MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Amarante]

When the target is receding, the missile's range drops by multiple times. The crash site is 100 km away. The NEZ of P-15 against a head-on target is no more than 45-50 km. Less than half that against a receding target. And the base is 90 km away from the border, and even greater if PAF CAP is at 50 km from border.

Anyway, it's possible the M88 video is a deep fake.

There's no damage to the ground, no crater, no burns, no drag marks, it's like it's been placed there. Even the foliage under the engine seems the same as what's around it. All that should have disappeared. Let's not forget that's the top soil of a farm, it should have dug into the mud. And GoI has confirmed that no aircraft were shot down on our side on the first day too.

Plus it's been almost 2 days and there's no other confirmation video, especially for the tail number. It should have become available by now.

So the news is very likely fake.

@vstol Jockey @LX1111

beg your pardon,
Have you mentioned on the forum the possibility that, for some reason, this part of the engine was lost during the low-altitude return flight?
The angle of descent (may have) caused it to "bounce" on the ground rather than create a crater.

And that the bird returned to the nest with only one engine. After all, that's what it's designed for: "one is none, two is one".

 

[randomradio]

beg your pardon,
Have you mentioned on the forum the possibility that, for some reason, this part of the engine was lost during the low-altitude return flight?
The angle of descent (may have) caused it to "bounce" on the ground rather than create a crater.

And that the bird returned to the nest with only one engine. After all, that's what it's designed for: "one is none, two is one".

The engine's been split into two. The damage would have been quite significant. But nothing's even out of place on the ground.

Anyway, we are not discussing this anymore, it's pointless. We have to wait for IAF confirmation. They are not gonna hide such losses.

 

[South block]

MMRCA need to be F 35 period. We need some fifth generation fighter jet as *censored* will be selling some of their tin cans to Chinese soon.

 

[nayra]

I am not an expert neither I know if we lose Rafale or not and hope it was some minor UAV crash but this guy (he is an ex-Rafale-M pilot of the French Navy) has done a comprehensive breakdown of all scenarios that may have unfolded on that night (turn on english audio track)

He highlighted some shortcomings of Rafale, French tactics/SOPs and our operations.
An important point he mentioned is that in all the multilateral exercises like Anatolian Eagle, Pakistanis bring intelligence officers who put on pilot uniforms and they have pretty high level of understanding about our platforms like Rafale and M2000, on the other hand, J-10s is like a blackbox for us.

But I believe (even though I may sound like stupid desk general (which maybe I am)) that IAF should have first sanitized the airspace and carried out some SEAD operations before hitting the actual targets and in press debrief, they could have said that we shoot them in self-defence because they tried to shoot our planes while we do the operations and actively protecting the terrorists(which they did).

 

[Lolwa]

Neither of them fit in anymore.

The F-35 is already underpowered, and will see a serious drop in thrust over the Himalayas. For example, Mig-29UPG may have 83 kN of power, but it's closer to 75 kN in Indian hot conditions and even worse in the Himalayas. The F-35's will drop big time. We need a 25T engine on it.

As for Su-57, Russia is currently a hot potato for imports. A lot of the stuff we need currently is from the West, like F414 and AMCA's engine. We cannot buy anything new from Russia until the main Western imports are completed. In any case, generic imports from Russia has come to an end, it's practically official govt policy now.

Anyway, we can't afford to play to PLAAF's strengths with our economy. In order to fight PLAAF, we will need 400 Rafale + AMCA or about 1000 Su-57s. The math doesn't work out for us by using heavies. Kinda like we can't win a car race with a cheaper car, but we can buy a better performing motorcycle to win the race. So what matters is winning the race.

With Trump in power we can easily buy s500/550 and su-57 production line.
The only thing we will have to give to the Americans is an order of
80 F-35A's and maybe the mmrca to the f-15EX.
Also rafale and su-57 fill entirely different roles. Rafales don't possess any missile with the capabilities or range of r-37m. Neither we can modify the rafale as much as the su-57 or su-30. The fact is we need 100's of bomb trucks that can carry long range missiles. Also we need to upgrade our aewcs to do datalink targetting. Astra mk2,astra mk3 and gandiv need to be brought online within this year.

that IAF should have first sanitized the airspace and carried out some SEAD operations before hitting the actual targets and in press debrief, they could have said that we shoot them in self-defence because they tried to shoot our planes while we do the operations and actively protecting the terrorists(which they did).

