Air Engagement of Operation Sindoor : Analysis

We should just buy Su 57 Platform. RAM, AESA, EW and other missiles should be ours Except R 37.

First, we need the jet to become operational, that's at least end 2026 or early 2027. Then we have to wait a few years for operational data to come in, post which Russia will try and fix any deficiencies they find. Then we can choose the airframe/engine and pack it with our stuff.

It's too early for us to enter the program anytime this decade.
 
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We aren't media controlled like India,
It is a ridicules proposition You only have to watch foxtel sky, to see them bag out the government,
You also have the government owned station ABC, that show no mercy to the government , they are independent
Every government has ways to execute things they want, some does openly while some other uses different means. Then there is always presence of oligarchy.
 
Main questions should be why we are behind in terms of AWACS and EW planes compared to a failed state which hasn't even gotten rid of polio.
There are multiple questions that need to asked by the opposition parties in India with regards to India's defence acquisition/procurement procedures. Also, the excessive dependence by the MoD on DPSUs is here for all to see. However, I have full faith that none of these questions will be raised by these politicians. The INC itself is no longer interested in the defence sector. The behaviour exhibited by them has been a let down and down right abhorrent.

There exist multiple solutions to this question. The government is clearly aware of them. I understand the mindset of the so called 'Indian neta'. The major letdown has not been the neta but the babu behind them. Inspite of clearing the so called 'most difficult' exam for bureaucrats none of them possess the so called strategic insight necessary when it comes to meeting the IAF's requirements. Negligence at best or Blatant crippling due to vested interest at worst.
 
We should just buy Su 57 Platform. RAM, AESA, EW and other missiles should be ours Except R 37.
The Virupaksha cannot employ the r-37M.
We need whatever the Russians are giving. Sure it maybe less advanced but it has superior integration. What we really need to focus is on getting S band AEWCS and cooperative targetting capability. Get the B-net's on the su-57m.
And we need to divert all our investment in the Netra program. F-35 is out of the picture.
Our priorities should be
>Netra mk1a,mk2 and a mk3 concept
>Gandiv series and astra mk-4(triple pulse)
>License production of the su-57, su-35,al-41/51,r-37m and kh-101
>License production for the ge-404ins6.
 
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Main questions should be why we are behind in terms of AWACS and EW planes compared to a failed state which hasn't even gotten rid of polio.

Atmanirbharta.

The same reason why the army does not have advanced ATGMs, MANPADS, mobile SAMs, next gen artillery guns etc. Everybody is still waiting for the industry to deliver.
 
There are multiple questions that need to asked by the opposition parties in India with regards to India's defence acquisition/procurement procedures. Also, the excessive dependence by the MoD on DPSUs is here for all to see. However, I have full faith that none of these questions will be raised by these politicians. The INC itself is no longer interested in the defence sector. The behaviour exhibited by them has been a let down and down right abhorrent.

There exist multiple solutions to this question. The government is clearly aware of them. I understand the mindset of the so called 'Indian neta'. The major letdown has not been the neta but the babu behind them. Inspite of clearing the so called 'most difficult' exam for bureaucrats none of them possess the so called strategic insight necessary when it comes to meeting the IAF's requirements. Negligence at best or Blatant crippling due to vested interest at worst.
Many babus are from non STEM background they don't have capacity to understand the importance of such capabilities. Simple people with simple and primitive thinking. Most of them come from humble/poor background so they enter service for power prestige and money.
Atmanirbharta.

The same reason why the army does not have advanced ATGMs, MANPADS, mobile SAMs, next gen artillery guns etc. Everybody is still waiting for the industry to deliver.
Stopgap could not have been arranged? At least for AWACS with 2-3 more Israeli origin Phalcons?
 
