Air Engagement of Operation Sindoor : Analysis

[randomradio]

This is a myth deliberately spread by the Yanks. I've seen the f-35 fly irl in aero- India. The thing has a smaller turn rate than the f-16 and is far more powerful than both the mki and rafale. I've seen them do a demonstration. Sure it cannot do the thrust vectoring stuff but it's energy retention is above average and the engine sound makes the mki and rafale sound tame. I saw all the displays and the thing was turning at far higher speeds than the f-16. There's no way f-35 is mediocre in wvr.

The F-35 cannot outturn the F-16 in STR, but exceeds the F-16 in almost every other way, like ITR, roll rates, AoA etc. I guess it should happen once it gets the engine upgrade by 2029-30.

But what the F-35 lacks is high speed and high altitude. In order to be considered an ASF, your jet needs to be able to climb from 8-12 km to 15-18 km in the fastest time possible and launch a missile at the fastest speed possible to gain the greatest advantage possible against the adversary. It also needs to be able to pull the highest Gs possible at supercruise speeds. If your jet isn't as good as the adversary's at this, then you're in trouble. And if your jet cannot do this, then it's not an ASF.

The F-35 cannot do this. It's been built to operate very well below 8 km altitude. That's why all the top F-35 operators are working on new ASF designs to compensate for this drawback, Like KF-21, KAAN, and Typhoon/GCAP.

Now, when people say the F-35 can do A2A missions, it's within the capacity of the F-16C, not the F-15C. It basically relies on stealth and primarily the weapon to get the job done, but mostly against 4th gen. If an enemy ASF like the Su-57 shows up with less stealth and an inferior weapon, it will still kill the F-35 'cause the Su-57 will command the heights using superior kinematics.

Nobody talks about how badly the F-22 mauls the F-35 in exercises.

 

[randomradio]

You forget the French

That's taken for granted.

 

[Innominate]

You forget the French

Since your supa dupa jet was shot down by an export chicom J-10 what you frenchies think is irrelevant. Rafale is 0-1 maybe, 0-3, but for now 0-1 in air to air combat now let that sink in nice and deep.

 

[Lolwa]

Since your supa dupa jet was shot down by an export chicom J-10 what you frenchies think is irrelevant. Rafale is 0-1 maybe, 0-3, but for now 0-1 in air to air combat now let that sink in nice and deep.

Tbf it never was part of an a2a mission. It was on an a2g mission with no meteors.

 

[Saaho]

No, we think that the Rafales flown by the Indians have done a very good job and that those who criticise them are doing so because they don't know what happened or, of course, because they are defending the interests of the Pakistanis. But it's not for us to say, we don't want to help India's enemies.

One can be best trained soldier and have best guns and what not.. but it takes one bullet in right place to put him down. Alexander died due to a mosquito bite. A single engagement, a single battle does not define anything. In operation Barbarosa, Russian aircrafts were bombed and destroyed on ground in their neat rows by invading Nazi Luftwaffe. The same planes were super effective in battles of Caucasus mountains.

 

[D68]

No, we think that the Rafales flown by the Indians have done a very good job and that those who criticise them are doing so because they don't know what happened or, of course, because they are defending the interests of the Pakistanis. But it's not for us to say, we don't want to help India's enemies.

What is your opinion on this France 24 report?

Chinese weapons pass combat test in India-Pakistan clash – with flying colours

The recent military engagement over Kashmir by South Asia’s arch enemies saw India deploy its French and US weapons against Pakistan’s new range of sophisticated Chinese arms. In its first battlefield…

www.france24.com

 

[Innominate]

What about General Hostage? He was the commander of the Air Combat Command and controlled both the F-22 and F-35 fleets. He says the F-35 is not an ASF.

There are other people too.

Why the F-35 Isn’t Good Enough for Japan

Tokyo looks to American and indigenous alternatives as a result of the joint strike fighter’s shortcomings.

thediplomat.com

U.S. military officials and numerous think tanks have repeatedly stressed that the F-35 is not an air superiority platform and cannot replace the F-15. Former Air Force chief of staff General Mark Welsh stated that the F-35 “was never designed to be the next dog fighting machine. It was designed to be the multipurpose, data-integration platform that could do all kinds of things in the air-to-ground arena including dismantle enemy, integrated, air defenses. It had an air-to-air capability, but it was not intended to be an air-superiority fighter. That was the F-22.” Air Combat Command chief General Mike Hostage similarly stated regarding the F-35’s lack of air superiority capabilities: “If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22.” Stressing the Raptor’s importance, Hostage predicted that, while the F-35 was unsuitable for an air superiority role, the F-15 would be obsolete by 2024.

