Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[maint1234]

Rafale is the best fighter plane India could have bought all things considered , since we were never offered the f35.
The mirage 2000 have proven their worth in the last 35 years of operation , both on the field and in reliability.
Do i wish the rafale was cheaper ? Absolutely but seeing the qatar deal for 24 +12 Rafales, India has not been overcharged at all. And i doubt the qataris have any compensation in the form of offset reinvestment.
Fyi- qataris paid 7.8 b usd for 24 rafales. You can do the maths

 

[Sathya]

If Rafale deal sucks.. That's best deal we got, it means other competitors were worse than that.

 

[randomradio]

Rafale is the best fighter plane India could have bought all things considered , since we were never offered the f35.

‘Rafales will provide India major advantage in Tibet in case of aerial combat’: Ex-IAFchief Dhanoa

Former IAF chief BS Dhanoa said the Rafale, with its fantastic electronic warfare suite and maneuverability, will be able use mountainous terrain in Tibet to its advantage and blind the enemy before India’s strike aircraft penetrate hostile airspace to carry out their missions.

www.hindustantimes.com

“In air combat, the first thing that is important is information dominance, you get information and deny the enemy the information. The key role the Rafales will play in Tibet is information dominance

What the ex-chief said is what I was getting at when I said the Rafale will do a very good job of ISR even compared to our existing assets.

NTRO is going to have a field day with all the information the Rafale collects. Especially when this information can be collected 24/7 from any area and then processed and executed in real time.

http://www.iwar.org.uk/iwar/resources/info-dominance/issue-paper.htm

"Information Dominance" - the degree of information superiority that allows the possessor to use information systems and capabilities to achieve an operational advantage in a conflict or to control the situation in operations other than war while denying those capabilities to the adversary. (Current - FM 100-6, Information Operations)

"Information Dominance" - A condition that results from the use of offensive and defensive information operations to build a comprehensive knowledge advantage at a time, place, and on decision issues critical to mission success. (Proposed - Draft TRADOC PAM 525-69, Information Operations)

Perfect information will never be achieved. Information superiority assumes lapses, and potentially in critical areas. Only information dominance retains an uncontested visibility of the information battlespace, with ascendancy at the decisive time, place and decision(s).

This is basically what ISR aircraft do. Furthermore the Rafale gets the added capability of actually using that information in real time and even acting against it by using kinetic options since it's a fighter jet.

Do i wish the rafale was cheaper ? Absolutely but seeing the qatar deal for 24 +12 Rafales, India has not been overcharged at all. And i doubt the qataris have any compensation in the form of offset reinvestment.
Fyi- qataris paid 7.8 b usd for 24 rafales. You can do the maths

Then they paid 1.2B for 12 more jets.

Even then our jets are much, much cheaper, since the price also includes ISE and 50% offsets.

 

[randomradio]

If Rafale deal sucks.. That's best deal we got, it means other competitors were worse than that.

Qatar paid $8.3B for 36 Rafales, Kuwait paid $8.7B for 28 Typhoons. Should end the debate right there.

 

[Hellfire]

@vstol Jockey @Falcon

Came across this article a few hours ago. He's an ex-pilot of the IAF. He used to be a test pilot. He was a wing commander, which is the equivalent rank as Lt Col, the same rank as Mr. Ajai Shukla, so he is not as constrained by OSA as those who are Col and above. He retired back in 2007, so he no longer has any up-to-date information from the IAF.

Rafale a cause for Celebrations or Concerns?

The first batch of French Rafale fighter aircraft arrived at the Airbase Ambala, in northern India. Although the event concerned only 05 tactical aircraft, the

vayuacademy.com

It's an interesting article because literally nothing in it specifically referring to Rafale is correct. Like, literally nothing is correct. So I'm wondering if retd WC Goyal is firing from a Chinese-supplied gun, the same as Mr. Ajai Shukla?

If it's true, then I'm disappointed that so many are coming out of the woodwork from within our forces. I just hope he's misinformed more than anything else. But gotta be careful.

Oh, know him personally and quite well. May I say, can just call him up right now?