The entire issue is our RoE forced the IAF to avoid any SEAD/DEAD mission. The IAF's mission that day was to target jihadi sites and avoid hitting any military targets or assets to avoid escalation.
What we got was ceasefire violations and drone attacks.

 

[Lolwa]

MMRCA need to be F 35 period. We need some fifth generation fighter jet as *censored* will be selling some of their tin cans to Chinese soon.

F-35 and mmrca for different roles and are complementary aircrafts.

 

[Jersey27]

With Trump in power we can easily buy s500/550 and su-57 production line.
The only thing we will have to give to the Americans is an order of
80 F-35A's and maybe the mmrca to the f-15EX.

If we go down that route, IAF will return to being the zoo of the 90s with 7 different fighters in its arsenal - MKI, Rafale, Tejas Mk1/2, Su-57, F-35, F-15EX and AMCA - even after Jaguar, Mirage and MiG-29 are retired. Ideally we should keep that number down to 4 fighter types in the long run.

 

[Lolwa]

If we go down that route, IAF will return to being the zoo of the 90s with 7 different fighters in its arsenal - MKI, Rafale, Tejas Mk1/2, Su-57, F-35, F-15EX and AMCA - even after Jaguar, Mirage and MiG-29 are retired. Ideally we should keep that number down to 4 fighter types in the long run.

The rafale replaces the mirage and jaguar
The tejas mk1 replaces the mig 23/mig 27 and mig 21
The tejas mk2 replaces the mirage and mig 29.
The f-15EX/typhoon replaces the mig29
The su-30 is upgraded and numbers are increased.
The su-57 becomes the future replacement of the su-30
The f-35 is an extra addition and bring new ability
The AMCA replaces the mig 29 and mirage.

 

[South block]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1927015217130623181

 

[Lolwa]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1927015217130623181

If only trump wasn't a complete buffoon. If only...

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Dassault Aviation partners with Tata Advanced Systems to manufacture Rafale fighter aircraft fuselage for India and other global markets

• First-ever Rafale fuselage production in India
• Dedicated manufacturing facility to be set up in Hyderabad (Saint-Cloud, Mumbai, June 5, 2025)

Dassault Aviation and Tata Advanced Systems Limited have signed four Production Transfer Agreements to manufacture the Rafale fighter aircraft fuselage in India, marking a significant step forward in strengthening the country’s aerospace manufacturing capabilities and supporting global supply chains.

This facility represents a significant investment in India’saerospace infrastructure and will serve as a critical hub for high-precision manufacturing.
Under the scope of the partnership, Tata Advanced Systems will set up a cutting-edge production facility in Hyderabad for the manufacture of key structural sections of the Rafale, including the lateral shells of the rear fuselage, the complete rear section, the central fuselage, and the front section.

The first fuselage sections are expected to roll off the assembly line in FY2028, with the facility expected to deliver up to two complete fuselages per month.

"For the first time, Rafale fuselages will be produced outside France. This is a decisive step in strengthening our supply chain in India. Thanks to the expansion of our local partners, including TASL, one of the major players in the Indian aerospace industry, this supply chain will contribute to the successful ramp-up of the Rafale, and, with our support, will meet our quality and competitiveness requirements", said Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation.

Sukaran Singh, Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director, Tata Advanced Systems Limited,said, “This partnership marks a significant step in India’s aerospace journey. The production of the complete Rafale fuselage in India underscores the deepening trust in Tata Advanced Systems’ capabilities and the strength of our collaboration with Dassault Aviation. It also reflects the remarkable progress India has made in establishing a modern, robust aerospace manufacturing ecosystem that can support global platforms.

”The signing of these contracts reflects Dassault Aviation’s strong commitment to India’s ‘Make in India’and AtmaNirbhar initiatives. This partnership aims to strengthen India’s position as a key player in the global aerospace supply chain while supporting its goal of greater economic self-reliance.

 

[Bon Plan]

No 4.5 gen aircraft can plausibly engage modern air defense without losses. Note Pakistan hardly counts as modern air defense, but neither did Ukraine and Russia with many advanced aircraft failed at air superiority.

We see that in Ukraine, we see it in Pakistan. The solution is F-35. Been saying it for a decade now on the old forum as well.

J-20's are popping off the production facility at numbers of 100+

Can India afford to wait?

your disk is sriped.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1930548783114563679

 

[Rajput Lion]

Making so much investment for only 26 Rafale M or Rafale C exports makes no sense until India has given assurance to France/Dassault for a huge domestic order. So guys MRFA is now "unofficially" a done deal. As expected, it was going to be Rafale as there was never a plan B.