You can lie to yourself to shape reality, but reality is something else entirely.

You need high altitude and high speed to be counted as an ASF. That's the most basic requirement.

Or are you saying you know more than USAF Generals?

Along with the Marine Corps and Air Force, the F-35C is a Navy aviation acquisition priority, Miller said.

“The F-35C will form the backbone of Navy air combat superiority for decades to come,” he said, adding its unique capabilities can’t be matched by modernizing the F-35 fourth-generation aircraft.

With the F-35, the carrier strike group of the future will be more lethal, survivable and able to accomplish the entire spectrum of mission sets to include immediate response to high-end threats, the admiral said.

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/1086174/f-35-program-makes-significant-solid-progress-official-says/

“It’s been an honor to serve alongside so many great leaders and support our nation and allies,” said Bogdan. “The F-35 weapon system is now operational and forward deployed. The size of the fleet continues to grow and we are rapidly expanding its capability. The F-35 will form the backbone of United States air combat superiority for decades to come and I know the program is in good hands as we transition leadership today to Vice Admiral Winter.”

New Program Executive for F-35 Lightning II office

With a commitment to carry the F-35 program forward, a new leader took charge of the Lightning II program office at a ceremony at Fort Myer, Virginia on May 25.

www.dvidshub.net

You purposely leave out the context Of Gen Hostage. He was fighting the cuts of the F-15 and when he made the remark of it takes 8 F-35's to do what 2 F-22's can do he was also trying to get funding for upgrades for F-22's he cleverly used and example where F-35's are carrying internal air to ground load which means it only carries 2 BVR missiles. So 8 F-35's each carrying 2 BVR missiles equal the amount of missiles 2 F-22's carrying BVR missiles. We've done this cht before but I guess your narrative needs to be justified when it comes to the F-35 especially when one of your narratives was the Rafale was more than enough to take on the J-20. Oops!

Tbf it never was part of an a2a mission. It was on an a2g mission with no meteors.

Doesn't matter. Frenchies keep harping Rafale is omnirole and can do both at the same time.

 

[Spitfire6]

What about General Hostage? He was the commander of the Air Combat Command and controlled both the F-22 and F-35 fleets. He says the F-35 is not an ASF.

There are other people too.

Why the F-35 Isn’t Good Enough for Japan

Tokyo looks to American and indigenous alternatives as a result of the joint strike fighter’s shortcomings.

thediplomat.com

U.S. military officials and numerous think tanks have repeatedly stressed that the F-35 is not an air superiority platform and cannot replace the F-15. Former Air Force chief of staff General Mark Welsh stated that the F-35 “was never designed to be the next dog fighting machine. It was designed to be the multipurpose, data-integration platform that could do all kinds of things in the air-to-ground arena including dismantle enemy, integrated, air defenses. It had an air-to-air capability, but it was not intended to be an air-superiority fighter. That was the F-22.” Air Combat Command chief General Mike Hostage similarly stated regarding the F-35’s lack of air superiority capabilities: “If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22.” Stressing the Raptor’s importance, Hostage predicted that, while the F-35 was unsuitable for an air superiority role, the F-15 would be obsolete by 2024.

You can lie to yourself to shape reality, but reality is something else entirely.

