Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile : News, Updates and Discussions

[Saaho]

ASMP's warhead is smaller and its nuclear payload is 200Kg and less.

Source? I could not find a SINGLE source mentioning its warhead capacity. The only way is to work it out based on known comparable warheads.

Brahmos has primarily been made to carry conventional warheads which are bigger. So the weight of the warhead doesn't tell you enough. With an increased volume for the warhead compartment, it also needs increased dimensions, hence the need for greater power, which will mean increased fuel load hence the bigger size and weight.

Errr... Nope. What you are talking about is volumetric capacity. No volumertric capacity is not as much responsible for heavier missile. You can shape the missile differently.

The missiles are simply not in the same class either. One is a land-based conventional missile that needs to climb to high altitude on its own power, whereas the other is simply a nuclear platform which is fired at high speed and from high altitude from the get-go.

There is air launched version of Brahmos as well. I used it for comparison too. 2500 KG in weight. And not to mention proposed "modernized" version of air launched Brahmos called NG. Even that is proposed to be 1500 KG in weight. That almost double the weight of a missile designed in 1980s.

The Brahmos-A is merely a modification of the land-based system and can't be compared to a system that has been designed from the ground up to be air-launched with a nuke.

Heck, even the proposed NG variant of brahmos, optimized for being launched from air will weight 1500 KG.

Lets even leave this all. There is NO russian supersonic air launched missile with similar charecterstics as ASMP (let alone ASMP-A). No wonder there is no equivalent Indian or Chinese super sonic cruise missile with similar charecterstics.

 

[_Anonymous_]

First prototype of Brahmos-NG to be ready by 2024

The five-metre-long, 50-centimetre-thick, and 1.5 ton Brahmod-NG is half the dimensions of the Brahmos missiles currently in service today with the Indian Air Force (IAF), Army, and the Navy.

www.indiatoday.in

Ceteris Paribus ASN4G an upgrade of the ASMP-A , is expected to be a hypersonic missile with much the same dimensions as that of the ASMP . Hence while the Brahmos NG is definitely an improvement over the Brahmos - A version , in terms of compactness the ASMP & it's various versions scores over the Brahmos.

 

[randomradio]

Errr... Nope. What you are talking about is volumetric capacity. No volumertric capacity is not as much responsible for heavier missile. You can shape the missile differently.

Lol. So the 0.6m diameter vs 0.38m diameter is not a giveaway? Don't you know you need to carry a great volume of conventional explosives to have any sort of impact?

The missile is not in the same class, carries the same payload or performs the same role.

There is air launched version of Brahmos as well. I used it for comparison too. 2500 KG in weight. And not to mention proposed "modernized" version of air launched Brahmos called NG. Even that is proposed to be 1500 KG in weight. That almost double the weight of a missile designed in 1980s.

Heck, even the proposed NG variant of brahmos, optimized for being launched from air will weight 1500 KG.

Lets even leave this all. There is NO russian supersonic air launched missile with similar charecterstics as ASMP (let alone ASMP-A). No wonder there is no equivalent Indian or Chinese super sonic cruise missile with similar charecterstics.

The air-launched version is simply a modification of an existing missile. I've already mentioned it.

As for NG, let's see what the actual weight will be, since even the LCA is expected to carry it.

The Russians never bothered to make one since they don't need one. Even the US doesn't. Only France operates such a missile. They very likely have such a design because they do not have bombers of their own and they need the extra range because Russia is far away from France.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Apparently the hypersonic Zircon missile with a range of 1000 kms & a warhead weighing 300-400 kgs also weighs 3 tons. Of course we're referring to the Naval version but I'm guessing even if it were to appear in an ALCM role it'd still weigh close to 2 tons with some other parameters being compromised.

 

[screambowl]

Why only Nirbhay is failing due to that?

Nirbhay is failing because of external pressure. India wants to buy foreign maal.

 

[_Anonymous_]

 

[Hydra]

Nirbhay is failing because of external pressure. India wants to buy foreign maal.

No because of incompetency, Nirbhay used to fail even before we being mtcr member/signatory or whatever. Dont blame foreigners for our failures. Infact we dont have any offer from abroad on Nirbhay class CM.

 

[Chain Smoker]

OK, but X shaped rear wings are common in cruise missiles.
Why only Nirbhay is failing due to that?