He was a Mig-29 pilot who retired quite recently, flying with Spicetjet on a Bombardier Q400. For the bold, he was in Russia for 05 years as the team that was set for Mig 29 upgrade program and subsequently posted at Ozar for the Upgrade. Did a wonderful job.


Nope, he is fair. He is slightly off on Nirbhay, will convey it to him the same.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Everyone has an opinion which he or she is entitled to. However the final decisions are a compromise achieved with respect to various variables on the table. And Rafale was a fine decision.

 

[randomradio]

Oh, know him personally and quite well. May I say, can just call him up right now?

He was a Mig-29 pilot who retired quite recently, flying with Spicetjet on a Bombardier Q400. For the bold, he was in Russia for 05 years as the team that was set for Mig 29 upgrade program and subsequently posted at Ozar for the Upgrade. Did a wonderful job.


Nope, he is fair. He is slightly off on Nirbhay, will convey it to him the same.

Good that you say that.

If I am allowed to blow holes in the article, then...

As you've pointed out, Nirbhay is not ready yet. And the weapon system is different from the SCALP, since it's not as stealthy, even though SCALP is half to a third in range. SCALP is to the American JASSM as the Nirbhay is to the Tomahawk, so both serve different purposes. Nirbhay, or its definitive variant LRLACM, can be integrated on the Rafale.

Astra Mk1 is in no way comparable with Meteor. When it comes to range, the Meteor has 2x the range performance, maybe more, but definitely way more than the AIM-120D. Even the Astra Mk2 won't be its equivalent. Its only equivalent will be whatever comes out of the SFDR program, and that's years away.

Brahmos-M can be integrated on the Rafale. As can all other types of bombs and missiles that we use. The India-specific enhancements will come with the Litening G4 pod and SPICE from 2022 onwards. DRDO-developed quad-pack ejectors that can carry a variety of new generation bombs, like SAAW, and there's also the HSLD. An Israeli HMDS (Targo 2) and towed decoy (X-Guard) are also going to be part of the aircraft. So it's definitely not a closed architecture. The French will allow the integration of any weapon we want, including the ones coming up. Rafale uses the MIL-STD-1553B and STANAG 3910. The 3910 augments the low speed 1553B data bus with a high speed 20Mbps data bus and the mission computer called MDPU is built according to NATO standards.

I don't know how he got $400M for Rafale versus $60M for Mk1A, even though he clearly says the deal was $8B for 36 jets. Although the correct figure is $9B.

Lastly, believe it or not, the French have officially advertised the aircraft with both supercruise (with external payload) and LO/VLO capabilities. It can supercruise at mach 1.4 with 1 or 2 drop tanks and AAMs. Its passive localisation capabilties are accurate up to 0.1deg at 200Km, enough to launch BVR missiles without using radar or other sensors. SPECTRA will automatically engage any threat using the all-aspect MICA IR that comes within 15-20Km of the aircraft, even at the Rafale's six, paving the way for the introduction of anti-missile capabilities. And it has been officially revealed to have a frontal RCS similar to that of a sparrow.

So it's not a stretch to say the Rafale brings in true asymmetric capabilties.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Good that you say that.

If I am allowed to blow holes in the article, then...

As you've pointed out, Nirbhay is not ready yet. And the weapon system is different from the SCALP, since it's not as stealthy, even though SCALP is half to a third in range. SCALP is to the American JASSM as the Nirbhay is to the Tomahawk, so both serve different purposes. Nirbhay, or its definitive variant LRLACM, can be integrated on the Rafale.

Astra Mk1 is in no way comparable with Meteor. When it comes to range, the Meteor has 2x the range performance, maybe more, but definitely way more than the AIM-120D. Even the Astra Mk2 won't be its equivalent. Its only equivalent will be whatever comes out of the SFDR program, and that's years away.