You need high altitude and high speed to be counted as an ASF. That's the most basic requirement.

sigh

the reason Hostage and others were saying this is because saying the F-35 can do what the F-22 can either kills the F-22 or kills any F-22 upgrades or future funding. What he is saying is the F-35 can do air to air but the F-22 can do air superiority. Technically F-22 is "air dominance" but whatever. it is assuredly so that the F-35 was not designed as an air superiority fighter and was designed as a multi-role aircraft. BUT what must be emphasized is that most F-35 specifications and statistics are with its strike load. in other words thousands of kilos of bombs. remove the bombs and add only AAM and the F-35 is fairly sleek and nimble itself along with being the closest analog to the F-22. F-22 and F-35 are both AMRAAM/Aim9 dominant. F-22 carriers more, but 6 AMRAAM are on the way for F-35? The F-35 has better range than the F-22 and is going to be more prevalent and more common than the F-22. it does have advantages over F-22. it not nearly as clear cut as "this airplane says air superiority in the description, but this other airplane does not"
comparisons of the two in terms of weapons and other claims the F-35 does have better sensors than the F-22. we are told the stealth is "better" better how is not clear exactly. its interesting position to take when we have a WIP f-35 that has better characteristics than a "finished" F-22 but the F-35 is still considered a WIP. F-22 is faster than the F-35 yes. It can fly higher than the F-35 yes. But the F-35 has better endurance in the air so we are in the awkward position of the P-51 vs the Spitfire. The Spitfire may be better, but we will never know because he has already had to turn around for gas but the Inferior P-51 continues all the way to Berlin shoots down some Luftwaffe and then comes home to tell the spitfire what he missed. F-47 is designed to be an F-22 replacement so I suppose when the last F-22 is delivered to a museum the pilot can fly back on an F-35 and the F-35 can have the last laugh.
comparisons are relative by design. Only the US Air Force has the luxury of comparing F-22 to F-35 in the real world and being so pedantic, to the US Navy the F-35 is the most advanced aircraft they have ever operated, and this goes for all F-35 buyers. F-22 is a very high bar, what is surprising is how close the F-35 can get to that bar and in that we need to have a more relative look. an F-35 will wreck an F-15 because the F-35 sees the F-15. F-15 is blind to the F-35. who is superior in the air in that case? The blind or the sighted? the F-35 will also be more survivable than an F-15 in areas where ground defenses are still in operation.
for India we are in a comparison with PAKFA which brings up a different look and another comparison. the F-35 may have and advantage on stealth, but not on speed. it is more nuanced than people think and there would have to be an honest comparison between the two and then finally whatever charteristics were considered more valuable. if stealth is prioritized the F-35 may have the advantage. PAKFA may have the speed advantages. typically this is the method. all the aircraft do X, Y, Z at different levels so the choice becomes which letter you prioritize. There are different ways to perform the air superiority mission the F-15 and F-22 don't even use the same tactics. a more accurate statement would be that an F-35 can't perform the Air superiority mission like the F-22 can, but then again neither can an F-15 and its an "air superiority fighter."

F-35 is NOT an Air-Superiority Fighter.

Or are you saying you know more than USAF Generals?

if you want to go down this road there are plenty of authorities that contradict the things you say about the F-35 as well. Hostage's comments about the F-15 seems to be wrong too, since the US buying new F-15EX and this is the year 2025...you are also unfamiliar with the works of "Chip" Berke who flew both F-22 and the F-35 and spoke about the advantages of the F-35 on more than a few occasions. he was also very clear "The least impressive thing about the F-22 is its speed - and it is very fast!" you can start here at 9:30 unfortunately he speaks very quickly but there are subtitles. and remember if you disagree then you are saying you know more than an F-22 pilot

 

[screambowl]

I am seeing are 450 KM everywhere.

There is no reason to downplay the range.

The 450km is not the true range that is the disclose number they give.

Detection range is influenced by altitude it is flying.

 

[randomradio]

Along with the Marine Corps and Air Force, the F-35C is a Navy aviation acquisition priority, Miller said.

“The F-35C will form the backbone of Navy air combat superiority for decades to come,” he said, adding its unique capabilities can’t be matched by modernizing the F-35 fourth-generation aircraft.

With the F-35, the carrier strike group of the future will be more lethal, survivable and able to accomplish the entire spectrum of mission sets to include immediate response to high-end threats, the admiral said.

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/1086174/f-35-program-makes-significant-solid-progress-official-says/

“It’s been an honor to serve alongside so many great leaders and support our nation and allies,” said Bogdan. “The F-35 weapon system is now operational and forward deployed. The size of the fleet continues to grow and we are rapidly expanding its capability. The F-35 will form the backbone of United States air combat superiority for decades to come and I know the program is in good hands as we transition leadership today to Vice Admiral Winter.”

