Pahalgam terror attack: 26 killed

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randomradio said:
Chinese jets communicating with Erieye versus PL-15 integration with the Erieye are not the same. All NATO radars come with the interfaces necessary for the integration of any NATO-std communication system, it's easy, it's designed that way. PL-15 requires fire control information and data link interfacing, that means China requires access to the source codes of the Erieye or Saab needs to be given access to the seeker, comm system, and guidance system of the PL-15.

There's no chance Saab would ever allow China to tinker with the radar. And in case PL-15E access has been given to Saab for integration, then fine. But it's quite unlikely that the original PL-15s supplied overnight would be given the same treatment.

The only option is for the JF-17 to act as a mule for the J-10Cs, considering the J-10 and JF-17 are integrated. Difficult to say since the J-10 is still quite new.
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To be very honest, it could be another psyop too. Is it that hard to put dummy PL-15s on JF-17? Or to make AI modified images of JF-17? Will China risk their own premier missile to fall in American hands?

And lets face it.. If Pakistan had to send a message, will it send using some anonymous handle on twitter? They could have used DGISPR to publish those images so Indian officials do not miss it at all.
 
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South block said:
You sound like typical IT celliya on social media busy scaring people about what this war will cost India..... Typical Delhi bhadarloki dhoti shivering bureaucratic mindset.
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And you sound like a delhi ka dehati aka a juttbuddhi for the ad hominems you're spewing without once countering the points I've raised.
South block said:
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Juttbuddhi posts a video made by Paxtanis to forward their narrative with an unhinged Christine Fair as usual questioning Balakot & openly pooh poohing India's ability to strike back in a way Fauji Foundation never forgets & I'm supposed to be the IT celliya on SM scaring people with s typical Delhi Bhadralok ( whatever that's supposed to mean ) dhoti shivering mindset.
 
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randomradio said:
Chinese jets communicating with Erieye versus PL-15 integration with the Erieye are not the same. All NATO radars come with the interfaces necessary for the integration of any NATO-std communication system, it's easy, it's designed that way. PL-15 requires fire control information and data link interfacing, that means China requires access to the source codes of the Erieye or Saab needs to be given access to the seeker, comm system, and guidance system of the PL-15.

There's no chance Saab would ever allow China to tinker with the radar. And in case PL-15E access has been given to Saab for integration, then fine. But it's quite unlikely that the original PL-15s supplied overnight would be given the same treatment.

The only option is for the JF-17 to act as a mule for the J-10Cs, considering the J-10 and JF-17 are integrated. Difficult to say since the J-10 is still quite new.
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No.
Link 17 is a simple translator transmitter.
You don't need source code for that.
It picks up information from Erieye, translates into format understandable but Chinese platforms such as JF-17 and transmits.
It's not as realtime as Link 16 , due to translation phase. But it's there and works..
In some situations it doesn't even work aircraft to aircraft, instead it uses a ground station as intermediate, where the translation happens.
So it's Erieye to ground station to JF 17.
 
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safriz said:
No.
Link 17 is a simple translator transmitter.
You don't need source code for that.
It picks up information from Erieye, translates into format understandable but Chinese platforms such as JF-17 and transmits.
It's not as realtime as Link 16 , due to translation phase. But it's there and works..
In some situations it doesn't even work aircraft to aircraft, instead it uses a ground station as intermediate, where the translation happens.
So it's Erieye to ground station to JF 17.
Click to expand...
Jesus fukken christ!
What's you professional background? What do you know about communication systems?
I come from computer and telecom background and what you are talking about is pure bullshit.

A telecom protocol (which is essentially all these tactical data links are) has many parts or rather layers. Just because you can translate datagram from one protocol to another, it does not mean it will work with another. Think about it. If it was just a matter of translating telecom protocols, fooling missiles would have been trivial! Just sent the data grams in right protocol and missile will simply abort!

You need authentication parts worked out as well. And no, you do not have that worked out. Otherwise you would be using AIM120C with your Chinese jets for long time. That sbjt never happens for a reason.

So yeah you can translate messages or datagrams it will not amount to anything unless Erieye and Chinese missiles share authentication bits.

And I doubt Chinese will EVER share their authentication secrets with you. Not to mention, it is not possible for Erieye to let you install Chinese cyphers to support PL-15 authentication. And precisely that you ask for source code. So you can add such things.

