The panic buys

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is worried that an order for a regiment (45 vehicles) of Russian 2SDS ‘Sprut’ light tanks for use in high-altitude terrains like Ladakh will kill its own under-the-wraps light tank project. The infantry wants more Israeli-built ‘Spike’ anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) even as the DRDO is readying an indigenous man portable anti-tank guided missile (MPATGM) for the army.
What under the wraps light tank? Is light tank a project that should be kept under wraps when your enemy has already a better protected and better armed tank. DRDO is as useless as the ofb. We could have had spike atgms produced by l&t but no drdo wanted to make a technologically inferior version to sell to the IA.
Also sprut is the best option for the IA. It will be the only tank that will have a sure shot chance to take out the type 15 because it's the only tank that can fire the svinets apfsds (740 mm rha penetration) in Indian armour inventory. We just need the drdo to uparmour the sprut to handle the first shot by the type 15's.
 
Just One percent of Indians care for creating
A Successful Domestic Military Industrial Complex

But everyone wants to Win the War against China and Pakistan

FTP ie emergency purchases will Always win against a slow tracked indigenous development programme

If we didn't set our house in order these many years.. We cannot expect that to happen in emergency.

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SAAW was found to have integration issues with Mirage during balakote.

What happened to it now.?

Not able to integrate with any of aircraft s?

I think Instead of doing research on every thing, we need put concentrated efforts onto something and make it success ful.

Make that path to success a model for others to tread.
 
If we didn't set our house in order these many years.. We cannot expect that to happen in emergency.

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SAAW was found to have integration issues with Mirage during balakote.

What happened to it now.?

Not able to integrate with any of aircraft s?

I think Instead of doing research on every thing, we need put concentrated efforts onto something and make it success ful.

Make that path to success a model for others to tread.

I am talking of larger systemic issues

These Emergency purchases will be of the order of Several Billion dollars

Then we will have more expenditure on
Manning the LAC in winter and beyond

If we opt for kinetic action , that will lead to another spike in expenditure ie
Replacement of Equipment worn out and damaged in war

Human COSTS are another matter altogether

Then since the relationship with China would be embittered in the event of a Conflict , we will need to be prepared for a sudden escalation

Everything adds upto a Nice Fat Bill to be paid

In such difficult Financial circumstances the axe will fall on Domestically developed weapon systems
 
I am talking of larger systemic issues

These Emergency purchases will be of the order of Several Billion dollars

Then we will have more expenditure on
Manning the LAC in winter and beyond

If we opt for kinetic action , that will lead to another spike in expenditure ie
Replacement of Equipment worn out and damaged in war

Human COSTS are another matter altogether

Then since the relationship with China would be embittered in the event of a Conflict , we will need to be prepared for a sudden escalation

Everything adds upto a Nice Fat Bill to be paid

In such difficult Financial circumstances the axe will fall on Domestically developed weapon systems

One thing I liked about BJP period is they were never stingy in spending in house.
They built roads., upgraded bases, basically kept money inside.

But as the situation demands, we also need to order in-house weapons too..

We cannot keep buying foreign weapons for long..

LCH & Tejas Mk1 A need to be ordered..
We never know, the situation now may extend beyond 3 years too..

Where these weapons can make up the sustainable numbers for us.

If there is a war with China, all these emergency purchases won't last for a week.. Then what?

I hope we don't buy Russian light tanks now, everything from training, logistics , maintenance all need to be set up..

Instead we should opt for some modifications of existing weaponary or something like kestrel should be done...

Where we can increase the orders and sustain it for long.. Money can be rotated after every cycle in buying more weapons.

I would have been happier if they ordered some Falcons from DRAL to mate with Netra ..

Or modified some loss making civilian Indian airline planes into tanker with isreali help.


Making only short term plan will put us in tough spot once the validity is gone.

Need to invest in medium term solutions too and rush it up.
And we are Not testing our industry capabilities at times of necessity
 
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Amid border tensions with China, the armed forces go on a weapon buying spree. Even as a robust indigenous defence production set-up remains the need of the hour.

As the Himalayan stand-off between the Indian Army and the People’s Liberation Army of China in eastern Ladakh entered its fourth month, the country’s armed forces embarked on a fresh round of emergency fast-track procurements (FTPs) of weapons and ammunition to replenish their arsenal. The defence ministry is buzzing with activity as files and proposals are being drafted for approvals in South Block with a speed that only crisis brings.

