Indian Air Force : Updates & Discussions

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Parthu said:
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@Ashwin @Rajput Lion @RationalGuy @Lolwa
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Where are those who said we won't buy a stopgap 5th gen fighter as MRFA/Rafale + AMCA was enough to take on PLAAF/PAF VLO/ELO fighters?

Anyways, you know my take on this. We're going to procure 60-80 Su-57Es from Russia. Then a huge order of 120+ jets is prepared to be manufactured from 2030 onwards. AMCA won't be ready for war before 2040 and Chinese J-36 & J-50 has made our military planners very worried. IAF has always maintained internally that Su-30 MKI UPG. & Rafale combo was good enough for J-20 & J-35. But they know that to take on J-36/50 they need the original FGFA which we wanted from Russia. After procuring Su-57Es, the next batch would consist of these FGFA specced Su-57s.

All details will come out in public in due time.

PS: F-35 is OUT.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
Where are those who said we won't buy a stopgap 5th gen fighter as MRFA/Rafale + AMCA was enough to take on PLAAF/PAF VLO/ELO fighters?

Anyways, you know my take on this. We're going to procure 60-80 Su-57Es from Russia. Then a huge order of 120+ jets is prepared to be manufactured from 2030 onwards. AMCA won't be ready for war before 2040 and Chinese J-36 & J-50 has made our military planners very worried. IAF has always maintained internally that Su-30 MKI UPG. & Rafale combo was good enough for J-20 & J-35. But they know that to take on J-36/50 they need the original FGFA which we wanted from Russia. After procuring Su-57Es, the next batch would consist of these FGFA specced Su-57s.

All details will come out in public in due time.

PS: F-35 is OUT.
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The Americans are still smarting from their loss in MMRCA. Expect GoI to come under a lot of pressure from both Russia and the US to buy their respective 5G jets now.

To placate/soften the blow for Trump, GoI may need to go the tender route, pitting F-35 vs Su-57 in competitive trials.

The F-35 has had it easy all this while as the West's only operational and export approved 5G jet. If both the US and Russia agree to fly-offs of the two jets in India, we'll have pulled off major coup.

Although our track record with fighter tenders is dismal, we'd be able to objectively assess both jets and make the best choice in terms of capability, sovereignty/opsec and cost.
 
Speedster1 said:
The Americans are still smarting from their loss in MMRCA. Expect GoI to come under a lot of pressure from both Russia and the US to buy their respective 5G jets now.

To placate/soften the blow for Trump, GoI may need to go the tender route, pitting F-35 vs Su-57 in competitive trials.

The F-35 has had it easy all this while as the West's only operational and export approved 5G jet. If both the US and Russia agree to fly-offs of the two jets in India, we'll have pulled off major coup.

Although our track record with fighter tenders is dismal, we'd be able to objectively assess both jets and make the best choice in terms of capability, sovereignty/opsec and cost.
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No F-35 for IAF. It's not being considered at all. Su-57 might be the last jet we ever import.
 
South block said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1942098818054664578
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I'd play @Lolwa here & say get the first two. We already have the Meteors all that confusion of whether it's been successfully integrated notwithstanding but the Astra Mk-3 ( Gandeeva) & Mk-4 will only be inducted post 2030 .

If possible speed up the development process of the last two missiles such that we get them into mass production by 2028-29 & if not the Mk-4, we can certainly attempt to do so for the Mk-3.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
Where are those who said we won't buy a stopgap 5th gen fighter as MRFA/Rafale + AMCA was enough to take on PLAAF/PAF VLO/ELO fighters?

Anyways, you know my take on this. We're going to procure 60-80 Su-57Es from Russia. Then a huge order of 120+ jets is prepared to be manufactured from 2030 onwards. AMCA won't be ready for war before 2040 and Chinese J-36 & J-50 has made our military planners very worried. IAF has always maintained internally that Su-30 MKI UPG. & Rafale combo was good enough for J-20 & J-35. But they know that to take on J-36/50 they need the original FGFA which we wanted from Russia. After procuring Su-57Es, the next batch would consist of these FGFA specced Su-57s.

All details will come out in public in due time.

PS: F-35 is OUT.
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More than anything else, it's time GoI , MoD, ADA / DRDO & IAF sit down, put their heads together ( no sweetie, it's not what you think it means @Innominate ) & come up with a study for the requirement of an AHCA as an answer / equivalent to the J-36 / NGAD / SCAF / GCAP such that we sanction the damn thing for development by 2030 at the latest so that we can see the first TD / prototype flying by 2038-40.

