for decades.

Russia won’t give ToT for AL-51F, especially during ongoing Su-57 development.


4. “Forget AMCA, Tejas Mk2, Rafale”

This dismisses multi-role and next-gen capabilities outright.

5th-gen stealth and sensor fusion is becoming a minimum for future air combat dominance.



---

Submarine Comments

Sensible Strategy

Ordering more Scorpènes (with DRDO AIP) does make sense in the short term.

Ecosystem at MDL is active, and DRDO’s AIP module is nearing trials.


Strategic Gap

Scorpène is diesel-electric (SSK), not nuclear (SSN/SSBN).

Without moving forward on SSNs, India will struggle to project power in the Indo-Pacific.



---

Strategic Implications

DimensionCommentary

OperationalScaling Su-30MKI helps only to a point; gaps remain in stealth, EW, and unmanned integration.
IndustrialRelying only on HAL is risky; diversification through private players + DPSUs is critical.
GeopoliticalIgnoring 5th-gen tech while China flies J-20s and develops J-31 is risky.
DoctrinalIAF doctrine is evolving toward multi-layered, stealth+non-stealth mix. This proposal ignores that.



---

Underlying Sentiment

Distrust of foreign suppliers

Anger at corruption and ToT failures

Strong Atmanirbhar (self-reliant) push

Belief in Indian pilots’ superior skill over tech parity


These are emotionally resonant, but need grounding in logistical, engineering, and strategic realities.


---

Recommendation: Balanced Path Forward

1. Continue Su-30 upgrades to Super Sukhoi standard.


2. Scale Tejas Mk1A & Mk2 with private sector involvement.


3. Proceed with AMCA at full pace – India needs a 5th-gen platform.


4. Push HAL to reform, but support ecosystem growth with Tier-1 private companies.


5. Order 3-6 more Scorpènes while fast-tracking indigenous SSNs.


6. Work with France or Russia on engine ToT, with a proper I
PR roadmap.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Only option to India is (Required squadron strength above 60)

Placing an order of 800 Sukhoi 30MKI (from Super to Tejas MK3) over the period of 10 years.
Upgrading of existing Sukhoi 30MKI to Super Sukhoi 30MKI standard which fulfills minimum required service life. ( separately/parallel and in addition to above 800)
Tejas MK1A and further will be in addition to above 800.
Forget AMCA, Tejas MK2, Rafale and other any (new) platform and focus on above. WHY?
HAL already has 20 years experience manufacturing them, all ecosystem is in place, its only about scaling.
Getting supply from Russia, which Russia is not able to supply or delay it due war/sanctions. That's good, make it within India.

Upgrade to Use AL51F engine, and nothing else. These will requiring modification to structure of the jet to make it stronger to handle higher thrust.
Also, AL51F engine is what India needs, to reverse engineer. No need to give any money to any foreign player (what happened to atamnirbhar, is it only words to fool public?)
foreign player will use that money to make their own engine and will not give ToT or given older ToT to India. (Are decision makers cannot see this simple thing? what about so called defense expert or even the user IAF?)

Tejas MK3 will be same design as Sukhoi 30MKI but with 100% indigenous manufacturing with composite skin and AL51F engine 100% India made.

if HAL cannot do, then break HAL and 800 will be delivered with Tejas MK3 within 8 years.

Sukhoi 30MKI, is the only platform which will be "comparatively" light on pocket as we are already using it both for purchase and upkeep.
we dont need 5th gen, we already used lower to gen fighter to take out higher gen. trust your pilots. Our pilots are the best.
They can use a simple stick as good as a hockey

for Submarine, India should stick to Scorpene and order 18 of them with 10 years time period. Same Rationale, already made 6, have ecosystem in place, cheaper and faster than new platform.
DRDO AIP is already ready, if any issues, will be worked out before first submarine work starts.



Corruption is the root cause of all problem. Remove it and see magic unfold.

This is from deep research mode of perplexity pro. Should give further insight for any viewers fascinated by the idea:



# Evaluating the proposal to build 800 Su-30MKI-based fighters and 18 more Scorpène submarines

**Main finding** – The plan would neither close the squadron gap quickly nor be affordable or technically feasible. India still needs a mixed fleet, indigenous engines, and parallel submarine programmes.