New Program Executive for F-35 Lightning II office

With a commitment to carry the F-35 program forward, a new leader took charge of the Lightning II program office at a ceremony at Fort Myer, Virginia on May 25.

www.dvidshub.net

The USN doesn't have to perform AS missions.

USAF does AS, and the USN steps in to do their job alongside the low end component of the USAF, like the F-35A.

In the Gulf War, F-15Cs performed 96% of all AS missions.

You purposely leave out the context Of Gen Hostage. He was fighting the cuts of the F-15 and when he made the remark of it takes 8 F-35's to do what 2 F-22's can do he was also trying to get funding for upgrades for F-22's he cleverly used and example where F-35's are carrying internal air to ground load which means it only carries 2 BVR missiles. So 8 F-35's each carrying 2 BVR missiles equal the amount of missiles 2 F-22's carrying BVR missiles. We've done this cht before but I guess your narrative needs to be justified when it comes to the F-35 especially when one of your narratives was the Rafale was more than enough to take on the J-20. Oops!

Your basic argument is American decision-makers are fools and you are smarter than them.

But no, he was talking about strike capabilities. 8 F-35s with A2G payloads can carry 16 AMRAAMs, while 2 F-22s with A2G payloads can carry just 4. So you're wrong there. What he's saying is you can send 2 F-22s with bombs and 4 BVRAAMs and they will get the job done, whereas to do the same thing you need 8 F-35s. That's 2 F-35s carrying the same payload, the remaining 6 provide air cover, which is a standard A2G mission for low-end aircraft. That's 2 escorts, 2 top cover, and 2 for flanks protecting the 2 jets in the strike group. The reason is the F-22 will ingress and egress at high speed, while the F-35 has to do almost everything subsonic, allowing the enemy time to react.

And he wasn't talking about AS missions, where he clearly says the F-35 cannot do it. Pretty much everybody knows this fact.

No high altitude, no supercruise, no AS missions for you. If anyone assigns you one, then you're on a suicide mission.

 

[Spitfire6]

Doesn't matter. Frenchies keep harping Rafale is omnirole and can do both at the same time.

don't forget that this perfect mission would seemingly be the entire reason for the existence of the Rafale; penetrating strike mission with its SPECTRA creating active cancellation that makes it essentially 5th generation stealth as we have been "reminded" many times of its superiority in the air and ground mission while maximizing survivability.

 

[Spitfire6]

The USN doesn't have to perform AS missions.

yes it does, but it does not use the same terminology.

USAF does AS, and the USN steps in to do their job alongside the low end component of the USAF, like the F-35A.

so the aircraft carrier is nothing more than then "low end component of the USAF" ? when did the US Navy stop providing its own air cover for its own fleets and since when did any navy survive without control of the air post world war II and give up on the critical mission of Air Superiority?

In the Gulf War, F-15Cs performed 96% of all AS missions.

I think you need to check your numbers on that. LOL

Your basic argument is American decision-makers are fools and you are smarter than them.

fallacious appeal to authority

No high altitude, no supercruise, no AS missions for you. If anyone assigns you one, then you're on a suicide mission.

its crazy to think how most air superiority fighters don't meet that criteria and thus most air superiority pilots are suicidal? you have gone to such an extreme that most every other aircraft on the planet now except for the F-22 is not just incapable of the air superiority mission but is suicidal.

Can you please admit you have this wrong instead of trying to convince us that Nuclear carriers are nothing more than USAF assets and anything besides an F-22 in the air is a suicide mission? You are bending things so badly to fit your narrative that it has become laughable. Not even LM goes so far as to say "F-22 or suicide"

 

[RationalGuy]

It's perfectly fine against the J-20 lol. The entirety of the US strategy is based around the F-35 versus the J-20.

What is the distinction between air superiority and multirole at this point? Quote from China forum.



No special emphasis on energy mobility. F-35 doesn't have the best range, but that's also irrelevant for India. It does have good radar, stealth and enough VLRAAM poles. I would much rather fight in the F-35 than the F-22. Better stealth, better sensors, better stuff for BVR fight.

Too much into designed purpose. The design philosophy in A2A behind the F-35 went the opposite way of the Raptor, and it was correct.

F35 better stealth than F22? Since when?

