The panic buys

Why are we buying to begin with, there is no war...
Have we actually bought anything yet ?

Ammo and Spares are restocked in large numbers everytime we feel a possibility of conflict.

But what emergency procurement has actually happened till now ??? Exclude the procurements made for SFs.

I think only of the small batch buy of SPIKE ATGM. And Russian bunker busters. Nothing more in the last 12 months. Nothing.

People like to make hype and talk. My father everyday by the time he completes his yoga routine and turns on TV, media is like almost going to bomb the shit out of Pakistan and China. It's upon us to ignore those things which we know are not true.
 
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Does it really matter?

Tenders come with time limits. And the big ones come with diplomatic pressure as well. So money is released for such deals quickly, as and when they finish.

But without tenders, you are only left with GTG type deals, especially with Russia and the US. So these barely come with any time limits, and the resultant pressure to start such deals only comes from the forces, which can easily be brushed aside.
 
One thing I liked about BJP period is they were never stingy in spending in house.
They built roads., upgraded bases, basically kept money inside.

But as the situation demands, we also need to order in-house weapons too..

We cannot keep buying foreign weapons for long..

LCH & Tejas Mk1 A need to be ordered..
We never know, the situation now may extend beyond 3 years too..

Where these weapons can make up the sustainable numbers for us.

If there is a war with China, all these emergency purchases won't last for a week.. Then what?

I hope we don't buy Russian light tanks now, everything from training, logistics , maintenance all need to be set up..

Instead we should opt for some modifications of existing weaponary or something like kestrel should be done...

Where we can increase the orders and sustain it for long.. Money can be rotated after every cycle in buying more weapons.

I would have been happier if they ordered some Falcons from DRAL to mate with Netra ..

Or modified some loss making civilian Indian airline planes into tanker with isreali help.


Making only short term plan will put us in tough spot once the validity is gone.

Need to invest in medium term solutions too and rush it up.
And we are Not testing our industry capabilities at times of necessity


Ok now they are linking L& T Vajra k9 chassis with some turret for light tank role.

Very good.. Hope they do it successfully and very fast.
 
Have we actually bought anything yet ?

Ammo and Spares are restocked in large numbers everytime we feel a possibility of conflict.

But what emergency procurement has actually happened till now ??? Exclude the procurements made for SFs.

I think only of the small batch buy of SPIKE ATGM. And Russian bunker busters. Nothing more in the last 12 months. Nothing.

People like to make hype and talk. My father everyday by the time he completes his yoga routine and turns on TV, media is like almost going to bomb the shit out of Pakistan and China. It's upon us to ignore those things which we know are not true.
that comment was specific to @randomradio who once said... so what, there is no war anyways :)
 
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that comment was specific to @randomradio who once said... so what, there is no war anyways :)

Weird that you are ridiculing something what I said is correct. The govt prioritised systems based on threats post 2020, like today. Not when you brought it up. We have those 72000 SIG 716s as well.

You were bothered about our artillery program, I asked you to check back later, and now look, we have those guns. All that you complained about are in the process of being inducted. The K9s have even finished induction and half the M777s should become available by winter. While Dhanush induction is going on, almost all the FH77s have also become available. Basically, when it comes to pretty much everything you argued about, we have all of those in pretty reasonable numbers, enough to fight a limited war with China.
 
Weird that you are ridiculing something what I said is correct. The govt prioritised systems based on threats post 2020, like today. Not when you brought it up. We have those 72000 SIG 716s as well.

You were bothered about our artillery program, I asked you to check back later, and now look, we have those guns. All that you complained about are in the process of being inducted. The K9s have even finished induction and half the M777s should become available by winter. While Dhanush induction is going on, almost all the FH77s have also become available. Basically, when it comes to pretty much everything you argued about, we have all of those in pretty reasonable numbers, enough to fight a limited war with China.
What's the total SPH's that the 2nd largest standing army on this planet operates again? is it 100 or is 50?

How many Dhanush Howitzers, a system that OFB has possessed the ToT for good 4 decades built?

it took MoD close to a decade to buy some rifles. Great going...

Where is ATAGS?
 
What's the total SPH's that the 2nd largest standing army on this planet operates again? is it 100 or is 50?

How many do you think we need?

How many Dhanush Howitzers, a system that OFB has possessed the ToT for good 4 decades built?

Agree. OFB and all DPSUs must disappear.

it took MoD close to a decade to buy some rifles. Great going...

Army's fault. Too many cartoony requirements.

But when they came back to reality and zeroed in on a gun, the MoD signed a contract in a matter of months and got the entire consignment 1.5 years later. This is one of those rare instances where the MoD cannot be faulted.

Where is ATAGS?

Same old story, still undergoing development. It's a DRDO product after all.
 
