Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 10 40.0%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 6 24.0%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 9 36.0%

  • Total voters
    25

What If we try to get a package deal
Of P.75 I Plus this New SSN from
France

SSNs and SSBNs can't be exported. We can only expect R&D and technology imports through offsets.

Also, we are getting a replacement for the Chakra, and we will be good until 2035. So there's no need for another submarine.
 
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SSNs and SSBNs can't be exported. We can only expect R&D and technology imports through offsets.

Also, we are getting a replacement for the Chakra, and we will be good until 2035. So there's no need for another submarine.
Brazil: PROSUB - The Submarine Development Program
January 15, 2020 Patrick DELEURY
In this article on the advancement of Brazilian Navy programs, focusing on the Basic Shipbuilding Project sub-programs that already have physical execution, we bring the PROSUB - Submarine Development Program.

The data come from a document provided by the Ministry of Defense, in July 2019, to the CREDN - Commission for External Relations and National Defense, in response to a request for information.

It has three main objectives, namely:

  • the construction of a shipyard and a naval base (EBN),
  • the construction of four conventional submarines (S-BR)
  • the construction of a nuclear powered submarine (SN-BR).

Prosub-submarinos.jpg


Descriptive summary of the physical execution currently deployed and annual forecast of the physical implementation deployed by the end of the project

The schedule for delivery by the end of the project aims to follow the values presented by objective and in percentages:

  • S-BR - delivery target of 63.8% in 2018, 11% in 2019 and expected completion in 2023;
  • SN-BR - delivery target of 18.30% in 2018, 11.64% in 2019 and expected completion in 2032;
  • EBN - delivery target of 63.30% in 2018, 2% in 2019 and expected completion in 2028.

Underwater construction

Riachuelo - S40 type submarine Provides for the construction of conventional submarines S-BR 1 - Riachuelo, S-BR 2 Humaitá, S-BR 3 Tonelero and S-BR 4 Angostura according to the following actions undertaken and to be undertaken from 2019:

  • S-BR 1 - Riachuelo: launch launched in December 2018 and throughout 2019 operational tests are planned for the delivery of the submarine to the operational sector in 2020;
  • S-BR 2 - Humaitá: Completion of structural work, termination of pipes, equipment and electric cables. In October 2019 will be the last union of its sections, the launch in 2020 and the delivery of the submarine to the operating sector in 2021;
  • S-BR 3 - Tonelero: Completed the fabrication and installation of heavy hull appendages, as well as the fabrication and installation of tanks and supports. The launch is scheduled for 2021 and the delivery of the submarine to the operating sector in 2022; and
  • S-BR 4 - Angostura: The fabrication of the resistant hull structures is completed and the external and internal tanks and non-resistant structures are started. The launch is scheduled for December 2022 and the delivery of the submarine to the operating sector in December 2023;
SN-BR - Project to build a nuclear powered submarine in accordance with the following actions and to be undertaken from 2019 :

  • Between 2010 and 2013 technological training took place in France and Brazil, for engineers (underwater design, detailed design and integrated logistical support);
  • Structural project of the qualification section SN-BR, focused on the preparation of manpower and industrial capacities), Itaguaí Naval Constructions (ICN);
  • Between February 2010 and February 2022, the initial phase of the SN-BR project process was inserted;
  • Obtaining of the partial construction permit of SN-BR by the Naval Agency for Nuclear Safety and Quality;
  • In February 2022, the signing of the terms of the addendum to the construction contract, the agreement on the material package with the respective credit and financial contribution for the modification is expected;
  • In October 2022, the construction of the SN-BR is expected to begin, later the construction and assembly of the nuclear propulsion plant; and
  • Discharge into the sea, criticism of the SN-BR nuclear propulsion plant,
  • Acceptance tests, port tests, sea tests and transfer to the operating sector in 2032.
Shipyard and Naval Base (EBN)

  • Itaguaí - Estaleiro e Naval Base
  • Itaguaí Naval Complex - Shipyard and Naval Base
  • It will house a naval command and control structure, submarine crew maintenance organizations, logistics and training organizations, and indicates the main objectives already achieved and expected delivery plans by the end of PROSUB:

