Gee I dunno..... maybe because USN has more squadrons on carriers than F-35C's?
Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion
- Thread starter Domobran7
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the same reason they bought f-15, to keep the Boeing production line open, till they won their next contract
notice that they aren't buying Lm f-16
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What do you want packed there "in the middle"? Stop spouting random stuff.
Even in the American system, stealth requires standoff.
F-35 will also carry a standoff jammer using its MMP.
Typhoon EK does not penetrate, it protects the strike package against early warning systems, and the strike package penetrates. SPEAR-EW penetrates with the strike package.
PAF withdrew to depth areas and fired PL-15s from Dmax.
In 2019 too, the AMRAAMs were fired from Dmax.
Rule of thumb: Dmax is around 70% of the max range. NEZ is around 30% of the max range.
The real purpose of a dedicated standoff jammer is number of targets engaged. A fighter jet can operate closer and deliver more power towards a battery, but a Compass Call covers an entire area of operations, ie, multiple batteries.
So you have Compass Call covering the entire airspace, and individual fighters with pods like this...
...to protect the strike package heading towards a single battery, and ensure continued jamming after the strike package has disengaged.
So you need both.
Without this jamming, the weapons fired can be defeated by interceptor missiles. The only alternative is to get very close to the target and launch a missile from 10 km or less, but that defeats the purpose of using long range glide bombs.
That's the point of "standoff," the very word defines the aircraft will operate outside the engagement range of the SAM.
"Standoff range generally refers to the distance at which a weapon or device can be used or engaged without putting the user or platform at risk from the target's defensive measures or effects. It's the distance at which you can engage a target without being within the effective range of the target's weapons or defenses."
If PL-15 has a range of 300 km at an altitude of 12 km, then you will operate your jet at 350 km at 12 km. That's standoff.
As longer range weapons come along, your standoff range will increase too.
The difference is Growler doesn't accompany the strike package, hence "modified." An escort jammer operates along the outer edge of a SAM. It still falls in the category of a short range standoff jammer, which they call modified escort. Which is what Scorpius SJ and SAP-14 do too.
Most jamming support is necessary to protect the strike package from long waves (0.2 GHz - 2/4 GHz). Fighters are quite adept at using their own jammers against short wave. That's why in the infographic, you see the F-22 and F-35 using their radars for the second leg.
Rafale's ESJ will most likely be multiband, from 0.2 GHz to 4/5 GHz. The "S" stands for "support." All jets require this.
So that's what Typhoon will carry too:
Arexis Escort Jamming Pod Begins Tests Ahead of Flight Trials – JED, May 2019 - Journal of Electromagnetic Dominance
– By Richard Scott – Saab’s business unit EW has begun to perform ground qualification of a prototyp
www.jedonline.com
So Typhoon EK will escort the strike package to the point SAMs are effective, and then continue supporting the strike package from outside the SAM rings after the package penetrates the SAM rings. And the onboard Pretorian Evo EW suite will protect the strike package from short waves, ie, C to Ku/MMW band.
Rafale would do the same thing with the ESJ Rafale supporting penetration and SPECTRA protecting the strike package in tandem.
Picdel may claim Rafale doesn't require an ESJ, but that's only when using the Hammer. But with a standoff weapon, the weapon is extremely vulnerable and requires long range survivability using a standoff jammer against long waves and stand-in jammers like SPEAR-EW and small EW drones like Abhimanyu against short waves.
Then you can fire multiple SAAWs with SPEAR-EWs or multiple SCALPs with Abhimanyus, while the entire package is protected by a Compass Call or SAP-14 or ESJ.
Yes, but we chose ASRAAM over both IRIS-T and Python V.
IRIS-T failed due to its shorter range and Python V couldn't fit on the Jaguar's hardpoints.
It's necessary for the MKI but not for Rafale due to integration issues.
Or we will have to make a standalone system that cannot communicate with SPECTRA, but it won't be as capable as an integrated system.
The best option is to buy everything we can 'cause you never know what works and what does not and we only need 10-15 pods or so of each type.
As a replacement for Storm Shadow, plus Rampage is cheap, less than a million bucks.
This:
Basically, a low/mid-band jamming solution that has it's own power supply instead of the constrained internal solution. That means a pod.
