WTF is this? What did I see here????? ... HAL HJT-36 Shit-ara OR Birbal ki kichidi?

Saaho

Saaho

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Dec 27, 2019
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Hi!
I wanted to compare two subsonic trainer jets (IJTS)... The indian Sitara and Pak-Chinese K-8. WTF did I see? Just WTF!!!!!!!

K-8:
First proposed in 85, design began in 87, first flight in 91, first trainer delivered to PAF in 1994. PLAAF in 1995. By 2010, China and Pakistan could produce 24 of these babies in a year. Exported to anyone and everyone.

China in 87 was a 800 billion dollar economy (2015 constant dollars, accommodating for inflation). Pakistan... its not even worth mentioning.

HJT-36.... Shit-ara
Oh my mother fukken titty sucken GAWWWWD!
Designed in 1997-2000 (India was.... 800 billion dollar economy too, in 2015 dollars... so same place as China in 87).
First flight in 2003. Comparable.

Then.... WOWOWOWO!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

It got its engine changed because airforce did not like the engine.
Engine was delayed till 2008.
Then...... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

2014 Almost done.... Almost!

Spin isssue?

GAAWD what else????

2023 !!!!!! Its NOT YET FUKKKKKKEN DONE!!!!!

Its 25 years in making. And its not DONEEEEEE!!!

Whats going on folks?
Anyone knows?

2023 India cannot do what China did in 1994.

WTF IS GOING ON!

Does anyone know how did we managed to *censored* a simple project like a subsonic jet so royally? @Milspec ? Hello? @randomradio? Anyone ? It is humanly impossible to *censored* up a basic project like this! Lol! I don't even know anymore now....

My cousin sister was born in 97.... She is now married with 2 kids.... HAL, WTF Seriously?
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Assuming it's certified by next yr , contract signing can happen by 2025 or 26 latest. Why should it be 5 yrs ?
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HAL internal testing, then certification by CEMILAC, then maintenance testing by IAF, then proposal to DAC, then technical committee, then RFP, then CCS clearance, then deal signing.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
HAL internal testing, then certification by CEMILAC, then maintenance testing by IAF, then proposal to DAC, then technical committee, then RFP, then CCS clearance, then deal signing.
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Well all these procedures were observed from the final certification before contract negotiations & signing of the agreement of the HTT-40 too . Yet how long did that take? 3yrs?
 
LX1111 said:
My God, K-8 is already in PLAAF ready to retire, why are we talking about him
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30..... THIRTY..... THIRTY years for first SUBSONIC jet trainer to reach the airforce.....
And then these people talk about 5th Gen...

I doubt 5th gen is going to happen in this century. Actually, my future generation will be happy if it happens in next century.

in 1987 when China started its K-8 program, it would also have faced embargoes from all the western world after 89 Tianaman Square incidence. So no excuse for India regarding any kind of technology denial.

This is .... unfathomable. Why do we even talk about all this defence this and defence that and what not if this is the standard here. Lets close all of these defence industries in India and just import all the defence items. Atleast it will be honest and will reach forces in time.

Admit it ... India cannot make defence items. NO! NEVER!
 
Sitara had design issues. I believe in stall situations it performed poorly. It's been a shitshow since then. They picked up the issues too late and the only thing surprising is that it's not been cancelled.
 
Guynextdoor said:
Sitara had design issues. I believe in stall situations it performed poorly. It's been a shitshow since then. They picked up the issues too late and the only thing surprising is that it's not been cancelled.
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There is no excuse. Even if they went back to design board in 2014, the could have rebuilt it totally from scratch and certified it in 9 years now. 2014 was 9 years back!

I mean in 23 years they could have discarded 3 totally different designs and brought it to market 3 times atleast if not more.

China in 1995 changed the engine of K-8 from an american one for Pakistan to a locally license made Ukrainian one. It took 1 or 2 years only.

HAL wasted time waiting for a new engine from Russia in 2003-2008!!!!!

WHAT THE ACTUAL *censored* IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE IN HAL AND IAF AND DRDO!
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
HAL internal testing, then certification by CEMILAC, then maintenance testing by IAF, then proposal to DAC, then technical committee, then RFP, then CCS clearance, then deal signing.
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12 LSP airframes already produced. That's something!.
 
Ashwin said:
12 LSP airframes already produced. That's something!.
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Man, that only means it is still in testing.

What the real fluff is this? Has there EVER been a proper dissection of this massive failure?

I can see few things:

1. For some really inexplicable reason HAL chose an under-powered engine for this aircraft. 14 KN for a 5400 KG MTOW plane. K-8 was ONE WHOLE TONNE lighter and chose 16-17 KN engine. Why? And in 1999, when the design and development of HJT started, Pakistan and China were flying those planes. Their specs must have been known. Heck K-8 was flying in Singapore Airshow in 1993. Whats the excuse for this big of an oversight? India could have perhaps purchased the same engine like China. A Soviet/Ukrainian one Progress AI-25. Sure as hell HAL would have been able to manufacture those inhouse because China was doing it.

2. In 2004 when for the first time it was pointed that plane is underpowered, HAL like a chicken running without its head went for an engine that was NOT EVEN IN PRODUCTION! LOL! AL-55I was not in production and it was not till late 2008 that this engine became available! This is .... I do not know. Once more, why they did not buy Honeywell's engine? Or Ukrainian AI-25 engine? Why so?? Why buy an engine that is under development? Why take risk?

3. HOW COME no one detected the spin/barrel roll issue till as late as 2014!!!! WTF !!! They could not do basic testing at NAL? Whats going on?
 
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Saaho said:
Man, that only means it is still in testing.

What the real fluff is this? Has there EVER been a proper dissection of this massive failure?

I can see few things:

1. For some really inexplicable reason HAL chose an under-powered engine for this aircraft. 14 KN for a 5400 KG MTOW plane. K-8 was ONE WHOLE TONNE lighter and chose 16-17 KN engine. Why? And in 1999, when the design and development of HJT started, Pakistan and China were flying those planes. Their specs must have been known. Heck K-8 was flying in Singapore Airshow in 1993. Whats the excuse for this big of an oversight? India could have perhaps purchased the same engine like China. A Soviet/Ukrainian one Progress AI-25. Sure as hell HAL would have been able to manufacture those inhouse because China was doing it.

2. In 2004 when for the first time it was pointed that plane is underpowered, HAL like a chicken running without its head went for an engine that was NOT EVEN IN PRODUCTION! LOL! AL-55I was not in production and it was not till late 2008 that this engine became available! This is .... I do not know. Once more, why they did not buy Honeywell's engine? Or Ukrainian AI-25 engine? Why so?? Why buy an engine that is under development? Why take risk?

3. HOW COME no one detected the spin/barrel roll issue till as late as 2014!!!! WTF !!! They could not do basic testing at NAL? Whats going on?
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There are enough stuff written and discussed in this very forum. Go through those. Its a design failure by HAL. IAF ordered LSP airframes even before reaching IOC because they had the confidence. And no Its not underpowered.

HAL’s HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer Rises From The Ashes: A Detailed Look | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com delhidefencereview.com
 
Ashwin said:
There are enough stuff written and discussed in this very forum. Go through those. Its a design failure by HAL. IAF ordered LSP airframes even before reaching IOC because they had the confidence. And no Its not underpowered.
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Has the contract with IAF signed? Is the plane even military airworthy certified?

The article says that it was overweight quite a few times during development.

And why the hell HAL had to go for a totally brand new design. Should have copied one for the role.
 
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