Main constructions delivered by 2018: seven (7) submarine berths and one (1) auxiliary dock, steel fabrication facility, lift, electrical substation, submarine crew building, battery activation workshop and simulator building.
Major constructions planned from 2019 to 2028 at the naval base, the maintenance yard and the specialized maintenance complex: integrated control centers, 138 KV transmission line, coastal road, fire department and administrative buildings, light support workshop and weather towers.
National and international companies participating in the project

Construtora Norberto Odebrecht (CNO), Itaguaí Naval Constructions (ICN), Sepetiba Bay Consortium (made up of CNO and ICN), Naval Group (France) and hundreds of other companies which together would represent less than 5% of the allocated budget;

Technical and budgetary obstacles

Humaitá submarine (left) under construction next to Riachuelo submarine (right), June 2019
Technical: Supply of material imported from France for the construction of submarines, adequate training of personnel to design and build submarines, identification of national companies capable of nationalizing submarine systems / equipment and maintenance of technical training of submarines. submarines. Future logistical support for submarines is controlled by PROSUB risk management and the necessary mitigation actions are taken without impacting the program.

Budget: The budgetary constraints imposed on the project, from 2015, led the Brazilian navy to prioritize the work inherent to the site, so as not to impact the construction schedule of the S-BR. stopping the lower priority works of the maintenance shipyard and the naval base, which are gradually started / resumed, but on a smaller scale than desired. The start of construction of the Specialized Maintenance Complex (CME) has been postponed, with an estimated delay of around four years to the completion of the EBN project, which is now scheduled for 2028.

The amount of 947 million reais allocated to the LOA-2019 for the budgetary actions that make up PROSUB represents a reduction of around 47% compared to the 2018 credit and is insufficient to allow the proper continuation of the program. The lack of budgetary resources guaranteed in LOA-2019, necessary for the continued development of the Navy's nuclear program (PNM) and the SN-BR nuclear power plant, prevents the hiring of new applications. execution of services and purchase of equipment. These restrictions on the nuclear power plant may also have a direct impact on the completion of the construction of the SN-BR, undermining the entire SN-BR program,because they would lead to a possible delay in payment of stages which could ultimately even be subject to the Brazilian Navy for the cancellation of all contracts by one of the participating companies.


Humaitá submarine under construction in October 2019

The international PROSUB financing agreement is in effect until February 2025 and, if the execution of the commercial contracts of the program exceeds this deadline, it will be necessary to renegotiate the extension of the disbursement period, probably under less favorable conditions than those obtained in 2009., when the international economic situation was favorable in Brazil and there was no downgrade in the country's rating, conferred by traditional international risk agencies.

The contingency and the decontamination of resources, during the same year, are the main causes of the need for successive increases and decreases in the pace of work, which can lead to the dismissal of approximately 1,500 CNO employees, in charge of EBN construction work, possible loss of knowledge and compromise of project memory.

In addition, it significantly hampers their planning, which can lead to shortages or leftover resources at the end of the year, in addition to the one-year delay in completing the work resulting in an increase in the overall value of the project. project of approximately 150 million reais per year, due to indirect expenditure with operational support; maintenance of installations and equipment; demobilization; the new mobilization of equipment and personnel; and the basic environmental plan, among others.

Despite the efforts made by MB to increase the budget level of the Force, due to the serious budgetary crisis that the country has experienced in recent years, coupled with adjustment measures aimed at balancing the public accounts, such as the new regime tax. In fact, the amounts allocated to MB's budget were in fact not sufficient to cover the investments required to adequately respond to these important programs related to the construction of the naval core.
 
The PROSUB program for Brazilian submarines, a strategic program for the Brazilian Navy, consists for Brazil in acquiring modern submarines, as well as acquiring the corresponding technologies and developing the industrial and technological defense base (BITD) associated.