Podded jammer for F-35 is just an offer by Terma (Denmark). It's mostly aimed at those Air Forces that plan to operate F35-only fleets. It would be pretty stupid (and pointless) to put a standoff jammer on a VLO jet, unless of course you don't have any other jet in hand.
USAF/USN maintain that F-35 won't be carrying any podded jammer for this role, at least for as long as the Growler is still around.
No, EK is not for standoff jamming (like ESJ) but only escort jamming. It also means that the low-band Arexis is unlikely to be involved. Only the mid/high-band ones.
Also, the EK itself is gonna be the launch platform for AARGM. So no, there ain't gonna be any penetrating manned aircraft going much further in than the EK, or atleast anywhere outside the protective bubble of EK, until after the EK has destroyed the threat radars (unless you have F-35 in hand, which all Typhoon operators save for MidEastern ones do).
You're just weakening your own argument.
If SPECTRA couldn't reliably save the Rafale even at those ranges, that doesn't inspire confidence against something like J-35 that's capable of closing the distance significantly.
I'm saying "the point of a bigger bottle is that it can hold more water" and you're saying "the point is that it can quench more thirst".
You're just arguing for sake of arguing.
There are limits. You can only pump so much power through a sensor on a certain platform. If you want to effectively jam a certain target, you can only be so far away from it. You can't just start magically jamming the same target from twice or thrice as far away as before just because the enemy managed to double the range of his AAMs against lumbering targets.
Cuz the latter is relatively straightforward (add more fuel/second pulse), but the jammer's job is much more complicated. Hint: the radar equation.
Most jamming support is necessary to protect the strike package from long waves (0.2 GHz - 2/4 GHz). Fighters are quite adept at using their own jammers against short wave. That's why in the infographic, you see the F-22 and F-35 using their radars for the second leg.
Rafale's ESJ will most likely be multiband, from 0.2 GHz to 4/5 GHz. The "S" stands for "support." All jets require this.
So that's what Typhoon will carry too:
The Arexis pods will be flown in an escort role and will jam early warning radars in support of strike packages. The pod incorporates L band and S band GaN-based AESA antennas in its fore and aft sections. It also features large externally mounted VHF and UHF fin antennas.Arexis Escort Jamming Pod Begins Tests Ahead of Flight Trials – JED, May 2019 - Journal of Electromagnetic Dominance
– By Richard Scott – Saab’s business unit EW has begun to perform ground qualification of a prototyp
View attachment 44617
So Typhoon EK will escort the strike package to the point SAMs are effective, and then continue supporting the strike package from outside the SAM rings after the package penetrates the SAM rings. And the onboard Pretorian Evo EW suite will protect the strike package from short waves, ie, C to Ku/MMW band.
Rafale would do the same thing with the ESJ Rafale supporting penetration and SPECTRA protecting the strike package in tandem.
Picdel may claim Rafale doesn't require an ESJ, but that's only when using the Hammer. But with a standoff weapon, the weapon is extremely vulnerable and requires long range survivability using a standoff jammer against long waves and stand-in jammers like SPEAR-EW and small EW drones like Abhimanyu against short waves.
Then you can fire multiple SAAWs with SPEAR-EWs or multiple SCALPs with Abhimanyus, while the entire package is protected by a Compass Call or SAP-14 or ESJ.
...Erm, how exactly is any of this contradicting what I said regarding Rafale needing all the same kit that Typhoon EK will need?
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Safran has launched development of the M88 T-REX, the future engine of the Rafale F5
June 18_opex360
Given that it will be equipped with numerous new features, will have computing power that is unmatched by its current capabilities, and will have to carry a heavier payload (including, in particular, the ASN4G hypervelocity nuclear-capable missile), the Rafale upgraded to the F5 standard will require new engines, as the current M-88s are likely to be insufficient. Hence the T-REX program, led by Safran Electronics & Defense.
However, the latter was not taken into account in the Military Programming Law [LPM] 2024-30, which instead focused on the development of the Future Combat Air System [FCAS], whose future is not entirely assured. During a parliamentary hearing last November, Safran Electronics & Defense CEO Franck Saudo expressed concern about this.