Had this been possible, you would have been flying PL-12s and PL-15s in your F-16s too. Because all things would play nice with each other since you are translating their messages and protocols. That shit does not happen.

Exactly the same reason India can not integrate European radar guided missiles on its Russian jets. Europe is not going to allow that. Neither will Russia.
 
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Speedster1 said:
I'm assuming the newly formed IBGs will lead the charge as part of any ground offensive. First time we'd have a combined arms formation going into battle. Should be interesting.

I just wish we hadn't delayed the creation of theatre commands and in particular the joint AD command that Gen. Bipin Rawat had proposed. It would've streamlined the procurement of new SPAAG and DRDO QRSAM for forward units.
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We have some, but it's not yet across the board.

www.theweek.in

Integrated Battle Groups to be up by 2025 or never: Army chief Gen Upendra Dwivedi

Indian Army Chief General Upendra Dwivedi says the setting up of Integrated Battle Groups is in the final stages and presentations have already been made to the ministry of defence
www.theweek.in www.theweek.in
 
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Ah, Ignorants, Why are you competing with the wumao?

Why would we make a knee-jerk reaction for MRFA? What will signing a deal in a hurry change for us immediately? Any operational advantage we need can be delivered by a stopgap measure too. Rather, we will use MRFA to gain diplomatic points for a post-war scenario.

And why is anyone expecting PLAAF will announce their attacks? During peacetime, enemy jets operate predictably. During exercises, they announce their intentions and that provides us enough time to secure our borders. But if they start flying unpredictably without informing, it puts our forces on alert too. So clues are always available by observing the intensity and nature of air traffic across the border. Aircraft are distributed from a central base to many bases. This would require personnal and shipments for food, water, medicine etc, weapons, plane parts, supplies to run the bases etc, all observable. The air traffic increases by many times in case PLAGF is involved too, 'cause they are not on the plateau, and their movements on the ground are observable.

Ignorants showing off his superpowers again. "Destroy their war waging capabilities not get into a war of attrition..." What, they are gonna stand around getting destroyed, no fighting back? Destroying war waging capabilities means one force can destroy another's using overwhelming force. War of attrition means one force does not have the ability to use overwhelming force without punishment, so chooses to slowly bleed the enemy on the battlefield in the hopes that they bleed more quickly. This is not a choice, it is limited by the organic capabilities brought to the field by both sides.

What that means is the IN may have overwhelming superiority, but IAF and IA are gonna have to deal a heavy blow, take some themselves, and slowly grind the enemy down. The only difference is we can hope to get it done in a week or two to a month or two. And this entirely depends on how well Pakistan fights back.

If the IN enters the fray "in a big way," we are basically announcing the destruction of Pakistan, so it will be the last resort before the IA's strike corps move in to split Pakistan and force separation. Any naval action at that level can trigger a nuclear war.

As for LAC, we have an additional strike corps. Them swooping in will see us swooping in too. Plus they need time to mobilize, we don't. The worst thing they can do for themselves is enter a war after Pakistan has been dealt with.
 
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South block said:
You sound like typical IT celliya on social media busy scaring people about what this war will cost India..... Typical Delhi bhadarloki dhoti shivering bureaucratic mindset.
Click to expand...

What's funny is India has already demonstrated their escalation ladder in 2019. And people still do not extract clues from that.
 
Saaho said:
To be very honest, it could be another psyop too. Is it that hard to put dummy PL-15s on JF-17? Or to make AI modified images of JF-17? Will China risk their own premier missile to fall in American hands?

And lets face it.. If Pakistan had to send a message, will it send using some anonymous handle on twitter? They could have used DGISPR to publish those images so Indian officials do not miss it at all.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter either way. Expecting China to send some more weapons over from their stocks is quite a reasonable expectation. They would like to test out their weapons too after all. But yeah, they risk compromising their entire operational fleet, so your opinion has the most strength.

And against PLAAF, we were prepared to fight J-20s and J-16s with the PL-15, not just J-10Cs. The missile is now almost 10 years old too, so we could have countermeasures deployed already.
 
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Things that India can do better than 2019

Manage the information space better

Pak went on the offensive from day 1 with the Balakot killed crows and trees narrative, IAF could not release photos of the BDA for a few days allowing Pak to run wild.