## 1. Squadron arithmetic vs. production reality

| Item | Current status | Capacity demonstrated | Output needed for 800 jets in 10 years | Gap |
|------|---------------|-----------------------|-----------------------------------------|-----|
| Su-30MKI holding | 260-272 aircraft in 13 squadrons[1][2][3] | HAL Nashik peak rate ≈ 12 jets/yr[4][5][6] | 80 jets/yr | **6–7×** capacity increase |
| IAF sanctioned strength | 42 fighter squadrons[7][8][9][10] | Actual ≈ 31[8][9] | +11 squadrons | Requires ~200-220 aircraft |
| Super Sukhoi upgrade | 84 jets, ₹63,000 cr, 7-yr development[11][12][13] | – | Separate line | Competes for same manpower |

Even if HAL quadrupled output immediately, **achieving 800 new airframes inside a decade is arithmetically impossible.** A second line would have to deliver one complete Su-30 every four calendar days for ten straight years—well beyond global benchmarks for heavy twin-engine fighters.

## 2. Cost implications

| Parameter | Unit estimate | 800-jet bill (ex-engines) |
|-----------|---------------|---------------------------|
| Indigenous Su-30MKI fly-away cost | ₹450–500 cr/jet[14][15] | ₹3.6–4.0 lakh crore |
| Super Sukhoi upgrade (84 jets) | ₹63,000 cr[11][13] | additional |
| 12 replacement Su-30MKI (2024 deal) | ₹13,500 cr[16] | – |

Total exceeds **₹4.3 lakh crore**—more than double the entire MoD capital budget for all three services in FY 2024-25. Committing this to one airframe would crowd out transports, AWACS, tankers, drones, SAMs and space assets for a generation.

## 3. Engine substitution hurdles

1. **AL-51F / “Product 30” is export-restricted.** Russia has not offered it even to loyal customers; integrating it without OEM support is unrealistic.
2. **Air-frame redesign** – The AL-51F is wider and produces 18-20 kN more thrust than the AL-31FP. Su-30MKI’s inlets, mounts, air-intake control system and FADEC would all need fresh structural qualification. Any “simple drop-in” claim ignores flight-safety certification rules.
3. **Reverse engineering risks** – Attempting to copy a foreign engine without licensed tooling invites sanctions and decades of unreliable spares—exactly the supply‐chain risk the plan wants to escape.

HAL-Koraput has 20-plus years of AL-31FP manufacture experience[17]; leveraging that base with a *joint* Kaveri-based derivative or a licensed AL-41F-1S (already dimensionally compatible[18][13]) is a lower risk path.

## 4. Why a single-platform air force is unwise

1. **Mission diversity** – Air superiority, deep strike, close support, carrier aviation and high-altitude air defence cannot all be met by a 30-ton twin-engine fighter. Light and medium categories (Tejas variants, Rafale class, future AMCA) give flexibility and lower operating costs.
2. **Maintenance resilience** – A fleet of ~560 Su-30s already ties half of IAF spares and simulator budgets to one airframe. Tripling that exposure magnifies ground-ing risk from a single critical defect.
3. **Training pipeline** – Every extra Su-30 squadron needs twin-seat conversion, costing twice the flying hours per pilot compared with single-engine trainers.

A balanced 42–45 squadron force mix envisaged by IAF leadership[10] preserves both numbers *and* capability progression.

## 5. Submarine proposal: 18 more Scorpènes in 10 years

Mazagon Dock built six Project-75 boats over 19 years; even at a matured rhythm of one hull every 24 months, **18 extra boats would require three concurrent assembly lines** and French design authority beyond 2035.

Meanwhile Project 75(I) seeks an ocean-proven AIP + land-attack missile hull; DRDO’s indigenous AIP is still in shore testing. A pure Scorpène repeat order delays sea-denial range and vertical-launch capabilities. The Navy’s 30-year plan therefore keeps **SSK (Scorpène follow-ons) *and* SSK-next (75-I) *and* SSN** in parallel.