On the anvil are a slew of weapon imports, including light tanks, tank ammunition, surface-to-air missiles,assault rifles and drones, estimated at over Rs 10,000 crore from three of India’s biggest defence suppliers, Russia, the US and Israel. The weapons are meant to equip the army and the air force forward-deployed in Ladakh since late May. On July 16, the defence ministry allowed emergency procurements worth Rs 500 crore for each of the three services, with no restrictions on the number of such programmes.

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The army, which has deployed four divisions in the theatre of action, has the most numerous requirements. It wants kamikaze drones, anti-tank guided munitions, shoulder-fired missiles, high-mobility vehicles and GPS-guided shells for the newly-acquired ultra-light howitzers, and even ammunition for small arms (see Fast-Track Purchases). The air force wants additional shipments of Derby and MICA air-to-air missiles and Spice-1000 precision-guided munitions for its fighters. Rather than wait to integrate Israeli munitions on its Rafale fighter jets, it has opted for French Hammer precision-guided munitions to equip its first five jets flying in from France, literally into the thick of action, on July 29. A defence ministry official indicated that almost 100 cases are in the contractual process, to be concluded by the end of the current financial year, March 2021.

The world over, defence purchases are a cumbersome process lasting several years. In India, the byzantine procurement process involves the civil and military bureaucracy as well as the political leadership, which means it could take even a decade to purchase anything from a sophisticated fighter jet to a bulletproof jacket. The armed forces have to identify requirements, look for hardware that meets their needs, conduct extensive trials and finally invite competing bids from global suppliers. The arrival of the Rafale jets is the culmination of a process that began soon after the 1999 Kargil War, with the contract finally signed in 2016.

Emergency FTPs, which shorten the defence ministry’s cumbersome weapons acquisition processes, first began during the Kargil War. The army found its ammunition stocks insufficient to last even that short border conflict. Artillery, essential for softening up enemy targets before soldiers can move in, relies on a constant supply of ammunition. A 155 mm Bofors gun, for instance, requires at least 250 shells per day to fire in an offensive mode. In Kargil, even as Indian artillery trained their gunsights at features like Tiger Hill and in Batalik, army and defence ministry procurement teams were flying into Cape Town and Tel Aviv to top up the depleting stocks of shells.

The FTP, a beguiling enemy-at-the-gates syndrome, has been a feature of every military crisis ever since. The purchases triggered by the ongoing Ladakh stand-off would be the third occasion in recent years when the armed forces went on an emergency weapons and ammunition-buying spree. FTPs had also followed the cross-border raids by Indian forces in the aftermath of the September 2016 Uri terror attack and the February 2019 air strikes in Balakot, when India and Pakistan once again teetered on the brink of a conflict.

An army official explains how FTPs and the delegation of emergency financial powers are helpful. Between January 2014 and October 2016, the army concluded 20 contracts valued at Rs 400 crore. When the delegation of powers happened in 2016, the army did contracts worth Rs 11,000 crore. “It gave a big boost to this model and revived the government’s confidence, and therefore, it was allowed to go beyond the stipulated time and 40 more contacts worth Rs 4,500 crore were done through this process,” says the official.

FTPs can be explained by India’s heavy and continuing dependence on imported military hardware. The country was the world’s second-largest importer of arms in 2014-18 and accounts for 9.2 per cent of the global arms sales.

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Indian armed forces are among the five largest in the world. At $71 billion, India’s defence budget in 2019 was only a fraction of what the US ($705.4 billion) and China ($261 billion) spent, but it was still the world’s third largest. The failure to create an indigenous military-industrial complex that would keep pace with a military machine and its requirements is what leads to imports of fighter jets, tanks and submarines. While these acquisitions significantly boost combat capability, they also leave the country vulnerable to imports. “Your capability to fight anything, from a local skirmish to a long war, is ultimately dictated by your domestic production capabilities,” says Lt General Sanjay Kulkarni, former director general, Infantry.

Government campaigns for self-reliance, Make in India in 2014 and Atmanirbhar Bharat in 2020, have not been turned into roadmaps towards achieving self-sufficiency in weapons requirements.

Among the early indications that the Ladakh stand-off was going to be a prolonged one, necessitating overseas weapons purchases, was defence minister Rajnath Singh’s visit to Moscow in June. Singh was there as a state guest at the Victory Day parade on June 24. He took along a defence ministry delegation, including the defence secretary, senior bureaucrats and military officials, and spent a full day meeting key members of Russia’s military-industrial complex and discussing urgent buys from India’s largest overseas supplier.