The whole Doosra banda mess. The scoop hungry media picked up the Shahaz ud Din BS intentionally peddled by Pak and it led to India losing the plot. This lesson hasnt been learnt, evident from the shit heads who went overboard sharing the Chinese Galwan casualty list which perversely had feminine names in it.

Indian armed forces long used to selectively releasing information to media in press conferences need to recognize the digital space as yet another battlefield where they need to wage war - an information war if they are to prevail in this new paradigm.

Manage the Indian population

One battle into the conflict, our population started candle marches for peace and Abhinandan's safe return showing the govt the public had no intention or stomach for a proper conflict. No govt can wage a respectable war if its civil population isn't interested.

Have a better control on the escalation matrix

An unpopular opinion which is going to make people uncomfortable and earn me brickbats. India has been hitting back for a long time. Only the govts of the day chose to keep those actions under the wraps to contain the fallout. Leaderji's first real action on Pak in 2016 which was publicised as a "Surgical Strike" while really being a cross border raid that killed a few terrorists / Pakistanis but did not meet any real goals.

Pak was able to downplay the hit and therefore chose to not publicly react.

After Balakot, India used the IAF to bomb PoK forcing Pak's hand. Pak's response - Op Swift Retort was a preplanned op, where PAF threw everything except the kitchen sink at India to make a rhetorical point. Both sides decided to call it a day since neither side had the heart for a real conflict. Both sides went on the overdrive claiming victory while in reality both sides had lost

India had effectively flushed the Nuke deterrence peddled by Pak down the toilet. Pak had saved face by managing to match India strike for strike.
Neither side met their stated objectives. India did not deter further terror attacks. Pak wasnt able to scare off India.
The only achievement of both sides was kicking the can down the road. Which brings us to 2025.

Pak's list of grievances is long - Unknown gunmen, the Train hijack in Balochistan where service members were identified and killed were blamed on India. Its the easy way out for Pak which doesnt want to accept responsibility for the hot mess it has made in Balochistan.

Asim Munir facing internal strife and a weakening support base took a Hail Mary and bet the collective future of the Jernails / Fauji group on a pair of fives.

Now both sides find themselves at crossroads. For their own reasons, both sides have chosen their paths and now find themselves riding a tiger they cant get off.

India's ruling party long projecting a strongman image can ill afford to back down. Pak Army long projecting itself as the sole guardian of Pakistan can ill afford to look weak especially after chickening out during the 370 episode.

Both sides have chosen to publicize actions that should have been kept under the wraps to allow additional maneuvering room. In doing so they have lowered the threshold with each episode.

Uri - India launched a cross border raid. No biggie raids happened before. But this raid was publicly announced and celebrated. Pak was reduced to disputing the impact and claiming it was a minor event.

Pulwama - India launched air strikes. Pak already unhappy at its deterrence being eroded launched counter strike using a mission that was preplanned and gamed. But eager to avoid a showdown chose to dilute the impact and drop duds on empty ground. The wildcard was the MiG-21 F-16 clash whose outcome depends on the flag the reader supports.

This brings us to Pahalgam. The Indian public expects meaningful action - something that addresses the complaints of 2019. Pak wants to address the massive beating the Pak army image has taken in the recent times. Neither side has any room for concessions.

Bottom line - With every public action, the threshold for a conflict gets lower. Like a stock being traded on the market where the shareholders expect not just a profit but a percentage increase on the profit from the previous financial year, the voters expect stronger action than the one offered on the previous flashpoint.

So far the GoI has managed to keep the pressure at bay while it works on its options. What will ultimately decide the outcome is how well the GoI manages to keep control of the plot.

No plan survives first contact. Lets see how GoI fares post Zero Hour.
 
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randomradio said:
It doesn't matter either way. Expecting China to send some more weapons over from their stocks is quite a reasonable expectation. They would like to test out their weapons too after all. But yeah, they risk compromising their entire operational fleet, so your opinion has the most strength.
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The Pakistanis have a history of selling military secrets for the right price. Back in the 1980s, they gave the Chinese access to US origin hardware (F-16s and P-3Cs to be precise) which helped in the dev of their PLA equivalents. The Chinese know all too well how flippant the Pakistanis can be. Export grade stuff is all they'd be prepared to give.
 
Seems to me RST is repeating the same retarded tactics he used with BMD which brought him to grief. Since it's a working day & I'm employed in the Pvt Sector unlike you know who I'd keep it brief .