Which other missiles have rear fins like nirbhay afaik all the missiles are having vertical stabilizers. Only older version of tomahawk had that but it also resulted in high failure rate.

 

[safriz]

Which other missiles have rear fins like nirbhay afaik all the missiles are having vertical stabilizers. Only older version of tomahawk had that but it also resulted in high failure rate.

Klub / Kalibr missiles? In use with India?

 

[Chain Smoker]

Klub / Kalibr missiles? In use with India?

Nope.

 

[screambowl]

No because of incompetency, Nirbhay used to fail even before we being mtcr member/signatory or whatever. Dont blame foreigners for our failures. Infact we dont have any offer from abroad on Nirbhay class CM.

Even if you have it you wont use it so its the same thing.

 

[Saaho]

Lol. So the 0.6m diameter vs 0.38m diameter is not a giveaway? Don't you know you need to carry a great volume of conventional explosives to have any sort of impact?

The missile is not in the same class, carries the same payload or performs the same role.

Actually GOOD! That you mentioned "bigger warheads". Just to be sure:

ASMP and Brahmos have very similar MASS of warheads (200-300 KG), as I mentioned before.

Now lets talk about volume. For the same mass a more dense object will have smaller volume. So what is the density of a conventional warhead and a lightweight nuclear war head? Fortunately we can estimate that :

A typical missile warhead contains mostly a polymer bonded explosive (PBX) to reduce sensitivity to shock. While there are many compositions of such PBX, lets use one of the common ones like PBX 9502 and PBX 9501.

Compacting Plastic-Bonded Explosive Molding Powders to Dense Solids (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV

The U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Scientific and Technical Information

osti.gov

As you can see, depending upon molding process, a PBX charge will have density of 1.828 g / cm3 to 1.837 g / cm3.

Now lets see density of a nuclear warhead. Remember a lot of space in thermo nuclear warhead is NOT the radioactive fission fuel (which is super dense) but things link fog-bank or charges itself or lithium deuteride.

A W80 warhead has a diameter of 30 cm and height of 80 cm giving it a volume of 61380 cc. Its weight is about 130 Kg giving it a density of 2.11 g / cc. NOT massively higher than a PBX charge!

Meaning a missile carrying 130 KG of PBX like 9501 will need space about 71,000 cc and a missile carrying a nuclear warhead will need a space of 61,000 cc with same weight.

Thats JUST 16% more space!

Sorry dude, I don't think a conventional warhead of SAME mass is much BIGGER than a nuclear warhead.

The issue is primarily less advanced soviet ramjet design which is copied by India and China for their respective missiles.

 

[randomradio]

Actually GOOD! That you mentioned "bigger warheads". Just to be sure:

ASMP and Brahmos have very similar MASS of warheads (200-300 KG), as I mentioned before.

Now lets talk about volume. For the same mass a more dense object will have smaller volume. So what is the density of a conventional warhead and a lightweight nuclear war head? Fortunately we can estimate that :

A typical missile warhead contains mostly a polymer bonded explosive (PBX) to reduce sensitivity to shock. While there are many compositions of such PBX, lets use one of the common ones like PBX 9502 and PBX 9501.

Compacting Plastic-Bonded Explosive Molding Powders to Dense Solids (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV

The U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Scientific and Technical Information

osti.gov

View attachment 20578

As you can see, depending upon molding process, a PBX charge will have density of 1.828 g / cm3 to 1.837 g / cm3.

Now lets see density of a nuclear warhead. Remember a lot of space in thermo nuclear warhead is NOT the radioactive fission fuel (which is super dense) but things link fog-bank or charges itself or lithium deuteride.

A W80 warhead has a diameter of 30 cm and height of 80 cm giving it a volume of 61380 cc. Its weight is about 130 Kg giving it a density of 2.11 g / cc. NOT massively higher than a PBX charge!

Meaning a missile carrying 130 KG of PBX like 9501 will need space about 71,000 cc and a missile carrying a nuclear warhead will need a space of 61,000 cc with same weight.

Thats JUST 16% more space!

Sorry dude, I don't think a conventional warhead of SAME mass is much BIGGER than a nuclear warhead.

The issue is primarily less advanced soviet ramjet design which is copied by India and China for their respective missiles.