Brahmos-M can be integrated on the Rafale. As can all other types of bombs and missiles that we use. The India-specific enhancements will come with the Litening G4 pod and SPICE from 2022 onwards. DRDO-developed quad-pack ejectors that can carry a variety of new generation bombs, like SAAW, and there's also the HSLD. An Israeli HMDS (Targo 2) and towed decoy (X-Guard) are also going to be part of the aircraft. So it's definitely not a closed architecture. The French will allow the integration of any weapon we want, including the ones coming up. Rafale uses the MIL-STD-1553B and STANAG 3910. The 3910 augments the low speed 1553B data bus with a high speed 20Mbps data bus and the mission computer called MDPU is built according to NATO standards.

I don't know how he got $400M for Rafale versus $60M for Mk1A, even though he clearly says the deal was $8B for 36 jets. Although the correct figure is $9B.

Lastly, believe it or not, the French have officially advertised the aircraft with both supercruise (with external payload) and LO/VLO capabilities. It can supercruise at mach 1.4 with 1 or 2 drop tanks and AAMs. Its passive localisation capabilties are accurate up to 0.1deg at 200Km, enough to launch BVR missiles without using radar or other sensors. SPECTRA will automatically engage any threat using the all-aspect MICA IR that comes within 15-20Km of the aircraft, even at the Rafale's six, paving the way for the introduction of anti-missile capabilities. And it has been officially revealed to have a frontal RCS similar to that of a sparrow.

So it's not a stretch to say the Rafale brings in true asymmetric capabilties.

Sir I read a discussion on Our neighborhood forum , regarding how to beat Rafale

It said that if 2 AESA equipped JF 17s can simultaneously engage a Rafale , the Rafale' s jamming capacity will be down by 50 percent which will then allow a Third JF 17 to sneak in for an IR missile shot

Basically they are looking to throw a large number of Missiles at Rafale from all directions , hoping one would hit it or Rafale would have to Break away

 

[randomradio]

Sir I read a discussion on Our neighborhood forum , regarding how to beat Rafale

It said that if 2 AESA equipped JF 17s can simultaneously engage a Rafale , the Rafale' s jamming capacity will be down by 50 percent which will then allow a Third JF 17 to sneak in for an IR missile shot

Basically they are looking to throw a large number of Missiles at Rafale from all directions , hoping one would hit it or Rafale would have to Break away

I see that as giving the Rafale 3 kills.

 

[Amit228]

Can we use some common sense here? Rafale's bid was $85M per jet as flyaway cost. Typhoon's was $124M. Even after upgrades and modifications, Rafale was sold at $105M per jet for a new version, still less than the insanely high $124M for the Typhoon, likely become even more expensive now.

Also you can't simply claim the 1.7B was spent entirely only to make Rafale MMRCA compliant. The only things the Rafale really lacked were the HMDS and IRST, which are actually not expensive, and none of them affect aerodynamics, so integration costs are actually very less. Everything else was required for all other jets, including the Typhoon. In some cases, the competitors were not even capable of getting these upgrades. For example, Rafale's VDR was extended to 16 hours because Rafale can sustain a 16-hour sortie. Others obviously can't.

Most of the money would have gone into integrating Indian/Israeli weapons mainly, including the Litening G4 with SPICE and HSLD. There's also the less spoken about EMP weapon integration along with the SAAW, which probably uses the same ejector, and the towed decoy. The Typhoon also needed to get all this stuff, and doesn't come free. This is where most of the ISE money would have gone into, since these modifications require extensive flight and RCS testing. Weapons integration is very expensive.

So using the ISE as a way to critic the Rafale is quite dumb. All the jets needed similar expenses to bring it up to Indian standards.

Now the thing which boggles my mind is... French are paying 2.3 billions $ for f4.2 upgrade plan which is most comprehensive of the upgrades as it's include rbe2 aesa conformal arrays.. most prolly it would be GaN based.. same goes for spectra upgrade with GaN antennas nd will also include the engine upgrades (75kn thrust for each m88) among other significant upgrades...

Nd we are paying 2 billions $ for ISE "requirements" as stated by Nambi sir.. which doesn't include any of the major radar (GaN conformal arrays for 360° coverage) & engine upgrade (75kn thrust derivative of m88)... Other than we will hv irst, towed decoys, some indian nd Israeli weapons integration, low band jammer et al... Don't u think the cost for ISE requirements are too exorbitant when compared to the upgrades planned for french f4.2 upgrades...