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Main questions should be why we are behind in terms of AWACS and EW planes compared to a failed state which hasn't even gotten rid of polio.
We have an air force of jocks who don't actually understand air warfare and has delusional superiority complex of their combat doctrine. They are still under the presumption of a wvr fight at low-mid altitudes and they are more obsessed with flying expensive European and American jets so that they can be considered equal to Nato Airforces when the reality is that they lack the basic infrastructure required to actually employ Nato aircrafts effectively. It's why we have to use P-8I's for our ISR when we could just have bought ISTAR's and other western ISR aircrafts but the IAF is too obsessed with flying flashy 4.5 gen aircrafts that are already outdated in air warfare.
They don't want American aircrafts but want to copy nato tactics.
Why have the supersukhoi upgrade still not be employed? When they knew the Virupaksha is still not online why haven't they atleast done a partial upgrade of atleast 40-60 su-30mki to sm2 standard. DRDO can't do anything quick and IAF isn't interested in following iterational approach.
Their is no Airforce design bureau(if there are, correction is welcome). The airforce should be designing aircrafts instead of giving some potbellied babus and "engineers" to design ugly aircrafts that still can't be produced in respectable numbers.
The IAF wants tech superior to the west while not even having manufacturing capabilities surpassing second world countries. It has this delusion of being actually superior to western AF's. Atleast the PLAAF accepts their inferiority compared to western AF's and works on countering their capabilities. The PAF can be clobbered any day of the week but what happens if we have to fight an air war over the Himalayas. Why haven't we invested in procuring mig-31's when we need a ultra-high altitude air superiority fighter/interceptor to take on the hundreds of Flankers and j-20's that the IAF will face. Why aren't there any programmes for pl-15 and pl-17 missiles? Why wasn't the r-37m procured in 2019 itself when the Russians had already offered it for export instead of waiting uptill 2025?
THe astra mk2 will never be equal to the PLAAF version of the pl-15. How will we take on that. The pl-17 is a bigger problem with a 400-500 km range.
Also why aren't we focusing on more defence satellites instead of doing non-sensical moon exploration and Mars exploration missions which have zero strategic value for us presently?
The IAF has wasted the potential of the su-30 and the mig 29.
TBf HAL Nashik should be literally expanded to produce mig-35, su-30mki, su-57 and the su-35 and all of them can be easily produced because of engine commonality. Heck the mk1a should be re-engined with the rd-33 considering how unreliable the Americans are.
Many babus are from non STEM background they don't have capacity to understand the importance of such capabilities. Simple people with simple and primitive thinking. Most of them come from humble/poor background so they enter service for power prestige and money.

Stopgap could not have been arranged? At least for AWACS with 2-3 more Israeli origin Phalcons?
The Phalcons are useless and don't have S band cooperative tsrgetting capability. That's why IAF isn't moving with them and going for the Netra.
There is a new ELW-2090S Spectra radar that has CEC capability but it's ground based. The phalcon does have S-band but the IAF has never used it's cooperative targetting capability. Plus we don't have any BVR except for the meteor that can employ the AEWCS.
 
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We have an air force of jocks who don't actually understand air warfare and has delusional superiority complex of their combat doctrine. They are still under the presumption of a wvr fight at low-mid altitudes and they are more obsessed with flying expensive European and American jets so that they can be considered equal to Nato Airforces when the reality is that they lack the basic infrastructure required to actually employ Nato aircrafts effectively. It's why we have to use P-8I's for our ISR when we could just have bought ISTAR's and other western ISR aircrafts but the IAF is too obsessed with flying flashy 4.5 gen aircrafts that are already outdated in air warfare.
They don't want American aircrafts but want to copy nato tactics.
Why have the supersukhoi upgrade still not be employed? When they knew the Virupaksha is still not online why haven't they atleast done a partial upgrade of atleast 40-60 su-30mki to sm2 standard. DRDO can't do anything quick and IAF isn't interested in following iterational approach.
Their is no Airforce design bureau(if there are, correction is welcome). The airforce should be designing aircrafts instead of giving some potbellied babus and "engineers" to design ugly aircrafts that still can't be produced in respectable numbers.
The IAF wants tech superior to the west while not even having manufacturing capabilities surpassing second world countries. It has this delusion of being actually superior to western AF's. Atleast the PLAAF accepts their inferiority compared to western AF's and works on countering their capabilities. The PAF can be clobbered any day of the week but what happens if we have to fight an air war over the Himalayas. Why haven't we invested in procuring mig-31's when we need a ultra-high altitude air superiority fighter/interceptor to take on the hundreds of Flankers and j-20's that the IAF will face. Why aren't there any programmes for pl-15 and pl-17 missiles? Why wasn't the r-37m procured in 2019 itself when the Russians had already offered it for export instead of waiting uptill 2025?
THe astra mk2 will never be equal to the PLAAF version of the pl-15. How will we take on that. The pl-17 is a bigger problem with a 400-500 km range.
Also why aren't we focusing on more defence satellites instead of doing non-sensical moon exploration and Mars exploration missions which have zero strategic value for us presently?
The IAF has wasted the potential of the su-30 and the mig 29.
TBf HAL Nashik should be literally expanded to produce mig-35, su-30mki, su-57 and the su-35 and all of them can be easily produced because of engine commonality. Heck the mk1a should be re-engined with the rd-33 considering how unreliable the Americans are.