Secondly we need to see how best the AMCA Mk-2 can go up against the J-36 + J-50 combo & make the necessary design changes now plus develop whatever new technologies that needs to be developed to do that job .

MKI isation of the Su-57 is a decade plus job. Do we have the resources for it & I don't mean just the financial resources here especially in the light of the above information ?

We need to consider whatever we're getting is good enough to tide us over the period between 2025-30 . All other considerations like what do we do between 2030-40 is of secondary importance here.

For all this to happen, our security establishment first needs to figure out the threat assessment & when's it likely to manifest itself. We've no such National Security Doctrine in public though there may be one in private circulation.

However I've yet to see much urgency in implementation on the ground. For starters the DPP-25 which was supposed to be released this May is now being released towards either the end of this year or early next year.

Then there's the 120 KN TF on which not only the future of the AMCA Mk-2 rests but subsequent plans like the AHCA too apart from perhaps the LCA Mk-2 during its MLU.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
No F-35 for IAF. It's not being considered at all. Su-57 might be the last jet we ever import.
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Be that as it may. But the GoI will need to (aleast appear to) give a level playing field to both. For context, the IN had been eyeing the Rafale since the days of (former CNS) Adm. Arun Prakash. It was pretty clear right from the start they wouldn't settle for anything else. Besides, they'd have known all too well that the SH B3 would be just too big for the Vikrant's lifts.

Yet, the IN went through the hassle of launching a formal tender and then downselecting Rafale (with many concessions at that).

Considering that Trump himself has pitched the F-35, a tender might be the only way out for GoI to avoid ruffling feathers. We're in the middle of negotiating a trade agreement with the US currently and "market access" is a key sticking point right now. We'll have to play our really cards well here.
 
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Putin is visiting India at a time when we are about to sign a new 10-yr defence pact with the US.

With the DefSec stating that India is in the market for a 5G fighter, things have suddenly got very interesting.

Can we play both sides off each other and get the best deal? That, my friends, is the question.
 
Rajput Lion said:
Where are those who said we won't buy a stopgap 5th gen fighter as MRFA/Rafale + AMCA was enough to take on PLAAF/PAF VLO/ELO fighters?

Anyways, you know my take on this. We're going to procure 60-80 Su-57Es from Russia. Then a huge order of 120+ jets is prepared to be manufactured from 2030 onwards. AMCA won't be ready for war before 2040 and Chinese J-36 & J-50 has made our military planners very worried. IAF has always maintained internally that Su-30 MKI UPG. & Rafale combo was good enough for J-20 & J-35. But they know that to take on J-36/50 they need the original FGFA which we wanted from Russia. After procuring Su-57Es, the next batch would consist of these FGFA specced Su-57s.

All details will come out in public in due time.

PS: F-35 is OUT.
Click to expand...

Don't discount the F-35 yet. They are not going to decide on anything without an MRCBF class procurement system.

Anyway nothing concrete's gonna happen this decade. It's just a political maneuver. Just Trump getting his string pulled for the next few years as the program flounders through more expected delays. So this statement is nothing special.

Such things have been used before as a distraction during previous tenders too. During MMRA, FGFA kept Russia distracted from their Mig-35 loss in 2010 and this time the US and Russia will get pulled along for a ride while MRFA works in favor of the Europeans. We will sign MRFA by 2029 or so, and then backtrack on this stealth jet program 'cause "AMCA's a success, so we need a better jet than F-35 or Su-57."

In the meantime, all 3 European contenders will try and offer alternative GTG deals outside the tender, not just the Americans and Russians.

Btw, this statement is aimed at the US, not Russia. We can't avoid the F-35 debate with Trump, regardless of whether it benefits the IAF or not.

If the Russians have any hope of winning MRFA, they have to participate with the Su-57, that's their only way in.
 
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South block said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1942098818054664578
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R-37M is in a different class from SkySting, Meteor, and Gandiva. It's good for anti-HVA role, not as a regular AAM. The Russians are also using it as a stopgap due to the lower sophistication of Ukraine's air force.

It's unclear at what stage of development SkySting is at right now, and things could get delayed significantly due to the need for integration and trials. It's possible it needs customer money to finish development too.

Gandiva remains the best option. It's under captive trials already, that's not very far from entering production. Two test flights have been conducted too.