 

[randomradio]

sigh

the reason Hostage and others were saying this is because saying the F-35 can do what the F-22 can either kills the F-22 or kills any F-22 upgrades or future funding. What he is saying is the F-35 can do air to air but the F-22 can do air superiority. Technically F-22 is "air dominance" but whatever. it is assuredly so that the F-35 was not designed as an air superiority fighter and was designed as a multi-role aircraft. BUT what must be emphasized is that most F-35 specifications and statistics are with its strike load. in other words thousands of kilos of bombs. remove the bombs and add only AAM and the F-35 is fairly sleek and nimble itself along with being the closest analog to the F-22. F-22 and F-35 are both AMRAAM/Aim9 dominant. F-22 carriers more, but 6 AMRAAM are on the way for F-35? The F-35 has better range than the F-22 and is going to be more prevalent and more common than the F-22. it does have advantages over F-22. it not nearly as clear cut as "this airplane says air superiority in the description, but this other airplane does not"
comparisons of the two in terms of weapons and other claims the F-35 does have better sensors than the F-22. we are told the stealth is "better" better how is not clear exactly. its interesting position to take when we have a WIP f-35 that has better characteristics than a "finished" F-22 but the F-35 is still considered a WIP. F-22 is faster than the F-35 yes. It can fly higher than the F-35 yes. But the F-35 has better endurance in the air so we are in the awkward position of the P-51 vs the Spitfire. The Spitfire may be better, but we will never know because he has already had to turn around for gas but the Inferior P-51 continues all the way to Berlin shoots down some Luftwaffe and then comes home to tell the spitfire what he missed. F-47 is designed to be an F-22 replacement so I suppose when the last F-22 is delivered to a museum the pilot can fly back on an F-35 and the F-35 can have the last laugh.
comparisons are relative by design. Only the US Air Force has the luxury of comparing F-22 to F-35 in the real world and being so pedantic, to the US Navy the F-35 is the most advanced aircraft they have ever operated, and this goes for all F-35 buyers. F-22 is a very high bar, what is surprising is how close the F-35 can get to that bar and in that we need to have a more relative look. an F-35 will wreck an F-15 because the F-35 sees the F-15. F-15 is blind to the F-35. who is superior in the air in that case? The blind or the sighted? the F-35 will also be more survivable than an F-15 in areas where ground defenses are still in operation.
for India we are in a comparison with PAKFA which brings up a different look and another comparison. the F-35 may have and advantage on stealth, but not on speed. it is more nuanced than people think and there would have to be an honest comparison between the two and then finally whatever charteristics were considered more valuable. if stealth is prioritized the F-35 may have the advantage. PAKFA may have the speed advantages. typically this is the method. all the aircraft do X, Y, Z at different levels so the choice becomes which letter you prioritize. There are different ways to perform the air superiority mission the F-15 and F-22 don't even use the same tactics. a more accurate statement would be that an F-35 can't perform the Air superiority mission like the F-22 can, but then again neither can an F-15 and its an "air superiority fighter."

Welcome back.

I'll repeat the statement as my previous post here again.

"No high altitude, no supercruise, no AS missions for you. If anyone assigns you one, then you're on a suicide mission."

The F-35's endurance doesn't matter in the AS role 'cause it's gonna have to use its afterburner a lot, a lot just to keep up with a dedicated ASF.

if you want to go down this road there are plenty of authorities that contradict the things you say about the F-35 as well. Hostage's comments about the F-15 seems to be wrong too, since the US buying new F-15EX and this is the year 2025...you are also unfamiliar with the works of "Chip" Berke who flew both F-22 and the F-35 and spoke about the advantages of the F-35 on more than a few occasions. he was also very clear "The least impressive thing about the F-22 is its speed - and it is very fast!" you can start here at 9:30

Sure, I agree with him. He basically talks up the F-35's avionics. But stick the same stuff on the F-22 and watch him sing a different tune. He's not comparing the F-22 and F-35, he's comparing a simpler computer with a more advanced computer.

He's referring to how backward the F-22 is in comparison, and we know that already due to its networking deficiencies. But the F-22's bridged that gap significantly since then.