I mean diffence is only few million dollars between the two upgrades.. however french upgrades will hv most comprehensive upgrades nd our upgrades will lack those like major Radar (GaN conformal arrays) & engine upgrades...

Are we missing something or there's more to what meets the eyes?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

I see that as giving the Rafale 3 kills.

Maybe we should test it against Su 30 or Mirage 2000 to know the Limits of RBE 2 AESA. And SPECTRA

 

[randomradio]

Now the thing which boggles my mind is... French are paying 2.3 billions $ for f4.2 upgrade plan which is most comprehensive of the upgrades as it's include rbe2 aesa conformal arrays.. most prolly it would be GaN based.. same goes for spectra upgrade with GaN antennas nd will also include the engine upgrades (75kn thrust for each m88) among other significant upgrades...

Nd we are paying 2 billions $ for ISE "requirements" as stated by Nambi sir.. which doesn't include any of the major radar (GaN conformal arrays for 360° coverage) & engine upgrade (75kn thrust derivative of m88)... Other than we will hv irst, towed decoys, some indian nd Israeli weapons integration, low band jammer et al... Don't u think the cost for ISE requirements are too exorbitant when compared to the upgrades planned for french f4.2 upgrades...

I mean diffence is only few million dollars between the two upgrades.. however french upgrades will hv most comprehensive upgrades nd our upgrades will lack those like major Radar (GaN conformal arrays) & engine upgrades...

Are we missing something or there's more to what meets the eyes?

Integration costs on new gen aircraft are very high, which is why it has only a few types of weapons even after 2 decades of service.

The technologies going into F4.2 were spent over many years in pieces and this 2.3B is practically the final contract. They developed all the foundation technologies over the last many years and are now piecing everything together. So 2.3B isn't the full R&D cost of the F4.2 config.

Maybe we should test it against Su 30 or Mirage 2000 to know the Limits of RBE 2 AESA. And SPECTRA

Will obviously happen.

 

[Vicky]

[/QUOTE]

No. New parts mean new test

The Rafale F3R doesn't need AWACS because the data dissemination and decision making will be slower than what the Rafale itself can do on its own. When it comes to ISR, its hardware is as good or better than what we already have. And with its ability to operate closer to the target, it's a superior ISR platform. The biggest advantage is the Rafale's intelligence is actionable in real time. Our current assets's ability to create actionable intelligence and mission tasking moves at a snail's pace in comparison.

The Rafale F4.2 won't need AWACS at all because the AWACS will be inferior to the Rafale in every aspect, including detection range, number of targets tracked etc. For example, a Phalcon radar will operate 100Km inside our own territory and look at stuff 400-500Km away, effectively giving it a range of 300-400Km inside enemy territory. Otoh, Rafale F4.2 should be able to see the same targets from 600Km away when flying 10Km inside our airspace.

Basically, even if you upgrade the AWACS with the same hardware that can see all the way to horizon, the Rafale will still fly closer to the threats and see all over to the horizon anyway. During earlier times, a fighter jet could only see up to 150Km, whereas AWACS could see up to 400Km, so it was a force multiplier then. Nowadays, fighter jets have started having more "relevant" range than AWACS. For example, Irbis with 400Km range is effectively similar to an AWACS when you fly closer to the enemy, so you can imagine what a GaN upgrade will do, and later photonics.

If you recall, @vstol Jockey and I used to have discussions on how to fit AWACS sensors on new gen aircraft like MSA and FGFA. It's primarily because AWACS are no longer survivable. In a year or two, within our own theatre, AWACS will become a "previous day of war" aircraft, since the Chinese will have operationalised AWACS-killers with an estimated range of 400-700Km. The same with other ISR and EW aircraft that rely on slow business jets. So all that capability has to be moved into fighter jets. And Rafale F3R is the IAF's first step towards that. It's created a significant assymmetry against both our adversaries.