That's 'cause you are assuming what the ASMP carries is the same size as the W80. You're obviously going to come to the wrong conclusion.

Never mind the fact that the W80 is carried in a missile that has a greater diameter than the Brahmos.

You are quite literally comparing a missile with a diameter of 0.38m with missiles with diameters of 0.6m and 0.62m. And you are quite literally saying the ASMP has a massive warhead chamber that's nearly twice the length of the Brahmos's warhead chamber to compensate, when it's obvious the shorter and smaller ASMP also has a much smaller warhead volume, hence carries a significantly smaller and more compatible warhead design compared to the W80.

You can actually argue that since the ASMP is a single purpose missile meant to be used in small numbers, it actually carries a much superior and more expensive blend of fuel that provides it much greater efficiency than the Brahmos's fuel, which is meant for general purpose use in large numbers and in different profiles. Other than that the missile classes are entirely different to make any meaningful comparison.

Simply put, when it comes to performance, the Brahmos will be able to do everything the ASMP can, but the ASMP cannot do everything the Brahmos can. It's like comparing a light tank with an MBT.

 

[Sathya]

Even if you have it you wont use it so its the same thing.

We did get Abhinandan back by positioning bhramos I think?

 

[screambowl]

We did get Abhinandan back by positioning bhramos I think?

So Brahmos is Nirbhaya now?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

So Brahmos is Nirbhaya now?

We have deployed a few Nirbhay Missiles in Ladakh , using old Russian engines

Their purpose is to destroy the SAMS and Radars

I believe that news about its failure is deliberately created Fake news

Redirect Notice

 

[Saaho]

That's 'cause you are assuming what the ASMP carries is the same size as the W80. You're obviously going to come to the wrong conclusion.

Dear, I am comparing DENSITY. My entire agrument is this simple. A thermonuclear warhead NEED NOT BE NECESSARILY (emphasis on the word NECESSARILY) much bulkier than a conventional warhead of same weight (notice the word bulkier, it does not mean heavy).

When you say that Conventional warhead will necessarily be much bigger, I am challenging that. For same payload mass, it is NOT necessary that conventional warhead will NEED to be much bigger.

When it comes to diameter, that in case of Brahmos is bigger due to its soviet origin and NOT due to its warhead. Brahmos is bulkier and heavier than ASMP because MBDA knew something more than Soviets about RAM jet design.

Never mind the fact that the W80 is carried in a missile that has a greater diameter than the Brahmos.

Not necessarily. W80 is ALSO carried byTomahawk with a diameter of 52 cm (less than 60 cm diameter of Brahmos).

You are quite literally comparing a missile with a diameter of 0.38m with missiles with diameters of 0.6m and 0.62m.

The warhead W80 itself has a diameter of 0.30m. All I am saying is this much : Its not the warhead that is making Brahmos bulkier and hence ( as per you) heavier. It is soviet origin of its RAM jet.

You can actually argue that since the ASMP is a single purpose missile meant to be used in small numbers, it actually carries a much superior and more expensive blend of fuel that provides it much greater efficiency than the Brahmos's fuel, which is meant for general purpose use in large numbers and in different profiles. Other than that the missile classes are entirely different to make any meaningful comparison.

To be God damn honest, I don't know exactly what fuel ASMP carries or IF it is expensive. I am all ears if you have a source or anything that points to it. Even the cost of a single missile is not in public domain, only its development cost is.

Lastly, we are comparing with a weapon built in 1980s.

 

[randomradio]

Dear, I am comparing DENSITY. My entire agrument is this simple. A thermonuclear warhead NEED NOT BE NECESSARILY (emphasis on the word NECESSARILY) much bulkier than a conventional warhead of same weight (notice the word bulkier, it does not mean heavy).

When you say that Conventional warhead will necessarily be much bigger, I am challenging that. For same payload mass, it is NOT necessary that conventional warhead will NEED to be much bigger.

When it comes to diameter, that in case of Brahmos is bigger due to its soviet origin and NOT due to its warhead. Brahmos is bulkier and heavier than ASMP because MBDA knew something more than Soviets about RAM jet design.

Not necessarily. W80 is ALSO carried byTomahawk with a diameter of 52 cm (less than 60 cm diameter of Brahmos).