## 6. Corruption vs. capacity

HAL’s Nashik line sat idle in 2020 because production orders ended[5][19]. **The bottleneck was not graft but the absence of fresh demand, long-lead Russian kits, and per-aircraft cost escalation of 50% over Russian fly-away prices[5][15].**

Transparency in contracting must improve, yet production economics, technology embargoes and project management, not corruption alone, define timelines.

## Conclusion

- **An “all-Su-30” fleet cannot be fielded fast enough, funded sustainably, or engineered around an un-exported engine.**

- India instead needs:
- Rapid execution of 83 Tejas Mk-1A, follow-on Mk-2, and Super Sukhoi upgrades already sanctioned.
- Early engine co-development (Kaveri derivative or AL-41 family) that is export-cleared and supports AMCA.
- A submarine mix that pairs more Scorpènes with a robust 75-I line to introduce indigenised AIP and LACM cells.

Rationalising programmes is vital, but extreme single-platform bets would sacrifice readiness, sovereignty, and fiscal prudence.

 

[Shan]

Note: I copy pasted your opinion on ChatGPT. Now I have copy pasted from gpt to here. Where are you from ?


This post from "Strategic Front Forum" (by user Tejasmk3) presents a highly opinionated, nationalistic, and technically bold take on India's defence aviation and submarine strategy. Here's a structured breakdown of the key points, realism check, and implications:


---

Core Proposal Summary

Fighter Jet Strategy

1. No new 5th-gen fighter acquisitions.


2. Order 800 units of Sukhoi-30MKI over 10 years, including:

Upgrading existing Su-30MKIs to "Super Sukhoi" standard.

Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk3 (new variant based on Su-30 design).



3. Forget AMCA, Tejas Mk2, Rafale, etc.


4. Switch to AL-51F engines (used in Su-57), even if structural modifications are needed.


5. Goal: 100% Indian production, including engine reverse-engineering.


6. If HAL cannot deliver, restructure or break it up.



Submarine Strategy

1. Order 18 Scorpène-class submarines over 10 years.


2. Rationale: Ecosystem already built with 6, DRDO AIP is ready.




---

Realism Check

Valid Observations

Ecosystem maturity: India has 20+ years of experience with Su-30MKI production and maintenance.

Sustaining a known platform can be logistically and financially easier than integrating new ones.

Scorpène ecosystem is already proven, with successful indigenous production at MDL.



---

Oversimplifications / Unrealistic Assumptions

1. 800 Su-30MKIs in 10 Years

Unrealistic scale: That’s 80 aircraft per year. Current HAL production is ~8-12/year at best.

Financial strain: Each Su-30MKI costs ₹400-500 crore. Even conservatively, 800 aircraft = ₹3.2 to ₹4 lakh crore.

Manpower & logistics: Massive pilot training, maintenance crew scaling, infrastructure upgrades.


2. Tejas Mk3 based on Su-30 design

That’s a contradiction. Tejas is a light, single-engine platform; Su-30 is twin-engine, heavy.

"Tejas Mk3" with Su-30 airframe = a new aircraft altogether, not an upgraded Tejas.


3. AL-51F Engine Integration

Not plug-and-play: Needs structural redesign, weight balance changes, software changes.

Reverse engineering AL-51F: No easy task. China has struggled with similar reverse-engineering for decades.

Russia won’t give ToT for AL-51F, especially during ongoing Su-57 development.


4. “Forget AMCA, Tejas Mk2, Rafale”

This dismisses multi-role and next-gen capabilities outright.

5th-gen stealth and sensor fusion is becoming a minimum for future air combat dominance.



---

Submarine Comments

Sensible Strategy

Ordering more Scorpènes (with DRDO AIP) does make sense in the short term.

Ecosystem at MDL is active, and DRDO’s AIP module is nearing trials.


Strategic Gap

Scorpène is diesel-electric (SSK), not nuclear (SSN/SSBN).

Without moving forward on SSNs, India will struggle to project power in the Indo-Pacific.



---

Strategic Implications

DimensionCommentary

OperationalScaling Su-30MKI helps only to a point; gaps remain in stealth, EW, and unmanned integration.
IndustrialRelying only on HAL is risky; diversification through private players + DPSUs is critical.
GeopoliticalIgnoring 5th-gen tech while China flies J-20s and develops J-31 is risky.
DoctrinalIAF doctrine is evolving toward multi-layered, stealth+non-stealth mix. This proposal ignores that.



