PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

Now that the cat is out of the bag, everyone knows where we are heading. But your boy said this just few days ago and have been saying this for the last year after the news of J-35 to PAF first broke out

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@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @_Anonymous_, @YoungWolf, @Speedster1, @marich01, @Parthu, @South block, @redpanda, @Defc0n, @RASALGHUL, @D68, @Arpit, @Asterion Moloc, @Milspec, @nair, @Ironhide et al

One indication we're going in for the Su-57 would be we unfold a huge package for the Americans worth billions of USD in defence purchases.

You see that happening & you can be sure something like the Su-57 is on the way here.

 

[Speedster1]

Now that the cat is out of the bag, everyone knows where we are heading. But your boy said this just few days ago and have been saying this for the last year after the news of J-35 to PAF first broke out

View attachment 44301
@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @_Anonymous_, @YoungWolf, @Speedster1, @marich01, @Parthu, @South block, @redpanda, @Defc0n, @RASALGHUL, @D68, @Arpit, @Asterion Moloc, @Milspec, @nair, @Ironhide et al

Russia needs to come clean on Chinese components before we can even think about Su-57. If the airframe and engines are all we'd be really getting off-the-shelf, we should ask Russia for other tech like heat ablative material for hypersonic vehicles, high energy rocket motor tech, etc.

Our local programs should benefit in a tangible way. We can press home our advantage as nobody else will buy the Felon anyway.

 

[Lolwa]

Russia needs to come clean on Chinese components before we can even think about Su-57. If the airframe and engines are all we'd be really getting off-the-shelf, we should ask Russia for other tech like heat ablative material for hypersonic vehicles, high energy rocket motor tech, etc.

Our local programs should benefit in a tangible way. We can press home our advantage as nobody else will buy the Felon anyway.

Why would the Russians use Chinese components? Aircraft production especially when it comes to military is confidential that's common sense.
There is more chances of the j-20 having Russian components than the su-57 having chinese components .

Also Algeria has already ordered the Felon.

 

[randomradio]

Now that the cat is out of the bag, everyone knows where we are heading. But your boy said this just few days ago and have been saying this for the last year after the news of J-35 to PAF first broke out

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@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @_Anonymous_, @YoungWolf, @Speedster1, @marich01, @Parthu, @South block, @redpanda, @Defc0n, @RASALGHUL, @D68, @Arpit, @Asterion Moloc, @Milspec, @nair, @Ironhide et al

I used to talk about India buying Su-57 all the time before last year. I changed my mind due to new realities concerning our new goals.

The issue with the Su-57 is its Russian avionics are not fully compatible with what we need. And any attempt at Indianization, especially if we wait for war to end, will take as much time as AMCA to deliver; 2035+. And if we end up choosing vanilla Su-57 without modifications in a relatively shorter time, then it would mean our current condition is really bad and requires urgent fixes, but it does not look that way after Sindoor. The second point was my go-to argument for Su-57 inductions before 2024.

If this news is true, what's really happening is the govt is threatening the West with their big Russian stick to force them to keep to their promises. Our aerospace future is almost entirely dependent on importing engine tech from the West. F-414 will take 3-5 years for full indigenization and AMCA's engine will take 4 years for ground testing to begin. Which means we won't be looking at the Russians until 2030-35.

Alternatively, if we are looking at a much later date for induction, ie, 2040+, via successor variants with Indianization of core avionics or an India-specific variant, that's always been a possibility. Assuming AMCA falls short of bridging the gap between 2040 and 2060, an import has always been an option. So this would be the big gap-bridging program I have always talked about with focus on NGAD, SCAF, GCAP, Su-XX etc, although I think even this has become unnecessary under our new plan.

So I'm not buying into the story of any Su-57 deal until our engine deals are closed and delivered and new variants of the Su-57 are made by 2035 or so.

The main takeaways from the CNBC report (citing an unnamed source) are AMCA's RFP starting next week, and only France and UK offering full ToT and IP transfer, implying the Americans are out. This Su-57 story seems to be a lobbying effort pushed by this presumably HAL source alongside the real AMCA story. It's too early to buy into it.

 

[randomradio]

Russia needs to come clean on Chinese components before we can even think about Su-57. If the airframe and engines are all we'd be really getting off-the-shelf, we should ask Russia for other tech like heat ablative material for hypersonic vehicles, high energy rocket motor tech, etc.

Our local programs should benefit in a tangible way. We can press home our advantage as nobody else will buy the Felon anyway.

You guys need to stop falling for such ridiculous propaganda. Sukhoi cannot legally import Chinese tech for Russian forces in such development programs. The Kremlin had to make special exceptions just to import HAL's MC for Su-30SM as stopgap.

Definitely agree on everything else though. I'd like to see some more work done in terms of materials and SSN tech.