"The imperative for both Safran and the country is to maintain our expertise as a full-fledged engine manufacturer. This is a major sovereignty issue. […] In this regard, the fact that the FCAS program is delayed creates a gap that jeopardizes the maintenance of our skills. And therefore, it is absolutely imperative, without waiting for the FCAS, to flex our muscles, in the professional sense of the term, on such technologies," explained Mr. Saudo, before calling for a rapid launch of the T-REX program.
In reality, the question of a new Rafale engine has been on the table since the 2010s. At the time, Mr. Saudo's predecessor, Philippe Petitcolin, had indeed discussed a new version of the M-88 with between 80 and 90 kN of thrust. However, this option was not considered by the Ministry of the Armed Forces, as Safran was asked to conduct the Turenne study, the aim of which was to develop an "innovative" high-pressure turbine concept using more efficient materials.
Since then, the situation has changed. With the "Rafale F5" program having been launched, funding remained to be found to develop the T-REX [at least €600 million]. Has the Ministry of the Armed Forces found a solution? In the absence of official communication, we can only assume so.
Indeed, on June 17, Safran announced that it had launched risk-removal studies prior to the development of an "evolution of the M88 engine" which, "named the M88 T-REX, […] will capitalize on the proven reliability and performance of the M88 while pushing its limits with increased thrust of 9 tons with afterburner."
To this end, Safran explained that "significant localized improvements" will be made to the current M88. Thus, "the evolution of the low-pressure compressor will allow for a higher airflow [which will likely require redesigning the Rafale's air intakes], the high-pressure turbine will incorporate new materials and next-generation cooling circuits, and the nozzle will benefit from optimized aerodynamics."
These improvements will provide a 20% increase in thrust. "The M88 T-REX will retain the same strengths as the current M88 in terms of size, modularity, fuel consumption, and cost of ownership," Safran stated.
"We are proud to launch this project to develop an engine that will push the limits of the M88 to meet the evolving needs of our armed forces customers in an unstable geopolitical context," commented Christophe Bruneau, Senior Vice President of the Military Engines Division at Safran Aircraft Engines. "The development of the M88 T-REX will also allow us to complete our technology portfolio, benefiting our entire product range and strengthening our sovereignty," he added.
According to Safran, the qualification of the M88 T-REX should be aligned with the Rafale F5's entry-into-service schedule./deepl
What does that matter? That's the limitation of the jet in question, same as Gripen E.
MKI is in the same boat.
F-35 will carry the NGJ in the MMP, after Block 4 is developed.
Lol. The Arexis jammer pod I put up is what's going on the Typhoon EK. It will carry 2 such pods for operation from VHF to S band.
AARGM is a standoff missile.
You are basically describing what I have already said.
You need Typhoon EK (VHF-S)+ Praetorian Evo (C-Ku).
Similarly Rafale needs ESJ (VHF-S) + SPECTRA (C-Ku).
The only difference is the ESJ works from longer range than the Typhoon EK. Both are meant for standoff and modified escort jamming.
If a Rafale was lost, we don't know the conditions of the loss. They are guessing a crash or a friendly fire.
From what's been suggested, no jets were lost to enemy fire.
The ESJ can play no real part here anyway. J-10C is an X band radar and PL-15 uses a Ku band seeker. Neither can be defeated by ESJ or Typhoon EK. This is where SPECTRA and Praetorian come in.
I'm saying "the point of a bigger bottle is that it can hold more water" and you're saying God knows what, neither the bottle nor the water.
Huh? Yes, you can. You are always talking the opposite of established and well-known facts.
You want more power, you increase the array size, it's that simple. That's why pods provide bigger arrays.
Living, breathing example right here.
This is what the Typhoon EK will use. You can't put this on a fighter jet without compromising aerodynamics, hence you use pods. And the larger the pod, the greater the jamming distance.
The bigger the acraft, the more surface area you get, the bigger the array, the greater the power, the longer the range. It's that ridiculously elementary.
The ESJ will be able to carry even more than this if necessary.
Look at the sheer size of the NGJ.
Why don't you try explaining via the radar equation then?
Everything you said contradicts with basic logic.
You used the ESJ as an excuse to dismiss SPECTRA without understanding the complementary nature of the system or without even realizing that even stealth requires this complementary system.
As a 5th gen jet, the F-35's main weakness is it's visible to VHF and UHF radars from max range and to a certain extent to L band radars too. So the F-35 needs standoff jammer support in this frequency range or it's not survivable.