---

Underlying Sentiment

Distrust of foreign suppliers

Anger at corruption and ToT failures

Strong Atmanirbhar (self-reliant) push

Belief in Indian pilots’ superior skill over tech parity


These are emotionally resonant, but need grounding in logistical, engineering, and strategic realities.


---

Recommendation: Balanced Path Forward

1. Continue Su-30 upgrades to Super Sukhoi standard.


2. Scale Tejas Mk1A & Mk2 with private sector involvement.


3. Proceed with AMCA at full pace – India needs a 5th-gen platform.


4. Push HAL to reform, but support ecosystem growth with Tier-1 private companies.


5. Order 3-6 more Scorpènes while fast-tracking indigenous SSNs.


6. Work with France or Russia on engine ToT, with a proper I
PR roadmap.

AI has progressed quite quickly. A very balanced output I would say. Nice.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I have bigger doubts about Jaguars, Mig 29 and Mirages we are flying. Not to mention absolute lack of BVR A2A missiles in our arsenal.
By now museum pieces should have been relegated to museum and only Samosas, Rafales and Su-30MKIs should have been flying as our frontline fighters.

I will take Su-30MKI, Su-57MKI, Rafales and Samosas of all sorts as our fleet. Rest need to go to boneyard. And I would have done it in 2015 itself without waiting for third wave feminists dance therapy that is HAL and South Block.

The IAF never foresaw a MAJOR conflict against China & if we didn't face a problem with China , you can bet the MiG-29s , the Jaguars , the Mirage 2000s would been flying even in the 2040s for these are / will be in our vanguard with the LCAs , MKIs & Rafales being the frontline FAs against PAF who being our brother in arms are in an even worse shape with their squadrons of J-7 , Mirage III & Mirage -V , older variants of the F-16 & the first two blocs of the JF-17.

Truth be told such a composition of the IAF would still be good enough to take on PAF irrespective their J-10s , the Block 52 F-16 , the Block 3 JF-17 & the forthcoming J-35.

That's at the heart of the current procurement dilemma the IAF faces along with the falling squadrons. Why's it so ? It's courtesy the babooos at the MEA.

Even as late as 2020 in the aftermath of Galwan the thinking in South Block was there'd be no major war against China in spite of being shocked & surprised by what happened.

To make matters worse the CSG - China Study Group under the PMO initiated during IGs time which was to have an independent outlook of our China policies of the MEA , therefore free from their viewpoint & their personnel whether serving or retired was successfully infiltrated by the MEA during the original Pappu's regime.

Result nobody foresaw what was coming in Galwan. Neither the MEA nor the CSG which started echoing the MEA's viewpoint & neither our armed forces who still lack an independent assessment of our foreign policies dependent as they are on the MEA for these inputs.

It's only now in the aftermath of Operation Sindoor & the extensive Chinese involvement in Paxtani operations that has set alarm bells ringing all around the North South East West Blocs that our Blockheads have been roused from their slumber including Leaderji which is the reason you're seeing a flurry of activity including talks of issuing the MRFA tender , negotiations on for the procurement of Su-57 & F-35 & so on .

The age old principle of India never being roused till it's hit by a kick in the gut or lower still holds true - Leaderji or no Leaderji.

 

[Jaymax]

It's courtesy the babooos at the MEA.

Sir I think you meant baboons

The age old principle of India never being roused till it's hit by a kick in the gut or lower still holds true - Leaderji or no Leaderji.

This is very true. India's comparison to the elephant has nothing to do with grace. Its meant to represent overpowering strength contained in a slow lumbering frame.

I was going through my book collection over the weekend when I realized something

Between 1971 and 1999, there were multiple occasions where India primed up, rumbled and bumbled its formations to launch points only for Unkil to snap its fingers and tell it - Dont you dare.

1999 - We went overboard to show the world we are good guys, even to point of not crossing the LoC to get a tactical advantage.
2001 - Less said the better

All these events culminating in Sindoor. From 1971 to 2025 - few things have stayed constant

Pakistan is financially hamstrung which actually forces them to use their resources more effectively.