Astra Mk2 will be production ready by early 2027. We can assume Sting sits between Mk2 and Gandiva, so it can function as a decent stopgap, but becomes pointless if it's under development too, especailly if we are expected to fund it.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
India would be foolish to choose Su-57? Maybe, we already have;)
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Aroor is a 'tard. He can't even hold a gun properly. Let's not take his opinion seriously in anything. He is a pretty face poser.
Now coming to su-57 stealth. The su-57 is required for firing the r-37m and the k-77 and gandiva. That's it's job. It's not meant to fight into enemy airspace. It's a counter stealth fighter and air-superiority. With KH-101 we will have capability to strike deep inside enemy lines at very low cost. No need to waste scalp shadows for minor strike mission. And the ALCM is still not ready we need something on the lines of the ak in terms of cruise missiles and kh-101 fits it very well.
Su-57 will do both the rafales and mki's job. With s-400 it's only logical we get the su-57.
But this also makes for purchase of the f-35 for anti-ew and deep strike interdiction missions.
 
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randomradio said:
Don't discount the F-35 yet. They are not going to decide on anything without an MRCBF class procurement system.
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It's OUT. Just wait for official confirmation.
randomradio said:
Anyway nothing concrete's gonna happen this decade. It's just a political maneuver. Just Trump getting his string pulled for the next few years as the program flounders through more expected delays. So this statement is nothing special.

Such things have been used before as a distraction during previous tenders too. During MMRA, FGFA kept Russia distracted from their Mig-35 loss in 2010 and this time the US and Russia will get pulled along for a ride while MRFA works in favor of the Europeans. We will sign MRFA by 2029 or so, and then backtrack on this stealth jet program 'cause "AMCA's a success, so we need a better jet than F-35 or Su-57."

In the meantime, all 3 European contenders will try and offer alternative GTG deals outside the tender, not just the Americans and Russians.

Btw, this statement is aimed at the US, not Russia. We can't avoid the F-35 debate with Trump, regardless of whether it benefits the IAF or not.

If the Russians have any hope of winning MRFA, they have to participate with the Su-57, that's their only way in.
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Su-57 is coming in a G-to-G deal. Just wait for few months for the "official confirmation" ;)

PS: DefSec has already accepted that a foreign 5th gen is going to come as a stop-gap before AMCA fully matures for war(~2040).
 
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Speedster1 said:
Putin is visiting India at a time when we are about to sign a new 10-yr defence pact with the US.
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That is more for continuous engine supply and other critical tech(like P8i) etc. We ain't ever buying a fighter jet from goo' ol' 'Murica. Mark it.
Speedster1 said:
With the DefSec stating that India is in the market for a 5G fighter, things have suddenly got very interesting.
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Same def sec said few months ago that there is no proposal to buy F-35s. GOI is in serious and quite advance talks with Russia to assemble 80-100 Su-57Es at Nashik plant. Just wait for few months and official confirmation would come.
Speedster1 said:
Can we play both sides off each other and get the best deal? That, my friends, is the question.
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If you're implying that by giving signal of buying Su-57s, we could cut a great deal of F-35, then the answer is no. LocMart and US Gov, both want IAF to first buy 114 F-21s, then ONLY F-35 would be offered. Will that happen? The answer is still NO.

GOI & IAF want a 5th gen ASF, which Su-57 exactly is, to take on Chinese & Pakistani 5th/6th gen jets. F-35 is a strike fighter which is completely useless against Chinese A2/AD bubble, that's why USAF requires F-47 & B-21s.

Thankfully our military planners are way more smart than average key-board warriors who think US= Great while Russia= Crap. Reality is Su-57 is the best 5th gen out there in market which is designed to hunt down F-22 & F-35. That's why both GOI & IAF has decided to procure it in substantial numbers.
 
randomradio said:
R-37M is in a different class from SkySting, Meteor, and Gandiva. It's good for anti-HVA role, not as a regular AAM.
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It's a myth that R-37M can't do role of regular AAM..... It's a single biggest reason keeping current Ukrainian Airforce inventory of fighter jet at bay.

According to Ukrainian pilots, the R-37M isn't achieving a lot of "hard kills", the destruction of actual Ukrainian aircraft. However, their launch forces pilots to abandon their current mission and take evasive action.
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As for Gandiva & Meteor they have limitations which can only be fulfill by LR-BVRAAM in the class of R-37M & AIM-174B ........ Already posted about it a while back.
Only way for High RCS fighters like SU 30 MKI to survive future wars is to fire heavy payloads from safer distances.
 
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