Anyway, this is what you said:
But I was lead to believe that Active Cancellation/ACT can spoof anything & penetrate by itself, evading everything by flying low
What the frick has ESJ got to do with Rafale's ACT or flying low? There's literally no relation between the two. Whether the Rafale flies high or low or uses ACT or not, the ESJ's job is to defeat VHF-S band radars from long distance, that's all. In an ideal world, the ESJ will defeat all long wave radars and communication systems and Rafale can fly in with a flying barn in tow if necessary and still survive. The ESJ's effectiveness has nothing to do with Rafale or SPECTRA or F-35 or NGAD or B-21 or anything. In an ideal world, the ESJ will even protect long range weapons from being detected. You completely lack such a basic understanding of this subject.
If long wave radars are defeated from standoff ranges, then SPECTRA has an easier job for survival. And if Typhoon EK does the same from long range, then Praetorian Evo will have an easier job. That's literally all there is to it.
If the power is no longer enough to do the job, yea it matters. The power allocated for the internal SPJ was done keeping in mind threats like R-77, that won't work well against new-generation AESA seekers.
You can fix this in one of two ways. An uprated engine with better generators hooked up to it, which is the more expensive & complicated option...or by going with a pod that has a standalone power supply, which is a cheaper & more straightforward solution.
No, this is what is going on EK:
^^ That's the same HBJ kit that Gripen-E carries on wingtips, but Typhoon can't go for aerodynamic retesting now so it'll be carrying them as pods using the hardpoint rail that's also shown above.
"Arexis was originally selected by Berlin for the electronic attack requirement in 2023, and it is the “default configuration” for Swedish Air Force Gripen E/F jets, added Corp."
Saab begins Arexis EW deliveries to Airbus for German Eurofighter Typhoons - Breaking Defense
“This [Arexis] is part of [the] Eurofighter program and Germany is now funding it, but any other Eurofighter customer, of course, could benefit from having it on board," Mikael Corp, sales director of fighter electronic warfare at Saab, told Breaking Defense.
breakingdefense.com
The 'default configuration' of Gripen-E is of course just the high-band (wingtips) & mid-band (tailfin) solution which is carried integrally. The low band is an add-on podded configuration which is optional, not default. For Typhoon operators, a low-band solution would probably only exist on the A400M standoff platform they're working on.
So yeah, there is a huge gap left here as I said. The EK is getting a huge ECM upgrade in the high-band (maybe also midband) frequencies thanks to a solution with standalone power supply. Whereas Rafale remains stuck with the internally-powered SPECTRA which is only equivalent to the vanilla Praetorian - which the Germans have already deemned insufficient for the SEAD role...and which our experience now shows is probably insufficient in several other respects as well.
The only official line is that there were losses, and the reason for the losses were deficient tactics - which were subsequently rectified before the May 10 operations. Does that sound like a crash to you?
My guess, the 'rectification' basically boiled down to not letting the Rafales (or any other jet) fly out of the protective bubble of the 8222-carrying MKIs. This is also likely how some informed people are saying that MKIs 'rescued' the Rafales.
Nobody ever even suggested friendly fire...it's kinda telling that you'd rather sling sh!t on the IAF than even consider potential deficiencies in the Rafale.
It would be lost on you given you seem to think one can drink 2 litres of water out of a 1 litre bottle if only you open your mouth wider.
Of course, all the talk Active Cancellation & low-altitude penetration to bypass long wavelengths goes out the window as soon as it turns out that hey, you need to address the IADS after all...which is what I've been saying to you in multiple conversations over this subject.
Basically, there's no difference in philosophy here as you like to believe. The French are doing the same thing that the Americans (or anyone else) are doing, just 20 years later. That's what you need to realize.
So Rafales can't penetrate into heavily defended area.
It's the ability to generate electricity power and the network to run it, the current rafale doesn't have it. You can't power a house off of a 1.5v battery
We saw Spectra, active cancelation and all the other stuff it claims - FAIL.
We will see what Arexis is like on the US EW range, exercises. Or if it sees active service.
The NGJ in comparison, is not only on another page, but also in a different book, It's like calling 4th gen and 6th gen the same
There are no plans for the F-35 to have an external EW pod, it is all done internally
We saw Spectra, active cancelation and all the other stuff it claims - FAIL.
We will see what Arexis is like on the US EW range, exercises. Or if it sees active service.