India is slow in procurement meaning its modernization is never fully complete. Platforms come 10-15 years late and 5 years into the service are already behind the cutting edge. Folks who have followed the IAF of the old days will smile and recount the Jaguar acquisition, the FinMin and MEA clowns trying to find ways to reduce proposed numbers for Mirage 2000s, MiG-29s etc.

Finally, the world powers which see India as an irritant. So Pakistan comes in handy as the tavern *censored* willing to bend over in the back alley to whoever will throw a few coins and riles up India into chasing its own tail for a few years. Remember how India in the 80s, 90s asked for US airborne radar, US artillery pieces even talked about US fighters only to have Pak backed lobbyists crush the talks in infancy.

This was as true in Sindoor as it was in 1971 and the period inbetween.

You have summed up the China approach beautifully. Our pampered mandarins and their tendency to do an ostrich like head in the sand move with respect to China has caused us irreparable damage.

 

[Tejasmk3]

## 2. Cost implications

| Parameter | Unit estimate | 800-jet bill (ex-engines) |
|-----------|---------------|---------------------------|
| Indigenous Su-30MKI fly-away cost | ₹450–500 cr/jet[14][15] | ₹3.6–4.0 lakh crore |
| Super Sukhoi upgrade (84 jets) | ₹63,000 cr[11][13] | additional |
| 12 replacement Su-30MKI (2024 deal) | ₹13,500 cr[16] | – |

Total exceeds **₹4.3 lakh crore**—more than double the entire MoD capital budget for all three services in FY 2024-25. Committing this to one airframe would crowd out transports, AWACS, tankers, drones, SAMs and space assets for a generation.

4.3 lakh crores divided over 10 years, so 43,000 crores per year for 82 jets. + upgrade of 84 jets
How much Rafale 36 jets costed? and you will get your answer.
How much any new platform will cost?

**Maintenance resilience** – A fleet of ~560 Su-30s already ties half of IAF spares and simulator budgets to one airframe. Tripling that exposure magnifies ground-ing risk from a single critical defect.

560?

3. **Training pipeline** – Every extra Su-30 squadron needs twin-seat conversion, costing twice the flying hours per pilot compared with single-engine trainers.

https://******/threads/tejas-mkii-embraces-adaptability-with-potential-twin-seater-variant.7273/

New platforms are just too costly and time consuming.
IAF needs 3 platforms only
Tejas MK1
Sukhoi 30 MKI / Tejas MK3
and one more which will not be AMCA.

All suited with varied roles.

By the time, IAF/MoD shortlist and finalise new platform, in that time, even India makes 12 jets p.a. almost squadron will be ready.

**Air-frame redesign** – The AL-51F is wider and produces 18-20 kN more thrust than the AL-31FP. Su-30MKI’s inlets, mounts, air-intake control system and FADEC would all need fresh structural qualification. Any “simple drop-in” claim ignores flight-safety certification rules.

please do research.

General characteristics​

• Type: Two-shaft turbofan engine
• Length: ~4.9 m (190 in) (comparable to AL-41F1)
• Diameter: ~1.28 m (50 in) (comparable to AL-41F1)
• Dry weight: 1,450 kilograms (3,200 lb)

AL-31 and AL-41F1 engine are compatible

The Su-57 is powered by a pair of NPO Lyulka-Saturn izdeliye 117, or AL-41F1, augmented turbofans. The engine is a highly improved and uprated variant of the AL-31 and produces 9 tonnes (88.3 kN, 19,840 lbf) of dry thrust, 14.5 tonnes (142.2 kN, 31,970 lbf) of thrust in afterburner, and 15 tonnes (147.1 kN, 33,070 lbf) of thrust in "special" emergency power. The engines have full authority digital engine control (FADEC) and are integrated into the flight control system to facilitate maneuverability and handling. The AL-41F1 is closely related to the Lyulka-Saturn izdeliye 117S engine, or AL-41F1S, used by the Su-35S, with the latter's separate engine control system being the key difference.