Simply put, AWACS+fighter combo is 4th generation, or even early operational 5th gen. Late 5th generation to early 6th gen eliminates the need for that combo. So if we get 36 Rafale F4.2, it's the equivalent of buying 36 Phalcon++ (+) 36 ISR++ (+) any number of 4th gen fighter jets.

All look like fairy tales. Do you simply comprehend what you are talking? 600km range for fighter borne radar in today's time? The power required to fire up such an radar and the small size of an radar. Even with Bars huge range there are questions on its accuracy and reliability. IAF called it mini Awacs (it did detect missiles fired at it) but it can't provide situational awareness to other fighters through network centric warfare.

An Awacs can do comprehensive checks at different multiple modes fastly and effectively at different heights and depth. Its not the same in fighters. I have seen various proclamation of yours and you would like to give an impression like India has tech to.mske F22 but this is the most hilarious of your claims.

The so called Awacs killers will take sometime to be deployed and yet still more useful.on the Pakistani border now. All of USN and Marines are still dependent on EW aircrafts yet. So let's be humble first to learn to make pie first before bragging.

 

[randomradio]

No. New parts mean new test


All look like fairy tales. Do you simply comprehend what you are talking? 600km range for fighter borne radar in today's time? The power required to fire up such an radar and the small size of an radar. Even with Bars huge range there are questions on its accuracy and reliability. IAF called it mini Awacs (it did detect missiles fired at it) but it can't provide situational awareness to other fighters through network centric warfare.

An Awacs can do comprehensive checks at different multiple modes fastly and effectively at different heights and depth. Its not the same in fighters. I have seen various proclamation of yours and you would like to give an impression like India has tech to.mske F22 but this is the most hilarious of your claims.

The so called Awacs killers will take sometime to be deployed and yet still more useful.on the Pakistani border now. All of USN and Marines are still dependent on EW aircrafts yet. So let's be humble first to learn to make pie first before bragging.

Um... The Russians are already talking about developing fighter jet radars that can detect and identify the face of a person from 500Km away. I doubt you know much about power and radar.

You are confused about the Bars and the era it was from. And it could provide data to other fighter jets. As for "network centric warfare", did you forget you can make conference video calls from your smartphone today? Could you do that back in 2002? How many cameras did your cellphone have in 2002, in case you did have a cellphone then?

Yes, we have the tech to make the F-22, which is why we are starting with a program to make an aircraft that's better than the F-22. If we didn't have such tech, then we wouldn't be starting one, just like Sudan.

So called AWACS killers have been deployed since decades. Google R-33 and AIM-154. They have now reached the point where they can now kill with pretty high Pk. I doubt you know much about the subject you are critiquing me on.

Can you tell me what "USN and Marines are still dependent on EW aircrafts" means? What is EW?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

All such futuristic concepts will have to
Be Rigorously Tested for their Real Time
Efficiency

But Longer Range AAMs will be Reality soon

How are they guided to their Targets is another question

When a Rafale gets closer to the enemy border , it will be fired upon by both SAMs and AAMs

At that point it will have to Turn

So a Long Endurance AWACs though flying 100 km inside will still be useful

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Um... The Russians are already talking about developing fighter jet radars that can detect and identify the face of a person from 500Km away. I doubt you know much about power and radar.

You are confused about the Bars and the era it was from. And it could provide data to other fighter jets. As for "network centric warfare", did you forget you can make conference video calls from your smartphone today? Could you do that back in 2002? How many cameras did your cellphone have in 2002, in case you did have a cellphone then?

Yes, we have the tech to make the F-22, which is why we are starting with a program to make an aircraft that's better than the F-22. If we didn't have such tech, then we wouldn't be starting one, just like Sudan.

So called AWACS killers have been deployed since decades. Google R-33 and AIM-154. They have now reached the point where they can now kill with pretty high Pk. I doubt you know much about the subject you are critiquing me on.

Can you tell me what "USN and Marines are still dependent on EW aircrafts" means? What is EW?