The Americans were dangling F-35s before us only if we ordered F-21s as MRFA. But now with Dassault tagging with Lockheed's Indian partner TASL, that window is gone for them too.

All our predicament is because of not buying 120 Rafales in one go and dropping out of FGFA. Now with Tata-Dassault partnership in place, looks like the first problem is about to get sorted soon and the moment the first J-35 lands in PAF colours, the latter very much could fructify as well in form of Su-57MKI.

 

[Speedster1]

The Americans were dangling F-35s before us only if we ordered F-21s as MRFA

That was in the past. LM knows the F-21 stands no chance in MRFA-2, esp now that Boeing is pitching the Eagle-2 (which is also a long shot, I'd add). Wouldn't be surprised if LM had lobbied the US govt for India to get F-35 export approval. Currently, their main focus in India seems to be the MTA contract. I'd bet on the KC-390 though.

 

[Speedster1]

Making so much investment for only 26 Rafale M or Rafale C exports makes no sense until India has given assurance to France/Dassault for a huge domestic order. So guys MRFA is now "unofficially" a done deal. As expected, it was going to be Rafale as there was never a plan B.

The Americans were dangling F-35s before us only if we ordered F-21s as MRFA. But now with Dassault tagging with Lockheed's Indian partner TASL, that window is gone for them too.

All our predicament is because of not buying 120 Rafales in one go and dropping out of FGFA. Now with Tata-Dassault partnership in place, looks like the first problem is about to get sorted soon and the moment the first J-35 lands in PAF colours, the latter very much could fructify as well in form of Su-57MKI.

More Rafales were always on the cards, given the base infra and component mfg we've already built up. (Wish we'd cut a deal for Scalp + MICA-NG local production as well)

However, there has been speculation about the MRFA-2 being thrown open to 5G designs as well. Seems illogical, I know. But the IAF likely wants to speed things up a bit. Would be interesting to see how many tranches they order and the delivery timelines.

 

[Ashwin]

MRCA->MMRCA->MRFA from a few sensible defence journalists of the country.

 

[Herciv]

Making so much investment for only 26 Rafale M or Rafale C exports makes no sense until India has given assurance to France/Dassault for a huge domestic order. So guys MRFA is now "unofficially" a done deal. As expected, it was going to be Rafale as there was never a plan B.

The Americans were dangling F-35s before us only if we ordered F-21s as MRFA. But now with Dassault tagging with Lockheed's Indian partner TASL, that window is gone for them too.

All our predicament is because of not buying 120 Rafales in one go and dropping out of FGFA. Now with Tata-Dassault partnership in place, looks like the first problem is about to get sorted soon and the moment the first J-35 lands in PAF colours, the latter very much could fructify as well in form of Su-57MKI.

It's also in the Dassault Interrest to diversify it's production capacities to sell more rafale in the world. After the Sindoor success its share price is skyrocketing. More sells are to come.
For example In Indonesia, as soon as the sindoor sucess was known Indonesia has confirm a complement to its first batch at the detrimental of the F-15 ...

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Frankly, I started defending the Rafale in 2011, 14 years ago, on another website because this one didn't exist, and then in 2017, eight years ago, on this one. And I hardly need to intervene anymore, unlike in the beginning when the Typhoon was perceived as vastly superior to the Rafale. It wasn't even up for debate, and besides, the Typhoon was going to have an AESA radar at least five years before the Rafale...

Today, when Anglo-Saxons try to criticise the Rafale, it's rather laughable. I'll be able to retire. 77 years old !
When I talk about the FCAS, I know I won't see it, and there's a good chance I won't see the Rafale F5 either.

 

[randomradio]

Frankly, I started defending the Rafale in 2011, 14 years ago, on another website because this one didn't exist, and then in 2017, eight years ago, on this one. And I hardly need to intervene anymore, unlike in the beginning when the Typhoon was perceived as vastly superior to the Rafale. It wasn't even up for debate, and besides, the Typhoon was going to have an AESA radar at least five years before the Rafale...

Today, when Anglo-Saxons try to criticise the Rafale, it's rather laughable. I'll be able to retire. 77 years old !
When I talk about the FCAS, I know I won't see it, and there's a good chance I won't see the Rafale F5 either.

No time to retire. Your new enemy is Su-57.