Please read below carefully. Al-51F engine has been adapted for replacement of AL-41F engine with minimal changes to the airframe

So, going by the logic, Al-51F engine can be used in place of AL-31F engine.

The planned Su-57M will be equipped with a new engine from NPO Saturn in the mid-2020s under the development designation izdeliye 30 and eventually designated AL-51F-1. The powerplant is designed with an estimated thrust of 11 tonnes (107.9 kN, 24,300 lbf) dry and 17 tonnes (167 kN, 37,500 lbf) in afterburner. In addition to improved performance, reliability, and costs compared to the AL-41F1, the AL-51F-1 will also reduce the aircraft's radar and infrared signature with glass-fibre plastic IGVs and a new nozzle with serrated flaps. In 2023, it was reported that UEC Saturn is developing an alternative non-axisymmetric "flat" nozzle for the Su-57; flight testing began in late 2024.[116] Because the flat nozzle was requested well after Sukhoi had finalized the Su-57 design, Saturn designed the nozzle to fit with minimal changes to the airframe

India always had amazing relations with Russia, Russia can give to India, whic they will not give to anyone.
Another way to look at it, spending 7 billion within India will be more fruitful than giving to any country.

You want to go crazier.

Substitute Ge engine in Tejas with AL-51F engine without afterburner, using its supercruise speed.
ofcourse, many factors will be involved, but food for thought.

Trust your people, and have faith in them. Otherwise, you will always be dependent on others and never free.

Sir I think you meant baboons


This is very true. India's comparison to the elephant has nothing to do with grace. Its meant to represent overpowering strength contained in a slow lumbering frame.

I was going through my book collection over the weekend when I realized something

Between 1971 and 1999, there were multiple occasions where India primed up, rumbled and bumbled its formations to launch points only for Unkil to snap its fingers and tell it - Dont you dare.

1999 - We went overboard to show the world we are good guys, even to point of not crossing the LoC to get a tactical advantage.
2001 - Less said the better

All these events culminating in Sindoor. From 1971 to 2025 - few things have stayed constant

Pakistan is financially hamstrung which actually forces them to use their resources more effectively.

India is slow in procurement meaning its modernization is never fully complete. Platforms come 10-15 years late and 5 years into the service are already behind the cutting edge. Folks who have followed the IAF of the old days will smile and recount the Jaguar acquisition, the FinMin and MEA clowns trying to find ways to reduce proposed numbers for Mirage 2000s, MiG-29s etc.

Finally, the world powers which see India as an irritant. So Pakistan comes in handy as the tavern *censored* willing to bend over in the back alley to whoever will throw a few coins and riles up India into chasing its own tail for a few years. Remember how India in the 80s, 90s asked for US airborne radar, US artillery pieces even talked about US fighters only to have Pak backed lobbyists crush the talks in infancy.

This was as true in Sindoor as it was in 1971 and the period inbetween.

You have summed up the China approach beautifully. Our pampered mandarins and their tendency to do an ostrich like head in the sand move with respect to China has caused us irreparable damage.

Enemy within are more dangerous. we are seeing just that.

 

[Subgradewalker]

4.3 lakh crores divided over 10 years, so 43,000 crores per year for 82 jets. + upgrade of 84 jets
How much Rafale 36 jets costed? and you will get your answer.
How much any new platform will cost?


560?

https://******/threads/tejas-mkii-embraces-adaptability-with-potential-twin-seater-variant.7273/

New platforms are just too costly and time consuming.
IAF needs 3 platforms only
Tejas MK1
Sukhoi 30 MKI / Tejas MK3
and one more which will not be AMCA.

All suited with varied roles.

By the time, IAF/MoD shortlist and finalise new platform, in that time, even India makes 12 jets p.a. almost squadron will be ready.



please do research.

General characteristics​

• Type: Two-shaft turbofan engine
• Length: ~4.9 m (190 in) (comparable to AL-41F1)
• Diameter: ~1.28 m (50 in) (comparable to AL-41F1)
• Dry weight: 1,450 kilograms (3,200 lb)

AL-31 and AL-41F1 engine are compatible



Please read below carefully. Al-51F engine has been adapted for replacement of AL-41F engine with minimal changes to the airframe

So, going by the logic, Al-51F engine can be used in place of AL-31F engine.