There's nothing specially impressive about the F-15EX. It's just a cheaper complement to the F-35. Has some advantages, but without the protection of the F-22 and F-35, it's toast. Excellent EW suite though.

unfortunately he speaks very quickly but there are subtitles.

Don't sweat it, I can watch Ben Shapiro at 2x speed. This guy's slow.

PS: Chip's video is a propaganda piece. When he spoke about this in 2015, the F-35 was nothing special in the real world. We know this today. Even today it barely lives up to expectations. It needs TR-3 (2026), which will actually physically enable it to get to Block 3F (2026) and early Block 4 (2027). And then it requires a cooling upgrade and an engine upgrade (2029) to get to full B4. And full B4 software will take us into 2030+.

So Chip was largely exposed to the F-35's simulator and B4 was expected to ready by 2019, then 2022, then 2024, then 2026, and now 2030+. Picdel had written an article in 2019 or so saying that the F-35 needs until 2031 to become fully operational. Guess he was right.

And Chip must have retired from flying by now, without ever having used the things he talked about.

In the meantime, the F-22's plugged quite a bit of its deficiencies, mainly by integrating better datalinks for information superiority. From its originally crappy platform-limited IFDL, it has been upgraded with the Link 16 and TTNT, so it can easily communicate with AWACS and F-35s.

Russian and Chinese jets are natively better than the F-22 when it comes to information. More sensors and better networking. The Chinese system in particular integrates the J-20 with the space-ground system they operationalized back in 2016, so it even talks directly with satellites. The Su-57 is WIP, but it's getting there, it's integrated with the S-400 C2 as well, which is also satlinked. So imagine high-end fliers integrated to the same level as the F-35.

Anyway, 6th gen focuses on speed/agility, advanced stealth, and vastly increased amounts of information and networking.

 

[screambowl]

So let me get this straight... India for over a week was telegraphing that they were going to attack terrorist inside Pakistan proper (which is an act of war no matter how you spin it) knowing the PAF fighters would be flying CAP and READY but India had a moronic RoE

Only one hypothesis, IAF wanted them to enter Indian airspace to catch a PAF pilot alive, I have wrote it earlier as well, but PAF pilots were given strict RoE , do not enter Indian air space, OR Friendly fire like last time during post Balakot.

 

[randomradio]

yes it does, but it does not use the same terminology.

Sorry, no. Maybe against third-rate powers. But against a near-peer or peer threat, the USAF has to do the honors.

so the aircraft carrier is nothing more than then "low end component of the USAF" ? when did the US Navy stop providing its own air cover for its own fleets and since when did any navy survive without control of the air post world war II and give up on the critical mission of Air Superiority?

Providing air cover over your own assets is just a small part of AS. Even F-16s can do that. But if you want to perform penetration missions, OCA, fighter sweep etc, you need a dedicated ASF, because the enemy has one too.

I think you need to check your numbers on that. LOL

4 F-15 squadrons performed pretty much all AS missions.

fallacious appeal to authority

That's his fallback, not mine. For me logic and common sense are more important, but that's not respected by Innominate.

its crazy to think how most air superiority fighters don't meet that criteria and thus most air superiority pilots are suicidal? you have gone to such an extreme that most every other aircraft on the planet now except for the F-22 is not just incapable of the air superiority mission but is suicidal.

Eagles Cs, Flankers, Typhoon, Rafale, Mig-31, Mirage 2000... These jets can perform AS missions. They are high altitude, high speed fighters.

The F-22 has stealth, but the main qualifying factor is kinematics due to the need to use a high speed kinetic strike (BVRAAM) to impose costs on the enemy.

Can you please admit you have this wrong instead of trying to convince us that Nuclear carriers are nothing more than USAF assets and anything besides an F-22 in the air is a suicide mission? You are bending things so badly to fit your narrative that it has become laughable. Not even LM goes so far as to say "F-22 or suicide"

The USN plans to leave penetration missions to the USAF. The current crop of carriers cannot sustain the sorties necessary to fight countries like China close to the shores, requiring them to operate from further out, which further reduces sortie rate. But they can support the USAF's AS missions by taking the load off via conducting support missions. Once the USAF's finished SEAD/DEAD, or degraded the Chinese to the point low-end jets can operate in relative safety, they can step in. They can conduct AS missions at that point.