The warhead W80 itself has a diameter of 0.30m. All I am saying is this much : Its not the warhead that is making Brahmos bulkier and hence ( as per you) heavier. It is soviet origin of its RAM jet.


To be God damn honest, I don't know exactly what fuel ASMP carries or IF it is expensive. I am all ears if you have a source or anything that points to it. Even the cost of a single missile is not in public domain, only its development cost is.

Lastly, we are comparing with a weapon built in 1980s.

Basic volume of cylinder equation:
ASMP = 0.61m3
Brahmos = 2.43m3

2.43/0.61 = 3.98

3.98 x weight of ASMP = Brahmos weight for similar volume
3.98 x 860 = 3422 Kg

So, based on ASMP's volume, Brahmos should weigh 3.4T. But it doesn't.

Add to the fact that the Brahmos has a much larger booster since it has to carry the missile to altitude. The booster alone weighs more than a ton.

Apart from that the Brahmos carries a conventional warhead and the ability to hit moving targets. Totally different design, different warhead, seeker etc.

Fuel quality is important. ASMP is practically guaranteed to carry a superior grade of fuel.

Yeah, the Brahmos design is older, but that's not enough of a difference. It's an entirely different class of missile. If ASMP was ground-launched, it would also weigh a whole lot more.

The Brahmos is meant to carry a larger, heavier warhead from the ground, the ASMP carries a smaller, lighter warhead and is air-launched. This statement alone ends the discussion. So cheers.

 

[Saaho]

Basic volume of cylinder equation:
ASMP = 0.61m3
Brahmos = 2.43m3

2.43/0.61 = 3.98

3.98 x weight of ASMP = Brahmos weight for similar volume
3.98 x 860 = 3422 Kg

So, based on ASMP's volume, Brahmos should weigh 3.4T. But it doesn't.

LOL!

What you are suggesting is this : HAD ASMP been the SAME volume as Brahmos, its weight would have been a half a tonne to 1 tonne (ie Air launched version of Brahmos is about half a tonne lighter than Land launched Brahmos) more than Brahmos.



Trouble is, IF there were a missile with ASMP's technology and more volume (ie bigger), it would have most likely having much much larger range or payload capacity.

You need to hold weight and range constant FIRST before you compare those missiles!

Your equation is this

(Volume of Brahmos / Volume of ASMP) * Weight of ASMP

which is scaling ASMP to the size of Brahmos. If you make ASMP bigger, its range and payload will change markedly over and above Brahmos's.

 

[randomradio]

LOL!

What you are suggesting is this : HAD ASMP been the SAME volume as Brahmos, its weight would have been a half a tonne to 1 tonne (ie Air launched version of Brahmos is about half a tonne lighter than Land launched Brahmos) more than Brahmos.



Trouble is, IF there were a missile with ASMP's technology and more volume (ie bigger), it would have most likely having much much larger range or payload capacity.

You need to hold weight and range constant FIRST before you compare those missiles!

Your equation is this

(Volume of Brahmos / Volume of ASMP) * Weight of ASMP

which is scaling ASMP to the size of Brahmos. If you make ASMP bigger, its range and payload will change markedly over and above Brahmos's.

You are just hung up on the ASMP having the same volume and payload as Brahmos.

This discussion is basically logic fail. The Brahmos has a gigantic booster, bigger and higher payload, seeker, higher range etc.

And no, if you make the ASMP bigger and land-launched, it will also need a very large booster that will increase weight like crazy.

Here's an example:

This is basically like the Brahmos. The SFDR has two boosters, one takes it to altitude and the other internally located booster propels it to high speed before the ramjet switches on. The weight of the SFDR in this configuration's more than twice the weight of the actual missile.

Remove the booster and you get ASMP. The weight quite literally drops by half in the case of the SFDR. Because it's pretty obvious a fighter jet version will not have the giant booster.

The Brahmos's overall range-payload performance is superior to the ASMP, and it has a gigantic booster that propels the missile from state of rest to nearly mach 3.

The ASMP carries a smaller payload that weighs 200Kg or less to 550Km when launched from the air, whereas the Brahmos can carry a 300Kg large warhead to 600-800Km from a state of rest. Not the same class. No comparison. Brahmos is further being upgraded for ranges between 1000-1500km.

Complete logic fail.