India always had amazing relations with Russia, Russia can give to India, whic they will not give to anyone.
Another way to look at it, spending 7 billion within India will be more fruitful than giving to any country.

You want to go crazier.

Substitute Ge engine in Tejas with AL-51F engine without afterburner, using its supercruise speed.
ofcourse, many factors will be involved, but food for thought.

Trust your people, and have faith in them. Otherwise, you will always be dependent on others and never free.

Enemy within are more dangerous. we are seeing just that.

You living in fantasy of some kind? Atleast read full analysis. Don't just cherry pick and answer. 82 FA/Year! Are we making toys?

84 super sukhoi cost 34000 cr for upgrades. The cost of su30mki does not include the super version.

Then HAL itself.. a beacon of reliability? .. russia a good partner? Read some history beyond youtube.

Al-41 is comparable to Al31. Then Al41 is slightly modified to make Al 51. ... It's a jet engine powering different FA!!! ( ≈≠=). And AL-51 is in "development". Claims and result are two different things.

It's a FA aircraft , A jet engine.. they are technology marvels.. doesn't work on the concept of jugaad. They work on the edge of physics.

Even a slight tweak results in difference in performance needing to recalibrate the FA subsystems.. let alone two different engines meant for two different FA. I need to research? Logic? Was some new definition of logic was invented today?


Trust own people? What do you think AMCA is? An off the shelf project? Foreign project? Kinda contradictory, don't you think?
And now you're saying India doesn't need 5th gen in long term? Bro, we are talking about FA. even missiles needs upgrades to stay relevant in increasing tech race bw nations. Let alone FA. 800.. even 8000 4.5 gen would be useless of not led by and backed by advanced jets and radars. It's easier to produce 8000 missiles to down those FA. Let alone 800.


I don't know what your intentions are.. i am gonna assume they are in good faith. But they are fantasy, not practical. And don't have an iota of knowledge of air warfare.

P.S. next time, just download Chat-Gpt, grok or perplexity.. Post your thoughts there. Ask for an unbiased, scientific and practical analysis of your thoughts. They will help you in evolution of thinking.

 

[Kiduva21]

4.3 lakh crores divided over 10 years, so 43,000 crores per year for 82 jets. + upgrade of 84 jets
How much Rafale 36 jets costed? and you will get your answer.
How much any new platform will cost?


560?

https://******/threads/tejas-mkii-embraces-adaptability-with-potential-twin-seater-variant.7273/

New platforms are just too costly and time consuming.
IAF needs 3 platforms only
Tejas MK1
Sukhoi 30 MKI / Tejas MK3
and one more which will not be AMCA.

All suited with varied roles.

By the time, IAF/MoD shortlist and finalise new platform, in that time, even India makes 12 jets p.a. almost squadron will be ready.



please do research.

General characteristics​

• Type: Two-shaft turbofan engine
• Length: ~4.9 m (190 in) (comparable to AL-41F1)
• Diameter: ~1.28 m (50 in) (comparable to AL-41F1)
• Dry weight: 1,450 kilograms (3,200 lb)

AL-31 and AL-41F1 engine are compatible



Please read below carefully. Al-51F engine has been adapted for replacement of AL-41F engine with minimal changes to the airframe

So, going by the logic, Al-51F engine can be used in place of AL-31F engine.



India always had amazing relations with Russia, Russia can give to India, whic they will not give to anyone.
Another way to look at it, spending 7 billion within India will be more fruitful than giving to any country.

You want to go crazier.

Substitute Ge engine in Tejas with AL-51F engine without afterburner, using its supercruise speed.
ofcourse, many factors will be involved, but food for thought.

Trust your people, and have faith in them. Otherwise, you will always be dependent on others and never free.

Enemy within are more dangerous. we are seeing just that.

i like your idea that we should invest in a platform readily available and maximize that to fill up squadron numbers
some problem i see are Su30 MKI is a metal , heavy, low availability (compared to Rafael) which make investing the same money in another platform like SU35 which has some advantage like composite and better engine . but considering that it is not low observable we may have to look to SU57 + AL51 which is not ready and we pulled out of it for a reason.

next option is Rafael which is still a medium weight but solve some other issues but major problem is cost.