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933001800287912443

 

[Speedster1]

You guys need to stop falling for such ridiculous propaganda. Sukhoi cannot legally import Chinese tech for Russian forces in such development programs.

Nope. The Russians have JVs with Chinese firms for such staple items as fibreoptic cables for steering fpv drones. Sukhoi would have no choice but to import stuff now embargoed by the West - atleast until Russian industry comes up local substitutes. In most countries, the import of COTS components doesn't need any additional approvals.

 

[Speedster1]

Why would the Russians use Chinese components? Aircraft production especially when it comes to military is confidential that's common sense.
There is more chances of the j-20 having Russian components than the su-57 having chinese components .

No country can make every little thing goes into an ac, not one that's not crippling sanctions, at least. You may have seen reports on a downed Russian CM having Western (TSMC?) chips in its guidance system. Not just ac but the assembly lines tha make them also use Western components like CNC machines (Toshiba, etc) which the Russians are trying hard to indigenize. They are not quite there yet though.

Russia imported over 22,000 foreign-made CNC machines & components in 2023-2024 despite intl. sanctions, new investigation shows - Business and Human Rights Centre

Check out this page via the Business and Human Rights Centre

www.business-humanrights.org

 

[RationalGuy]

No country can make every little thing goes into an ac, not one that's not crippling sanctions, at least. You may have seen reports on a downed Russian CM having Western (TSMC?) chips in its guidance system. Not just ac but the assembly lines tha make them also use Western components like CNC machines (Toshiba, etc) which the Russians are trying hard to indigenize. They are not quite there yet though.

Russia imported over 22,000 foreign-made CNC machines & components in 2023-2024 despite intl. sanctions, new investigation shows - Business and Human Rights Centre

Check out this page via the Business and Human Rights Centre

www.business-humanrights.org

Shows why we need to start mass producing 28-65 nm chips ASAP.

 

[randomradio]

Nope. The Russians have JVs with Chinese firms for such staple items as fibreoptic cables for steering fpv drones. Sukhoi would have no choice but to import stuff now embargoed by the West - atleast until Russian industry comes up local substitutes. In most countries, the import of COTS components doesn't need any additional approvals.

Getting COTS tech in bulk from China is fine. It won't compromise the core systems.

The Russians have been importing anything they can for the war effort, particularly technologies related to AI and drones, but strategic systems are indigenous by law. So OFC for FPV drones has no relevance to the Su-57.

 

[randomradio]

No country can make every little thing goes into an ac, not one that's not crippling sanctions, at least. You may have seen reports on a downed Russian CM having Western (TSMC?) chips in its guidance system. Not just ac but the assembly lines tha make them also use Western components like CNC machines (Toshiba, etc) which the Russians are trying hard to indigenize. They are not quite there yet though.

Russia imported over 22,000 foreign-made CNC machines & components in 2023-2024 despite intl. sanctions, new investigation shows - Business and Human Rights Centre

Check out this page via the Business and Human Rights Centre

www.business-humanrights.org

Chips for guidance systems, radar processors, signal processors etc are not supplied by Intel, Samsung, or TSMC, it's all made in-house. They use proprietary DSPs and FPGAs that are designed and made in Russia. Mission computers use older CPUs like from the PowerPC lineup, or anything you can buy from your local electronics store.

The military doesn't use the latest and greatest like civilians do where miniaturization is key. They use stuff from a decade ago.

They get their processing from designing motherboards specific to the task, and then they stick 2 or 3 or 4 processors on each board and then have a bunch of such motherboards if necessary, all computing in parallel. All of this is done in-house.

 

[_Anonymous_]

No country can make every little thing goes into an ac, not one that's not crippling sanctions, at least. You may have seen reports on a downed Russian CM having Western (TSMC?) chips in its guidance system. Not just ac but the assembly lines tha make them also use Western components like CNC machines (Toshiba, etc) which the Russians are trying hard to indigenize. They are not quite there yet though.

Russia imported over 22,000 foreign-made CNC machines & components in 2023-2024 despite intl. sanctions, new investigation shows - Business and Human Rights Centre

Check out this page via the Business and Human Rights Centre

www.business-humanrights.org

Damn Right ! Su-57 has advanced data link to facilitate sensor fusion & a load of other data gathering sensors & graphics , processing of which requires advanced SMC nodes for the databus .

Russia has limited capabilities & capacities in this regard. It's but natural they'd turn to China after being blocked out of the western aerospace ecosystem.

When & how they develop import substitutes is a topic for another day but as of now they lack it ?! To add to their misery they're in a midst of a war where whatever they produce in limited quantities will be consumed for replacements & enhancements of existing capabilities.

Unarguably this is one of the principal reasons for delay in the S-400 systems they should have delivered in 2023 which is due as per media reports in 2026 & going by their past track record even that's not confirmed.