If fighter planes get such powerful Radars , so as to make AWACS redundant , then AWACS can also be modified and Repurposed for Jamming purposes

A large sized aircraft carrying powerful jammers flying inside your territory can make all incoming missiles lose their way and fall off their trajectory

 

[jetray]

The Russians are already talking about developing fighter jet radars that can detect and identify the face of a person from 500Km away

Interesting please provide more info & src for the same.

 

[randomradio]

If fighter planes get such powerful Radars , so as to make AWACS redundant , then AWACS can also be modified and Repurposed for Jamming purposes

A large sized aircraft carrying powerful jammers flying inside your territory can make all incoming missiles lose their way and fall off their trajectory

The time for using brute force is gone. Power doesn't do anything. Now everything is smart.

Even if you do want to use power, then the fighter jet will still do a better job from a closer distance. Power drops really fast really quickly based on distance. So what's many kilowatts at the tranmitter could be fractions of a single watt at the receiver.

Everything you do is better if you are closer to the target.

Interesting please provide more info & src for the same.

Did you put that smiley on purpose?

Anyway google photonics and photonic radar. It will take you where you need to go.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

The time for using brute force is gone. Power doesn't do anything. Now everything is smart.

Even if you do want to use power, then the fighter jet will still do a better job from a closer distance. Power drops really fast really quickly based on distance. So what's many kilowatts at the tranmitter could be fractions of a single watt at the receiver.

Everything you do is better if you are closer to the target.


Did you put that smiley on purpose?

Anyway google photonics and photonic radar. It will take you where you need to go.

As I see it , In The Future Battle Field
The ElectroMagnetic Spectrum will become More Denser and Complicated

Ie more jammers and more counter measure ,Support Measures --
ESM ,ECM ,EMP warheads or devices

So why chuck out a Tried and tested piece of Equipment for some Known Unknowns

Earlier it was said that Slow moving Aircraft and Tanks would become
ir relevant

But Hawks are getting weaponised and A 10 still is a formidable attack aircraft

And Battle tanks are getting better and more powerful with every decade

 

[Vicky]

Um... The Russians are already talking about developing fighter jet radars that can detect and identify the face of a person from 500Km away. I doubt you know much about power and radar.

You are confused about the Bars and the era it was from. And it could provide data to other fighter jets. As for "network centric warfare", did you forget you can make conference video calls from your smartphone today? Could you do that back in 2002? How many cameras did your cellphone have in 2002, in case you did have a cellphone then?

Yes, we have the tech to make the F-22, which is why we are starting with a program to make an aircraft that's better than the F-22. If we didn't have such tech, then we wouldn't be starting one, just like Sudan.

So called AWACS killers have been deployed since decades. Google R-33 and AIM-154. They have now reached the point where they can now kill with pretty high Pk. I doubt you know much about the subject you are critiquing me on.

Can you tell me what "USN and Marines are still dependent on EW aircrafts" means? What is EW?

Man what you had claimed in the past 2 years had come true, IAF would have had world beating capabilities. But it's another matter convincing IaF is another league altogether.

A basic guy with an understanding of engineering will know one thing. Making anything new will need more time for testing. In electronics it's even more. But again you claim this and that with no basis, no links, wrt Indian industry with no experience and some how private money will solve all that. I would like to tag golden claims of yours so that it can shown in the future for good laugh purposes.

As for laughs, did you know that an company called Nortel made a first touch screen phone in 90's, created protocols for 3G, 4G (tested them.at lab) and started work on 5G as early as 2000s? But it took nearly 15 years for such tech to be commercialized. A reason why it failed cos it invested in too much tech that can't be monetized immediately. Yes all the tech you are talking bout was there. Its just manufacturing them is easy now.

As for fighters even though tech gets updated every year the fighters can't be updated every year. Even if a small part has to be changed it has to go through vigorous testing even using an testbed. US has tons of data and iteration of every product it has perfected over years and it's budget help it as well. With no basic understanding you would come and claim that we have basic techs to F22 with no proof and just words. I can only laugh at your words. This forum does needs it's hilarious claims master anyway.