The Phalcons are useless and don't have S band cooperative tsrgetting capability. That's why IAF isn't moving with them and going for the Netra.
Too late for Mk1a re-engineering
 
The Virupaksha cannot employ the r-37M.
WTF?? Who said that? Virupaksha is being designed to track stealth(read -20dBsm or less) class targets at BVR ranges. What makes you think that it can't guide R-37M? Remember than R-37M's range when launched by a Flanker is 300kms. Only when a Mig-31 launches it from 65k+ altitude and Mach 2.0+ speed, it reaches its full 400kms range.

Virupaksha is designed to guide Gandiva(340+ kms max range) missile towards an agile target. It would easily guide R-37M, no problem whatsoever.
We need whatever the Russians are giving. Sure it maybe less advanced but it has superior integration. What we really need to focus is on getting S band AEWCS and cooperative targetting capability. Get the B-net's on the su-57m.
And we need to divert all our investment in the Netra program. F-35 is out of the picture.
Our priorities should be
>Netra mk1a,mk2 and a mk3 concept
>Gandiv series and astra mk-4(triple pulse)
>License production of the su-57, su-35,al-41/51,r-37m and kh-101
>License production for the ge-404ins6.
Nope. Su-35S is not required. MRFA should ONLY result in one fighter and that is Rafale. We need to order another 2-3 squadrons of F4 version and select F5 as MRFA winner.

Su-57 is imperative too and GOI is actively considering ordering 2-3 squadrons directly from Russia followed by license manufacturing of the jet in India itself with Indian avioinics.

Rafale + Su-57MKI shall form the sharp-tip of IAF's power projection in the next decade(while Tejas series forms the backbone). AMCA would be effective only in the 2040s and AHCA only in the 2050s.
 
. What makes you think that it can't guide R-37M? Remember than R-37M's range when launched by a Flanker is 300kms
The mission computer and integration will take atleast 2-3 years provided we even put the radar on the su-30mki within the next 2 years. Let's be realistic. The Virupaksha could easily fire the r-37m provided we could actually integrate within the next 2 years which is not possible so the Virupaksha could only be able to fire the r-37m by 2030 on the su-30mki if the supersukhoi upgrade is signed now.
Nope. Su-35S is not required. MRFA should ONLY result in one fighter and that is Rafale. We need to order another 2-3 squadrons of F4 version and select F5 as MRFA winner.
The su-35 and rafale fill two different roles entirely. Su-35 is less for the IAF and more for job creation and capability purposes of HAL and Indian aerospace. The su-35 for the most part is just a single seater su-30mki. It will just bring economies of scale and bring the price down for producing the al-41/51(whichever we choose) and the su-30 series.
We need to copy the Chinese playbook entirely.
The IAF needs over 200+ rafales.
Su-57 is imperative too and GOI is actively considering ordering 2-3 squadrons directly from Russia followed by license manufacturing of the jet in India itself with Indian avioinics.

Rafale + Su-57MKI shall form the sharp-tip of IAF's power projection in the next decade(while Tejas series forms the backbone). AMCA would be effective only in the 2040s and AHCA only in the 2050s.
Su-57 mki is something that will take a decade to come online.
 
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The mission computer and integration will take atleast 2-3 years provided we even put the radar on the su-30mki within the next 2 years. Let's be realistic. The Virupaksha could easily fire the r-37m provided we could actually integrate within the next 2 years which is not possible so the Virupaksha could only be able to fire the r-37m by 2030 on the su-30mki if the supersukhoi upgrade is signed now.
Even if we update BARS with a 10KW TwT, it would be able to guide R-37M. Even the 7KW version is still a monster by all means.
The su-35 and rafale fill two different roles entirely. Su-35 is less for the IAF and more for job creation and capability purposes of HAL and Indian aerospace. The su-35 for the most part is just a single seater su-30mki. It will just bring economies of scale and bring the price down for producing the al-41/51(whichever we choose) and the su-30 series.
We need to copy the Chinese playbook entirely.
The IAF needs over 200+ rafales.
Su-30MKI UPG. makes Su-35S redundant. Rafale is necesarry because IAF needs around 250 such Western birds.
Su-57 mki is something that will take a decade to come online.
Nope. If we sign a contract this Sep, then it would start to roll out from 2030 onwards from our Nashik line. Till then 30-60 Su-57Es with source code should suffice(before 2030).
 