When TONBO Imaging came into existence, the Indian armed forces were far from its list or clients. So much so that other than few attempts at showcasing their platforms and systems developed entirely basis their own IPRs to army and MoD officials, there was a conspicuous lack of effort on their part.

Instead, TONBO focused its attention towards US security forces and NATO countries, where they found immediate traction due to their revolutionary concepts. The Indian Army would be made aware if TONBO's existence entirely by happenstance when the Indian Army chief happened to visit a CQB training facility. He was impressed by the sights and was fundamentally surprised that these cutting edge equipment donned by SOCOM operators came from Indian sources.

Post that a few representations were made to TONBO and discussions carried forward. But there was really no movement and TONBO was focused on its original market.

Everything would change during the Pathankot assault by Pak specialist units. Lacking thermal sights to operate in the dark, the Indian Army and NSG requested ToNBO and received 2 copies of sights on a trial basis. The rest is history.

After that it would be the Indian armed forces who would push to set up purchase deals with TONBO. The push came primarily from the armed forces.

A similar approach was adopted by MKU. While they are happy to receive and fulfil orders from Indian armed forces, their target market are NATO countries and others.

These firms, combined with the developer of Netra drones are the only start ups who been able to make a viable business in defense space from India.

Even for larger more established firms, for example TAS, they have been able to create a viable business in defense and aerospace primarily because they serve global demand of Boeing. Their primary market too is not India

On the other hand, L&T defence with India as it's primary market is looking at a substantial loss on its investments in the port facility and its manufacturing facility for SPH due to lack of timely reorders. If that happens, they will rethink any future investments in defence for a long time.

The point of telling all of this is that any start up and in fact any business that wants to enter into defence/aerospace must ensure that India is not their primary market if they want to survive. The myriad, strenuously slow procurement processes and lack of a definite purchase requirements and schedule means that orders take decades to place, and then arrive at piecemeal rates, without any guarantee of repeat orders, while being completely at risk of arbitrary cancellation or postponement.

From a business standpoint, any business that puts Indian armed forces as primary clients is likely to wind up long before any orders come through.

I wish SSS defense understands this and diversifies away from just targeting Indian agencies and forces. Else it runs the risk of failing.
Guys,

I sent this to Vivek Krishnan (CEO - SSS Defence) on Linkedin and this was his response

1595905778410.png
 
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Honestly as an Indian it's quite embarassing to see our Defence minister running away to some country to beg for emergency weapons and asking for support. A 1Billion + nation needs to stand on its feet. I guess Chinese got what they wanted. They now know how the indian media, politicians react in threat of war and secretly laugh around. There will be peace of 3-4 years so Indian PM and DM can think china is our Bhai again before they do blitzkrieg on us.

And this running commentary on Rafale is another shameless thing I am seeing on twitter. As if it's a game changing weapon which can take out entire PLAAF. An fighter is as good as the environment it fights in. With hardly 5 Awacs that's nothing to brag around.

With Indian media running an circus led by Admiral Goswami and his cohorts has really led Indian people who have really no idea on our procurement except seeing some shiny ads that Indian Army is ready for war. With our experience we can give an bloody nose to the Chinese. But today's is a warfare led by technology and air superiority is a must. Bravery can only take us thus far.

While people are appreciating India investing more in infra, there is a feeling that we are investing more than the economy could return in a short span of time and will take a longer gestation period and only projects with immediate financial benefits should be fast tracked. We are also giving insane targets to railways and electrification which will require huge investment in a short span of time which won't generate any positive revenue in near term. And a balance has to be found btw defence and economic capabilities. The first casualties of any budget is sadly defence. Basic defence (forget offensive) must be fulfilled always. When time is right then we can plan on offense. But here we are, not even having basic defence capabilities for 2 front war except in words.
 
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An Army that touts 3:1 conventional superiority should atleast posses twice of what PA has, so 860.
One thing PLA has improved a lot is its artillery. Today it has more Truck mounted or SPH guns than it has towed ones.

If we want some 3000 guns, we should look at 1000 155/52 towed, 500 ULH category towed ,1000 Truck mounted and atleast 500-600 SPHs.
 
Did IA realize that they need light tanks only after china occupied a lake in ladakh ?
The original RFI is more than 15 years old now. But it was realised for defensive purposes, every possible place along LAC where Tanks could have been utilised, we could very well deploy our T72CIA and T90S.

Also even now, the Army has not yet officially asked the MoD for a new AoN. All that has happened is that a certain section of Army decision makers have put forward this idea.
 
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An Army that touts 3:1 conventional superiority should atleast posses twice of what PA has, so 860.

Okay, so TOEs are prepared simply on numbers like that? So if Pakistan has 12000 men in a division, we must have 36000? And if Pakistan has 45 tanks in a regiment, we should have 135 tanks? So, by extension, if Pakistan has 18 SPGs per regiment, we should have 54?

PAF has 18 jets per squadron, I suppose we should raise our squadrons with 54 jets as well.