Call it knee jerk or whatever reaction , the reason we'd sign the MRFA are manifold . For beginners if we get into a high intensity kinetic war with Paxtan , we'd take losses.

I expect the lingering taste of RST in the real world aka Pappu's antics to be still fresh in Leaderji's memory , one among the many reasons we've not gone in for the second tranche of Rafales thru a G2G & also the reason for news reports post ACM A.P. Singh's first PC where it was speculated the MRFA tender would be revived meaning we wouldn't be going in for a G2G .

Of course none of this is confirmed news but one of the reason forums like this exists is members indulge in informed speculation which takes a whole new meaning once RST indulges in it aka bandar ke haath mein talwar.

Signing a deal immediately means we get the FAs ASAP. See dear readers what I meant earlier by RST deploying the same retarded tactics he did while arguing with Paddy.

Everything has to split down to word & further broken down to syllables to get the point across.

Stop gap measures ? Like buying second hand Mirages & MiG-29s or getting the F-35 or the Su-57 ? See what I meant by retarded tactics ?

MRFA to score diplomatic points ? Let me guess - that's code for the babudumb prolonging negotiations just like the neighborhood sugar cane vendor keeps bundling ever shredded cane back into the crusher to extract the last drop thereby screwing the life of the motor there & screwing the IAF here by delaying the acquisition even further. Retarded tactics ?

In case RST didn't notice our men in green / khaki have the rather pleasant habit of being surprised all the time. They were surprised in 1965 during Operation Gibraltar , they were further surprised in Kargil in 1999 & still further surprised in 2020.

For all those activities that PLAAF & PLA would undertake in case of a war , RST elaborated on , even he knows that we lack space based ISR to generate that kind of information & that this would be available courtesy the constellation of 50 off ISR we'd be launching between now & 2030. Till then we're at the mercy of you know who. Yet all this doesn't prevent RST from deploying the same tactics he did with Paddy & got severely mauled in the bargain.

I specifically mentioned the IN should be destroying the PN unless RST is suggesting the PN is equivalent to the IN . Retarded.....??

My grateful appreciation to RST for enlightening us on the difference between overwhelming force & a war of attrition & then corroborating my point in a round about way vis a vis the IAF.

PAF has the fuel to last a month or even 15 days of high tempo operations ? The best part is if they try to escape like in 1971 they can't even land their birds in Iran or Afghanistan where they sought to establish strategic depth. I just looked up the time. It's far from 8 pm unless we're dealing with severe hangover here. Another retarded .... ( Fill in the blanks ).

If IN enters the fray it's... reminds me of the recent test match series we hosted against England where most matches didn't go beyond 2 days which had the English contingent especially their media whining .

It took an Ashwin to logically counter them with - whoever laid down the rules that the pitch must support fast bowling on the first day , should be batting friendly on days 2&3 & should support spin on the last two days.

Same pinch here for RST's "war gaming." I was about to type the ability to think out of the box is severely impaired in RST till I realised the ability to think straight forward itself is severely impaired in him.

The PLA has disengaged , not de escalated which is what we've been asking for. Negotiations are still proceeding on this sticking point. And with the current situation on the LoC I doubt the PLA is going anywhere.

My mistake I interrupted a convivial chat between RST & Paddy's replacements in Maamu & Wumao. They're meant for each other.
 
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Jaymax said:
Things that India can do better than 2019

Manage the information space better

Pak went on the offensive from day 1 with the Balakot killed crows and trees narrative, IAF could not release photos of the BDA for a few days allowing Pak to run wild.

The whole Doosra banda mess. The scoop hungry media picked up the Shahaz ud Din BS intentionally peddled by Pak and it led to India losing the plot. This lesson hasnt been learnt, evident from the shit heads who went overboard sharing the Chinese Galwan casualty list which perversely had feminine names in it.

Indian armed forces long used to selectively releasing information to media in press conferences need to recognize the digital space as yet another battlefield where they need to wage war - an information war if they are to prevail in this new paradigm.

Manage the Indian population

One battle into the conflict, our population started candle marches for peace and Abhinandan's safe return showing the govt the public had no intention or stomach for a proper conflict. No govt can wage a respectable war if its civil population isn't interested.