While the front section of the first submarine was carried out in France, as part of the training of Brazilian engineers and technicians, the rest of this first hull, as well as the other submarines, were entirely made in Brazil thanks to the technology transfers granted, and in particular by Naval Group.

France, both through the French industry involved in the realization of this large-scale project and through the cooperation between the French and Brazilian governments, is proud to support Brazil in the realization of the submarine “Riachuelo”, the first Brazilian Scorpene class submarine (S-BR).
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it will be necessary to renegotiate the extension of the disbursement period, probably under less favorable conditions than those obtained in 2009.,
Now that they have chosen Gripen, financial negotiations may not be as easy as they were in 2009! :)
 
Definitely. I don't think there's any other country we have as many common interests as with France.

I hope it turns into something more concrete later on.
I think NGF/scaf would be a good start. Unfortunately we are too behind the tech curve..
 
SSNs and SSBNs can't be exported. We can only expect R&D and technology imports through offsets.

Also, we are getting a replacement for the Chakra, and we will be good until 2035. So there's no need for another submarine.
SSBN probably definitively not. but SSN can be exported.
In th 80 the Canada wanted to purchase 12 SSN, from USA, GB or France. The exportation was agreed. They decided not to proceed (and I don't remember why. Cost ?)
For The Australian Attack class, there was a rumor that some of the 12 on the agenda can be replace by nuc one (so full Barracuda) at the AUstralia request.

If you can lease one, you can purchase one.
 
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SSBN probably definitively not. but SSN can be exported.
In th 80 the Canada wanted to purchase 12 SSN, from USA, GB or France. The exportation was agreed. They decided not to proceed (and I don't remember why. Cost ?)
For The Australian Attack class, there was a rumor that some of the 12 on the agenda can be replace by nuc one (so full Barracuda) at the AUstralia request.

If you can lease one, you can purchase one.

I suppose we couldn't buy the Akula since we are not part of NPT.
 
What makes you think that?

And you really think we are behind Germany and Spain?
Electronic warfare and radar tech. Plus material quality and production techniques are still behind them. They also are ahead in engine tech development thanks to Eurojet..
Spain has Indra which is pretty decent
Germany has cassidian for electronics.
Both Germany and Spain are part of Airbus they are sophisticated compared to us. We could replace Spain. The thing is there is nothing unique we can add to the Scaf.

Tempest maybe would be a better learning experience but they don't have a carrier variant.
 
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For a first try, you will need more than 10 years to induct a new indan studied and built SSN. Far more....

"The Barracuda program to replace six existing SSNs was launched by the DGA in 1998. The development contract was awarded in 2006. More than 10 years of studies were needed to design an advanced submarine that fully matches the needs of the French Navy"

Long is the road for Indian SSN...
 

"The Barracuda program to replace six existing SSNs was launched by the DGA in 1998. The development contract was awarded in 2006. More than 10 years of studies were needed to design an advanced submarine that fully matches the needs of the French Navy"
The Indian program was launched in 1976. That was for SSN's .I believe somewhere 1999 they opted to go in for SSBN.

The first SSBN launched in 2009 was commissioned somewhere in 2016-17. The displaced tonnage is around 5-6k tonnes with the ability to launch 4 x 3-4k range single warhead missiles.

As is apparent from the hull & displaced tonnage, this was more of an SSN with the SSBN conversion being an after thought. All the said studies have long been concluded. What we will manufacture will be , in all likelihood , a 3rd gen SSN.

The only thing missing is the N reactor which is under development & hopefully will go on to power not just this SSN but also the next generation SSBN of 12-14k tonnes displacement with 10-12 missiles hopefully with 3-5 warhead MIRV capacity , which will see manufacturing commence somewhere in the mid 2020's
 
Electronic warfare and radar tech. Plus material quality and production techniques are still behind them. They also are ahead in engine tech development thanks to Eurojet..
Spain has Indra which is pretty decent
Germany has cassidian for electronics.
Both Germany and Spain are part of Airbus they are sophisticated compared to us. We could replace Spain. The thing is there is nothing unique we can add to the Scaf.