So, at least against China, most of US naval aviation is gonna sit out on the first one or two days.

The USN will fight Chinese ships though, under cover of the USAF, that's a given. The entire China fight will happen under the cover of the USAF, or it simply won't happen.

 

[Spitfire6]

"No high altitude, no supercruise, no AS missions for you. If anyone assigns you one, then you're on a suicide mission."

that completely absurd given how few aircraft are capable of Super Cruise and I mean F-22 levels of supercruse above the Transonic noise. Not breaking the sound barrier with some AAMs in a dive. F-22s can supercruise as fast as an F-18 flies. speed above all else went out of style wtih Disco. what you are doing is using an arbitrary piece of criteria to disbar everything else. by your logic AAMs are a complete waste on anything that can't supercruise.
Air Superiority is a MISSION not a qualification marker. this is the same thing that happened with the A-10. people decided that since it was the best Close Air Support aircraft, it was the only Close Air Support Aircraft, and that Close Air Support could only be done one way.
How can you be so creative with the application of history and the uses of naval aircraft and yet so rigid in this? All the world wonders

The F-35's endurance doesn't matter in the AS role 'cause it's gonna have to use its afterburner a lot, a lot just to keep up with a dedicated ASF.

you have confused air superiority with interception and even then Canada uses CF-18s for interception, hardly an interceptor and yet that is the mission.

Sure, I agree with him. He basically talks up the F-35's avionics. But stick the same stuff on the F-22 and watch him sing a different tune. He's not comparing the F-22 and F-35, he's comparing a simpler computer with a more advanced computer.

He's referring to how backward the F-22 is in comparison, and we know that already due to its networking deficiencies. But the F-22's bridged that gap significantly since then.


Don't sweat it, I can watch Ben Shapiro at 2x speed. This guy's slow.

PS: Chip's video is a propaganda piece. When he spoke about this in 2015, the F-35 was nothing special in the real world. We know this today. Even today it barely lives up to expectations. It needs TR-3 (2026), which will actually physically enable it to get to Block 3F (2026) and early Block 4 (2027). And then it requires a cooling upgrade and an engine upgrade (2029) to get to full B4. And full B4 software will take us into 2030+.

So Chip was largely exposed to the F-35's simulator and B4 was expected to ready by 2019, then 2022, then 2024, then 2026, and now 2030+. Picdel had written an article in 2019 or so saying that the F-35 needs until 2031 to become fully operational. Guess he was right.

And Chip must have retired from flying by now, without ever having used the things he talked about.

In the meantime, the F-22's plugged quite a bit of its deficiencies, mainly by integrating better datalinks for information superiority. From its originally crappy platform-limited IFDL, it has been upgraded with the Link 16 and TTNT, so it can easily communicate with AWACS and F-35s.

Russian and Chinese jets are natively better than the F-22 when it comes to information. More sensors and better networking. The Chinese system in particular integrates the J-20 with the space-ground system they operationalized back in 2016, so it even talks directly with satellites. The Su-57 is WIP, but it's getting there, it's integrated with the S-400 C2 as well, which is also satlinked. So imagine high-end fliers integrated to the same level as the F-35.

I'm sorry but don't get to appeal to authority and reject authority when its doesn't suite what you want to hear. does picdel know more than this F-22 pilot or the generals? and the F-35 was operational for years before he made that speech and even then had unrivaled capabilities (how many STOVL stealth aircraft is everyone else operating again?)
The generals say the F-35 is the most advanced and superior fighter in the world RIGHT NOW, but you disagree because you personally decided you knew more and block 4 is the "Real" F-35. so you are rejecting your own standards.
I would ask you to make it make sense, but I have already seen the crazy stuff you invent LOL "oh thats propoganda" You really enjoy rewriting history don't you?
would you actually like to acknowledge that an F-22 and F-35 pilot with even the F-35 early blocks is qualified to speak about it in an authorative way without calling it propoganda? we could say that Berke is telling us even a "not special" F-35 has advantages over the F-22

why not just stick with this:

Sure, I agree with him.

and drop all the other stuff you decided to include too?