The NGJ in comparison, is not only on another page, but also in a different book, It's like calling 4th gen and 6th gen the same
There are no plans for the F-35 to have an external EW pod, it is all done internally
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Edit: Other than Israel and their EW pod, However I didn't see pods on the F-35 pictures, of them going to Iran, Is the current F-35 EW system doing what they want it to do? Parts of Block 4 updates are being put in the plane since 2018
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Seems the anti-radiation weapon AASF is indeed just a variant of the MBDA SmartGlider like Picdel said:
...and certainly not any hypersonic weapon as our buddy @randomradio was imagining it to be:
www.strategicfront.org
The SmartGlider will only have a range of around ~100 km in best case scenario (launch from high-altitude & high-speed), and considerably less (maybe 30-40 km tops) if released at low altitude. And needless to say, being a glider, the kinematics will leave much to be desired - it's survivability against AA will be significantly less compared to powered missiles like the Rudram-I/II (which can provide a strike envelope of 100-300 km while flying at high speeds of up to Mach 5.5 in transit & Mach 1+ in terminal).
Basically, integration of the Rudram-I/II on our Rafales has to be non-negotiable. Without it, Rafale is effectively useless at SEAD/DEAD against a peer threat.
And like I said before, it would be very smart if the French incorporate these missiles not just for our Rafales, but for all Rafales. The AASF can be a nice inexpensive option against poorly-defended targets or for mopping up stragglers like SPAAG radars etc. But a more capable standoff ARM has to be available before the FMAN/FMC comes (planned for ~2035 if I'm right).
...and certainly not any hypersonic weapon as our buddy @randomradio was imagining it to be:
Trump Offers F-35 Jet to India in Push for More Defense Deals
No, no, no. You ridiculously claimed the F-35 has jammers by linking an image of an F-35 showing off its RWR in post 163. This one: When it clearly says RWR, ie, radar warning "receiver." Then you made an equally ridiculous assertion: It's also interesting that they show the embedded...
www.strategicfront.org
The SmartGlider will only have a range of around ~100 km in best case scenario (launch from high-altitude & high-speed), and considerably less (maybe 30-40 km tops) if released at low altitude. And needless to say, being a glider, the kinematics will leave much to be desired - it's survivability against AA will be significantly less compared to powered missiles like the Rudram-I/II (which can provide a strike envelope of 100-300 km while flying at high speeds of up to Mach 5.5 in transit & Mach 1+ in terminal).
Basically, integration of the Rudram-I/II on our Rafales has to be non-negotiable. Without it, Rafale is effectively useless at SEAD/DEAD against a peer threat.
And like I said before, it would be very smart if the French incorporate these missiles not just for our Rafales, but for all Rafales. The AASF can be a nice inexpensive option against poorly-defended targets or for mopping up stragglers like SPAAG radars etc. But a more capable standoff ARM has to be available before the FMAN/FMC comes (planned for ~2035 if I'm right).
IMO, it is a point of concern. The Rafale does have advanced EWS SPECTRA, but again, advanced in electronics is meaningless real-world term, as every 6 months you will find more advanced technologies are available in the market. In the case of Operation Sindoor, it's proved to be an accurate operator for air-ground operations using SCALP and Hammer missiles, and if your opponent has state-of-the-art dense air defense systems, you will not be able to penetrate with the Rafale without a SEAD/DEAD operation, and then the question will be, We can do the same with the SU-30MKI and LCA MK1A. why the Rafale?
They were bought thinking better electronics and comms plus the ToT in engine tech. It was more China centric approach. But it seems IAF and DRDO have to make Rafales more lethal in offence. Good thing is they are highly up-gradable and have rpbust fail safe systems onboard, they have been tested in recent skirmish.
If Rafales didn't cross border due to ROE and Pakistanis knew we were coming then it isnt enough proof to write off Rafale. In a surprise attack, they would still penetrate deep into enemy territory. With VLO UCAVs like Neuron-2 their lethality(in F5 version) shall increase multiple times over now too.
Rafale alone can't achieve active stealth, it may require decoys and diversions. Pakistan is not a problem, think about China.
Surprize strike is a multi agency and tri services operation. Agencies will give input where is the weakest detection capability and tri services will exploit it either by drone or any other equipment in inventry.