Tempest maybe would be a better learning experience but they don't have a carrier variant.

What if I tell ya we are way ahead compared to Germany and Spain?

We also use the same material and production techniques as the Europeans.

SCAF only needs the French and Tempest only needs the UK. All other countries are there to add to the numbers and look important, none of them are actually necessary. They will instead get in the way. The western nations have only three and a half aerospace powers when it comes to making fighter jets, US, France, UK and Sweden, in that order. All others are fit for nothing more than subcontracting work with lots of handholding.

We can't afford joining either program anyway. In case there is a need for either jet, we will simply import, either an emergency purchase of 2 squadrons or a license production program after a tender, so the usual. But that's all the way in 2045 or beyond.

SCAF, Tempest and FGFA are basically the same category of aircraft. If we decided we do not need to join one such program, then we have no need to join any other such program.
 
What if I tell ya we are way ahead compared to Germany and Spain?

We also use the same material and production techniques as the Europeans.

SCAF only needs the French and Tempest only needs the UK. All other countries are there to add to the numbers and look important, none of them are actually necessary. They will instead get in the way. The western nations have only three and a half aerospace powers when it comes to making fighter jets, US, France, UK and Sweden, in that order. All others are fit for nothing more than subcontracting work with lots of handholding.

We can't afford joining either program anyway. In case there is a need for either jet, we will simply import, either an emergency purchase of 2 squadrons or a license production program after a tender, so the usual. But that's all the way in 2045 or beyond.

SCAF, Tempest and FGFA are basically the same category of aircraft. If we decided we do not need to join one such program, then we have no need to join any other such program.
OTT and mods please move this to the appropriate thread.

Which fifth gen programme seems the best in terms of the ambition and which one should the IAF buy.
For me it's the scaf in terms of overall ambition but fgfa in realistic terms..
 
OTT and mods please move this to the appropriate thread.

Which fifth gen programme seems the best in terms of the ambition and which one should the IAF buy.
For me it's the scaf in terms of overall ambition but fgfa in realistic terms..

Su-57Mk2 will be ready in 2025. SCAF will be ready only in 2040 or 2045. By then there will be a Su-57 Mk3 or Mk4, perhaps a different designation. So naturally SCAF is more ambitious, which the Russians will have to catch up using a modernised version after the Su-57Mk2.

We won't have to rely on imports by then. Our overall import window is coming to a close very, very quickly.

Pretty soon, we will have to start working on true next gen aircraft that will carry hybrid propulsion systems. So combat aircraft will begin to branch into tactical fighter jets and strategic fighter jets. These strategic fighter jets will be the next evolution in air combat, like the jet engine was during the Cold War.
 
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Is there any news on the followup order to the Kalvari class? Does it make more sense to just order another 6 Kavari/Scorpenes with AIP or go for another class altogether?
 
Can you elaborate?

Doesn't it make more sense to go for AIP Scorpene to maintain uniformity among our fleet and reduce logistical issues/maintenance nightmares!

Scorpene won't fulfill all the requirements needed, like VLS. It's like the F-16 to the F-35. There are much more modern designs out.

Also the IN wants a bigger sub that has more weapons and can stay in the water for a longer period of time.

Our fleet requirement is big enough to avoid the issues of maintenance and logistics.
 
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Scorpene won't fulfill all the requirements needed, like VLS. It's like the F-16 to the F-35. There are much more modern designs out.

Also the IN wants a bigger sub that has more weapons and can stay in the water for a longer period of time.

Our fleet requirement is big enough to avoid the issues of maintenance and logistics.
Maybe a diesel electric variant of the Shortfin Barracuda!!

Is Naval Group Likely to Offer Shortfin Barracuda Over Scorpene-XL Class Submarine to India?
 

The Shortfin falls short of an SSN, and we are getting SSNs anyway, so it is a bit of a downgrade compared to what an SSN can do at more or less the same cost.

We are looking at something that's in between the Shortfin and the Scorpene. Like the SMX 3.0, which seems to be a smaller cousin of the Shortfin.