What about Mother of all Disasters- MOD?

Once the DPSUs disappear, the MoD-DPSU nexus will be gone. MoD will be forced to come up to the standards of the private industry since they fall under a lot of laws that make such companies more transparent in their dealings. You can then start talking about SEBI and what not.

Even today, both MoD babus and DPSUs are doing their best to scuttle private industry from taking advantage of the emergency purchases.
 
Did IA realize that they need light tanks only after china occupied a lake in ladakh ?

The requirement for light tanks is many decades old.

DRDO even made one in the 90s based on the BMP and it didn't suit the purpose. Other than that, other requirements were so much more important that the light tank requirement never saw the light of day.

Light tanks have come back into the limelight since they are now slowly becoming affordable. The Chinese began making their light tank after they became a $10T economy.
 
Did IA realize that they need light tanks only after china occupied a lake in ladakh ?

The 2009 light tank RFI had required the modularly constructed platforms to be ‘highly manoeuvrable’ with surveillance and communication capability, to provide the tanks flexibility for multi-purpose operations.

In 2009 the light tanks were envisaged as part of the two mountain divisions that were then under raising – and have since been commissioned for deployment along the 3,488-km-long disputed Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China in the northeast and in Ladakh.

Responses to the RFI were received, but thereafter no formal tender was issued as the entire proposal like many others was shelved because of the army’s indifference, disputes over indigenising the programme and, above all, competing financial claims by existing T72, T90 and Arjun main battle tank (MBT) ventures.


If you dig deeper, the requirement was felt way back in 1980s. Yes, we are late by may 40 years.
 
Okay, so TOEs are prepared simply on numbers like that? So if Pakistan has 12000 men in a division, we must have 36000? And if Pakistan has 45 tanks in a regiment, we should have 135 tanks? So, by extension, if Pakistan has 18 SPGs per regiment, we should have 54?

PAF has 18 jets per squadron, I suppose we should raise our squadrons with 54 jets as well.
Not at all... but if Pakistan has 1 division for a geographical area, If you claim 3:1 superiority, you should be able to field at least 2 Divs in the same theater of operation with one in spare.

When Pakistan operates 458 SPH's and you barely have 50, you don't get to tout conventional superiority.

and yes if Pakistan has 12000 men in a division, you should be able to field at least two divisions of the same size, if Pakistan has 45 tanks in the regiment, your total strength across all regiments should be equal to three times irrespective of your regiment's size structure, i.e your regiment could be sized at 30 Tanks but you better have; for every 2 of their 45 unit regiment you should have 9 of your 30 tank unit regiment, where you can field at least twice the units i.e 90 unit (3 regiments) against their single regiment.

I thought the "ratio" would be a simple enough term to comprehend?
 
Not at all... but if Pakistan has 1 division for a geographical area, If you claim 3:1 superiority, you should be able to field at least 2 Divs in the same theater of operation with one in spare.

When Pakistan operates 458 SPH's and you barely have 50, you don't get to tout conventional superiority.

and yes if Pakistan has 12000 men in a division, you should be able to field at least two divisions of the same size, if Pakistan has 45 tanks in the regiment, your total strength across all regiments should be equal to three times irrespective of your regiment's size structure, i.e your regiment could be sized at 30 Tanks but you better have; for every 2 of their 45 unit regiment you should have 9 of your 30 tank unit regiment, where you can field at least twice the units i.e 90 unit (3 regiments) against their single regiment.

I thought the "ratio" would be a simple enough term to comprehend?

That's now how it works though. You need localised superiority in numbers, not absolute superiority.

Our II Corps has 3+1 armoured brigades, and can be supported by another armoured brigade from elsewhere, like an IABG or an armoured brigade from a RAPIDS. This will give us a localised armour superiority over a Pakistani infantry division or two. And once we have taken over an objective, the area will then be guarded by our own troops, and our Strike Corps can then move on to the next objective. And if the Pakistanis need to retake that objective, they will now have to bring in three times the number against the units protecting that area. To support that, you do not need 3x the troops across the entire army.

So when you say the Pakistanis have 300 SPGs, so we must have 900 SPGs, you are thinking in terms of WW2 era tactics, not modern warfare.

The main objective in modern warfare is to get the enemy to bunch up in one place and then bomb them from the air. Like the case with Longewala, where all it took was 1 company to route an entire brigade. Different story that they bunched up on their own.

SPGs are distributed based on the number of armoured brigades you have. Since armoured brigades are required to speahead any attack and require high speed mobility in all terrains, you need SPGs connected to the armoured brigades to meet such requirements. The rest of the army doesn't need SPGs, towed artillery is more than enough. I would recommend looking up the American BCT TOE. Out of the 32 brigades they operate, only the armoured brigades have SPGs, no different from ours.

Your only argument is we need a bigger army.