We aren't media controlled like India,
It is a ridicules proposition You only have to watch foxtel sky, to see them bag out the government,
You also have the government owned station ABC, that show no mercy to the government , they are independent
You seem to be under the impression Foxtel is exclusively an Australian company with business interests only in Australia which it is but who are its principal stake holders ? It's News Corp & Telstra. Let's examine them shall we ?

News Corp with 50% stake has interests across the Anglo world especially the US . Do you think we think if the US squeezes Murdoch's shrivelled prunes he'd actually be man enough to refuse their "requests?"

And this is assuming the Aussie government isn't in with the US plan . Since when has the 5I cock eyed network acted out of sync with each other especially against US diktats. If the US President asks the Aussie PM to bend you can bet he'd crawl. That's exactly how AUKUS came about & le Francais booted out.

Are you insulting our intelligence pops or revealing yours ?
 
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Even if we update BARS with a 10KW TwT, it would be able to guide R-37M. Even the 7KW version is still a monster by all means.

Su-30MKI UPG. makes Su-35S redundant. Rafale is necesarry because IAF needs around 250 such Western birds.

Nope. If we sign a contract this Sep, then it would start to roll out from 2030 onwards from our Nashik line. Till then 30-60 Su-57Es with source code should suffice(before 2030).
How are we even integrating the Virupaksha with the rest of the EW systems
1751803528839.jpeg
Do tell. How are we supposed to integrate the No36B and No36L and the 101ks with the Virupaksha system. This will be worse than situation of initial integration to the mki's.
 
Stopgap could not have been arranged? At least for AWACS with 2-3 more Israeli origin Phalcons?

There's nothing wrong with Netra per se - it was already utilized in operational capacity even back in 2019 when it was running racetrack patrols along Western front to keep eyes on PAF vectors.

AFAIK, the problem is actually just from the French side - all available info points at them disallowing deep integration of the Rafale with the IAF's network-centric layout. I'm not entirely sure regarding the specifics, but I'm confident it's got nothing to do with just integration with Indian-origin platforms like Netra. It's much more systemic - even Phalcon is not an answer.

We're seeing now that even the LITENING LDP (fully NATO-spec equipment that even USAF uses) has not been integrated yet with IAF Rafales, as of recently we're having to use TALIOS instead. So if even some Israeli equipment is yet to be integrated, it's not hard to imagine that full integration with the indigenous NCW might be a ways off.

I don't know if this is because they've said no for integration or because it's something they're still working on. Let's not forget that some ISEs were omitted from public release.

At the moment, the MKI is a much more network-centric asset than Rafale for us - unfortunately, we don't have any long-range BVR missile with high NEZ like Meteor to launch from it. We actually wanted to integrate Meteor with our MKIs & Tejas (which have Indian mission computers), but MBDA said no.
 
All this discussion about this Radar and That EW suite looks redundant given the destructive capabilities of missile salvos

We need many more missiles In Thousands

Before any Air strike

We must use Pralay
Brahmos and LACM ,at least 200 ie 15 missiles on 12 important air bases ,.especially with J 35 and J 10 and F 16s

Even if they take off we must ensure that They won't have a functional airbase to return to
 
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All this discussion about this Radar and That EW suite looks redundant given the destructive capabilities of missile salvos

We need many more missiles In Thousands

Before any Air strike

We must use Pralay
Brahmos and LACM ,at least 200 ie 15 missiles on 12 important air bases ,.especially with J 35 and J 10 and F 16s

Even if they take off we must ensure that They won't have a functional airbase to return to
That's for a seperate discussion not related to this thread. I have said that we need a rocket force of atleast 1000+ BM's of different class and expand our rocket artillery capabilities by collaborating with the Brazillians.
Fact is our AD is sufficient for now for handling Pakistani drone and missile swarms. The real question is what happens when the Pakistanis and Chinese do a combined drone and ballistic missile swarm attack.
Also longer ranged BVR makes it safer for the IAF to gain easy air superiority. The r-37m can single handedly solve a lot of problems for the IAF.