Tejas all version is using US engines we may be very restricted to their control and no TOT.

Best option looks going back in a time machine and keep kaveri alive.

super SU30 mki with AL51 580 units	Stage Estimated Time R&D + engine integration 3–5 years First flight + certification 3–4 years Production 13–14 years Total timeline ~18–20 years (completion by ~2046–47)	air frame designed in 80s to use in 2050s very high risk even pak will have squadrons of 5th gen FA
tejas with RD33	~8–9 years total from concept to production readiness First flight possible by 2029, full production around 2033–34 Timelines could shift faster by 2 years if a crash program is initiated with Russian help or reverse-engineered RD-93 data is used	more control over program but risk sanctions for using Russian tech probably lower cost
Rafael 580 units	Years Output Schedule Annual Rate Cumulative Total 2025–2027 License & facility setup – ~0 2028–2029 Pilot production ramp 12–15/year ~24–30 2030–2033 Scale up 24–30/year ~120–150 2034–2043 Full production 24–30/year ~430–456 By 2043 Total: 580 jets made — 580	Very expensive including every new updates that will come , not stealth
SU 57 , 580 units	Phase Years Action Output Planning & Agreement 2026–2029 Co-dev agreement, prototyping 0 Pilot Production 2030–2034 Local assembly, trials ~40 Full-Rate Production 2035–2045 30–40/year ~360 Final Phase 2046–2050 Block 2 variant ~180 Total 2026–2050 — 580 aircraft	risk of sanctions due to Russian tech, also we opted out of the program, i believe IAF wanted more stealthier aircraft.
Tejas MK2 current config 580	Period Annual Rate Units Delivered Cumulative Total 2029–30 16 ~32 ~32 2031–33 24 ~72 ~104 2034–36 30 ~90 ~194 2037–40 35 ~140 ~334 2041–46 40 ~240 ~574	Risk of USA arm twisting , kill switch etc expensive probably due to imported engine. but better than anything previously mentioned.
AMCA with indo french engine	Period Annual Build Rate Units Built Cumulative Total 2035–2037 10–15/year ~40 ~40 2038–2042 20–30/year ~120–150 ~160–190 2043–2047 30–40/year ~200 ~360–390 2048–2050 40–50/year ~170–220 ~580 total	probably most expensive but best option due to full control (hope so)

any change in Tejas mk2 is going to make 10 more years delayed
Rafael order will be needed to make sure french involvement in AMCA engine program else they can leave us stranded.

Questions like why we did not started this same process at 2011 when IAF asked GOI for 189 Rafael is unanswered.


in the end best option i think will be a mix of
Tejas MK2 with GE 414 - 200 nos by 2035
Rafael - 180 nos by 2035
AMCA - 300 nos by 2045

that too if we do every thing correct now

 

[Harpy1]

I think we can assume no USA fighters for now
Better get su57 deal signed now

 

[Prokion]

I think we can assume no USA fighters for now
Better get su57 deal signed now

Most probable is a rafale deal, with the trump riot ongoing, doubt the Gov is gonna risk a SU-57 deal.

 

[Kiduva21]

Most probable is a rafale deal, with the trump riot ongoing, doubt the Gov is gonna risk a SU-57 deal.

We should make a combined offer like we make the indo french engine for AMCA only if we get an agreement with 100% TOT for that engine we should sign more Rafale add 3 more scorpene to sweeten the deal.

 

[Harpy1]

Most probable is a rafale deal, with the trump riot ongoing, doubt the Gov is gonna risk a SU-57 deal.

We need low observations fighter and Ata

 

[jmaxwell_]

Former IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria (Retd.) shares his concern that procuring imports not only saps the willpower, energy and confidence of the teams working on AMCA, but will also be a long and costly venture to integrate Indian weapons and other components on to the platform. This attitude of "let's meet our immediate requirement and then we will see later" has led to this continuous cycle.

Sorry to pour cold water on all this excitement around procuring Su57s, F-35s and MRFA Rafales (vis-a-vis LCAMk2). And this is the ACM saying it.