Have a better control on the escalation matrix

An unpopular opinion which is going to make people uncomfortable and earn me brickbats. India has been hitting back for a long time. Only the govts of the day chose to keep those actions under the wraps to contain the fallout. Leaderji's first real action on Pak in 2016 which was publicised as a "Surgical Strike" while really being a cross border raid that killed a few terrorists / Pakistanis but did not meet any real goals.

Pak was able to downplay the hit and therefore chose to not publicly react.

After Balakot, India used the IAF to bomb PoK forcing Pak's hand. Pak's response - Op Swift Retort was a preplanned op, where PAF threw everything except the kitchen sink at India to make a rhetorical point. Both sides decided to call it a day since neither side had the heart for a real conflict. Both sides went on the overdrive claiming victory while in reality both sides had lost

India had effectively flushed the Nuke deterrence peddled by Pak down the toilet. Pak had saved face by managing to match India strike for strike.
Neither side met their stated objectives. India did not deter further terror attacks. Pak wasnt able to scare off India.
The only achievement of both sides was kicking the can down the road. Which brings us to 2025.

Pak's list of grievances is long - Unknown gunmen, the Train hijack in Balochistan where service members were identified and killed were blamed on India. Its the easy way out for Pak which doesnt want to accept responsibility for the hot mess it has made in Balochistan.

Asim Munir facing internal strife and a weakening support base took a Hail Mary and bet the collective future of the Jernails / Fauji group on a pair of fives.

Now both sides find themselves at crossroads. For their own reasons, both sides have chosen their paths and now find themselves riding a tiger they cant get off.

India's ruling party long projecting a strongman image can ill afford to back down. Pak Army long projecting itself as the sole guardian of Pakistan can ill afford to look weak especially after chickening out during the 370 episode.

Both sides have chosen to publicize actions that should have been kept under the wraps to allow additional maneuvering room. In doing so they have lowered the threshold with each episode.

Uri - India launched a cross border raid. No biggie raids happened before. But this raid was publicly announced and celebrated. Pak was reduced to disputing the impact and claiming it was a minor event.

Pulwama - India launched air strikes. Pak already unhappy at its deterrence being eroded launched counter strike using a mission that was preplanned and gamed. But eager to avoid a showdown chose to dilute the impact and drop duds on empty ground. The wildcard was the MiG-21 F-16 clash whose outcome depends on the flag the reader supports.

This brings us to Pahalgam. The Indian public expects meaningful action - something that addresses the complaints of 2019. Pak wants to address the massive beating the Pak army image has taken in the recent times. Neither side has any room for concessions.

Bottom line - With every public action, the threshold for a conflict gets lower. Like a stock being traded on the market where the shareholders expect not just a profit but a percentage increase on the profit from the previous financial year, the voters expect stronger action than the one offered on the previous flashpoint.

So far the GoI has managed to keep the pressure at bay while it works on its options. What will ultimately decide the outcome is how well the GoI manages to keep control of the plot.

No plan survives first contact. Lets see how GoI fares post Zero Hour.
Click to expand...
Well, let's be honest. The entire narrative that we hit camps so surgically that not one structure was blown up is rather .... elusive. I mean, this controlled escalation real or just narrative has limited use here. Either there was a real *censored* up or we did sub critical hit. There were diplomatic advantages to that retaliation but certainly it was calibrated to AVOID escalation. Perhaps on the insistence of America. That itself lowered its appeal and PR value. And the next day *censored* up of Mig-21 was known to everyone.

This time, India needs to inflict an extremely sharp pain with a policy to indicate readiness for escalation that Pakistan backs off. That followed by building of water storage facilities and canals will put Pakistan on back foot for ever.
 
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Saaho said:
Well, let's be honest. The entire narrative that we hit camps so surgically that not one structure was blown up is rather .... elusive. I mean, this controlled escalation real or just narrative has limited use here. Either there was a real *censored* up or we did sub critical hit. There were diplomatic advantages to that retaliation but certainly it was calibrated to AVOID escalation. Perhaps on the insistence of America. That itself lowered its appeal and PR value. And the next day *censored* up of Mig-21 was known to everyone.

This time, India needs to inflict an extremely sharp pain with a policy to indicate readiness for escalation that Pakistan backs off. That followed by building of water storage facilities and canals will put Pakistan on back foot for ever.
Click to expand...
Without BLA / Afghans involvement, this is going to be long drawn affair. Don't envy Modi's job. The weight of decisions he has to take are immence.

Hope I am wrong.

PS: no Modi bashing please.
 
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