There's nothing specially impressive about the F-15EX. It's just a cheaper complement to the F-35. Has some advantages, but without the protection of the F-22 and F-35, it's toast. Excellent EW suite though.

and yet the F-15 (even EX) is considered "air superiority " which is exactly my point. The F-35 which is "not air superiority" is better at Air Superiority than the F-15 Air superiority fighter.

makes sense!!

 

[randomradio]

F35 better stealth than F22? Since when?

Since forever.

'A God's Eye View Of The Battlefield:' Gen. Hostage On The F-35 - Breaking Defense

For years, the news about the most expensive conventional weapons system in US history, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, has been driven by its enormous cost, design, and schedule screw-ups. The Pentagon and Congress and the public have rarely spoken about what the F-35 would do, how effectively...

breakingdefense.com

 

[Spitfire6]

Sorry, no. Maybe against third-rate powers. But against a near-peer or peer threat, the USAF has to do the honors.

false

Providing air cover over your own assets is just a small part of AS. Even F-16s can do that

so you just moved the goal posts and agreed with me? thanks!

4 F-15 squadrons performed pretty much all AS missions.

that wasn't the stat you used...

That's his fallback, not mine. For me logic and common sense are more important, but that's not respected by Innominate.

did he make you use the logical fallacy?

Eagles Cs, Flankers, Typhoon, Rafale, Mig-31, Mirage 2000... These jets can perform AS missions. They are high altitude, high speed fighters.

again you have redefined your original statement that you posted twice:

No high altitude, no supercruise, no AS missions for you. If anyone assigns you one, then you're on a suicide mission.

I highlighted the Suicide Jets in Green, and I will point out that the top speed of a Rafale is Mach 1.8 but the F-35 is Mach 1.7. (Mach 1.6 is often listed but Mach 1.7 has been qouted and was achieved back in 2011. ) The ceiling is the same for both. by including the Rafale you include the F-35, and of course the F-35 can best the F-15 in AS!

The USN plans to leave penetration missions to the USAF.The current crop of carriers cannot sustain the sorties necessary to fight countries like China close to the shores, requiring them to operate from further out, which further reduces sortie rate. But they can support the USAF's AS missions by taking the load off via conducting support missions. Once the USAF's finished SEAD/DEAD, or degraded the Chinese to the point low-end jets can operate in relative safety, they can step in. They can conduct AS missions at that point.

all the mission you list are a part of a standard CVW. I don't know if you are easily mixed up, very bad with details or struggle with english but since you are an expert at Ben Shapiro I would think that these things would not be difficult.
There is a huge difference between not doing missions and not doing the mission at a certain sortie rate. The Growler pilots would be very tickled to hear that the US Navy doesn't do SEAD/DEAD and the F-35C pilots would be shocked to learn that they do not fly penetration.
using hard numbers what are the comparitive sorties please between the USN and USAf in the war with China? I need to know how close they are.

So, at least against China, most of US naval aviation is gonna sit out on the first one or two days.

hopefully they serve drinks. sitting can be so boring.

The USN will fight Chinese ships though, under cover of the USAF, that's a given.

Don't tell the USN and USAF they have their own wacky ideas!

listen mate, the entire thesis in all is simply that the F-35 can do that AS mission. people got obsessed with comparing the F-35 to the F-22 that they forget to examine the F-35 qualities. you actually list aircraft in the AS mission the F-35 can match in terms of kinematic performance and in terms of combat can actually BEAT thanks to stealth and sensors. you have reversed effects, and you didn't listen to the chip berke video enough (fast just means you die quicker). Let me show you:
An F-15 is better at air superiority because it is fast and high like you tell us. and besides its an air superiority fighter!! but an F-35 will kill the F-15, because the F-15 is blind comparatively. so is the point to fly fast or to kill and win? You confuse your objectives in this way. you keep telling us that the faster airplane is always the best airplane and there is no other way. Rafale and F-18 and F-35 are all below Mach 2. Do we really believe that a Rafale will always lose against a Pakistani F-16 because the F-16 is faster? THINK man. you have completely missed the point.
F-35 better than F-15? the F-35 is a generation ahead, even though F-35 is not faster that is where you lose the plot. An F-18 is slower than an F-4, but F-4s have no chance against F-18s.

 

[screambowl]

We didn't know that F35 and F22 took part in air engagement during Op Sindoor. Brilliant!