This could also be one of the reasons for sluggish production of the Su-57 . Then of course we've the M model in the process of being certified with the AL-51 TF which could be a contributory factor in production delays.

And we're supposed to believe Russia will promptly expedite supplies of the Su-57 were we to sign a contract with them in a short time.

Recall asking this question to @Bali78 long ago who gave a detailed explanation then .

 

[Rajput Lion]

Damn Right ! Su-57 has advanced data link to facilitate sensor fusion & a load of other data gathering requirements & graphics , processing of which requires advanced SMC nodes .

Russia has limited capabilities & capacities in this regard. It's but natural they'd turn to China after being blocked out of the western aerospace ecosystem.

When & how they develop import substitutes is a topic for another day but as of now they lack it ?! To add to their misery they're in a midst of a war where whatever they produce will be consumed for replacements & enhancements of existing capabilities.

Recall asking this question to @Bali78 long ago who gave a detailed explanation then .

Su-57 has nothing to do with China. These are all fake news propagated by anti-Russia/pro-US lobby. Don't pay any heed to these people.

Su-57 that we are about to procure shall have only Indian & Russian chips. Fact.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Su-57 has nothing to do with China. These are all fake news propagated by anti-Russia/pro-US lobby. Don't pay any heed to these people.

Su-57 that we are about to procure shall have only Indian & Russian chips. Fact.

True which is why I qualified my earlier post with the statement that we'd have to run a fine comb through their Bill of Materials to identify those components / sub components , come up with suitable alternatives then sign contracts with those alternative suppliers while awaiting deliveries.

In case they can't come from Russian & Indian sources which seeks likely at least for some of them we'd have to rely on western sources which I'm not sure would be forthcoming .

Do remember all this also has to be accomplished before 2030.

 

[Speedster1]

Getting COTS tech in bulk from China is fine. It won't compromise the core systems.

The GoI's recent decision to put China origin CCTV devices/components through extra screening should tell you that COTS tech can be compromised (software backdoor, etc).

 

[Speedster1]

Damn Right ! Su-57 has advanced data link to facilitate sensor fusion & a load of other data gathering sensors & graphics , processing of which requires advanced SMC nodes for the databus .

Btw any idea if the Felon has the regular 1553B std databus or 1776 std fibre optic ones (or whatever its GOST equivalent is)? Couldn't find anything on it.

And we're supposed to believe Russia will promptly expedite supplies of the Su-57 were we to sign a contract with them in a short time.

The Ukraine war will likely drag on for sometime, esp if the US attacks Iran. Until then, most of Russia's mil production will be geared towards supporting its forces.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Btw any idea if the Felon has the regular 1553B std databus or 1776 std fibre optic ones (or whatever its GOST equivalent is)? Couldn't find anything on it.

Google Search

 

[randomradio]

The GoI's recent decision to put China origin CCTV devices/components through extra screening should tell you that COTS tech can be compromised (software backdoor, etc).

That sort of threat has always existed for decades now. This is not something that affects strategic programs by default.

As a civvie shopping online, don't go for cheap made in China stuff for crucial electronics like CCTVs, TVs, smartphones etc. Even Chinese brand phones made in India communicate with servers in China. But you can't apply such things to a fighter jet program. As I said, everything of importance is not imported, they are designed and manufactured inhouse.

Even in India, we use our own designs. Pretty much all our missiles use homemade processors that civvies have no idea about. They use 800 nm and 350 nm production processes, which is sufficient.

Here's an example:

Desi G3OM Makes BrahMos Smarter

BANGALORE: The country on Tuesday embarked on a major mission in miniaturising missile systems by successfully testing a G3OM (GPS, GLONASS, GAGAN on a Module)

www.newindianexpress.com

Navic too has gone indigenous.

https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1962180

The Russians have had their own stuff for the military for decades, they are ahead of us in this area.

 

[Speedster1]

Google Search

That would mean no Western systems or weapons on IAF Su-57 until a MKI version is developed? Re-engineering the core avionics architecture (of a 5G jet, no jet) would surely cost a ton of money.

 

[_Anonymous_]

That would mean no Western systems or weapons on IAF Su-57 until a MKI version is developed? Re-engineering the core avionics architecture (of a 5G jet, no jet) would surely cost a ton of money.

Some items Russia used to procure from the west for the Su-57 now denied to them which has seen probable replacement by the Chinese.

Su-57 remains volatile despite its advanced specifications

The Russian fighter jet Su-57, touted as the flagship of fifth-generation aviation in Russia, draws significant interest from both Russian and Western experts.

bulgarianmilitary.com

As regards your post it depends on what's the outlook of the IAF. I don't imagine they want to re engineer the entire avionics architecture . There's no point to it. Might as well restart the FGFA project then.