Indigenous the way

Proponents of an indigenous defence industrial base say fast-track imports are like a foot in the door and gradually expand into larger orders, diverting limited budgetary resources. The army is close to placing a second order of 72,000 battle rifles from US arms-maker SIG Sauer, after an identical purchase last year. Indian manufacturers who have invested in developing domestic capabilities to design and develop small arms are aghast. “FTPs strike the biggest blow to Indian industry. When the armed forces go for foreign weapons, even small arms, you are effectively telling the world that your indigenous capacity is worthless. When we try and export, the first question we are asked is ‘why isn’t your own army buying your products’,” says the CEO of a private sector firm.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is worried that an order for a regiment (45 vehicles) of Russian 2SDS ‘Sprut’ light tanks for use in high-altitude terrains like Ladakh will kill its own under-the-wraps light tank project. The infantry wants more Israeli-built ‘Spike’ anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) even as the DRDO is readying an indigenous man portable anti-tank guided missile (MPATGM) for the army.

A bulk of the current fast-track buys are for ammunition. The shortfalls, army officials say, have been caused by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), whose 41 factories have failed to keep the supply lines running. The OFB is part of the defence ministry’s Department of Defence Production. A series of Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) reports have highlighted deficiencies in OFB-produced ammunition. A 2015 CAG report noted that 74 per cent of 170 types of ammunition failed to meet the ‘minimum acceptable risk level’ and only 10 per cent met the ‘war wastage reserve’ requirements. Another CAG audit for 2017-18 presented in Parliament in December 2019 said that the ordnance factories ‘had achieved production targets for only 49 per cent of the items’. A significant quantity of the army’s demand for principal ammunition items remained outstanding as on March 31, 2018, adversely impacting its operational preparedness, said the report. OFB exports, the report said, decreased by 39 per cent in 2017-18 over 2016-17.

On May 16 this year, finance minister Nirmala Sitharaman announced that the government was corporatising the OFB to improve ‘autonomy, accountability and efficiency in ordnance supplies’. Corporatisation, though, could take several years to bear fruit.

Attempts at private sector ammunition production have not taken off either, though not for want of capacity, capability or investments. In June, the army’s Master General of Ordnance Branch inexplicably pulled the plug on a 2016 plan to procure ammunition from the private sector. A brainchild of then defence minister Manohar Parrikar, the plan had aimed to bring the private sector into what was until then a government monopoly. It studied the 2016 experience where ammunition deficiencies led to fast-track buys. The goal was not only import substitution but also to create a vast domestic ammunition manufacturing capacity that the armed forces could tap into in an emergency. Deliveries would commence from six months of signing of the contract and spread over 10 years.

Fifteen private sector firms had planned to bid for eight procurement contracts for specialised tank, anti-aircraft and infantry ammunition for the army’s vast Russian-origin arsenal of battle tanks, anti-aircraft guns, multiple grenade launchers and 155 mm artillery guns (see A Lost Opportunity). Some of the private players had even established plants and scouted for international partners, anticipating orders. Five requests for proposal (RFPs) for ammunition were withdrawn while no decision has been taken on proposals for BMCS (Bi Modular Charge System) and fuses. With the collapse of long-term capability building plans, short-term weapons acquisitions will continue to remain more attractive.



What we have to understand is that just like we have different viewpoints on systems and mechanisms to be adopted so as to have a fully ready security environment, similarly even in the force , there are sections of people who have certain opinions. They do put forward their opinions to the MoD and leakout to media to increase their leverage. But this does not exactly mean that all those things will happen.

In the above case apart from ammo , special clothing, spares supports , small arms , guided bombs, UAVs and similar small item purchases will only happen.

Albeit even that shouldn't happen in ideal situation, but the things listed out here are mere fantasy. Nothing more.
Chode ye sab, statue banao....
Unions se problem nahi aapko , ek statue se itni dikkat kyu?
 
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What can we do, Every political party in India has a subsidiary trade union?
That is pretty much the representation of our society.

We will rather spend a thousand crore in relief package every year after floods in Bihar and Assam , but will not spend capital for 5 years on flood control measures. Come rains and Delhi or Mumbai, both are Venice. The communism in our society is the problem. The statue isn't. Do not single out a statue , which is necessary as a cause of failure of our system.
 
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Wonder why has our Defence budget been on a decline?
Our defence budget is good enough considering our economy.

The three forces need to sit down and re define their roles, remove all possible duplications.

No modern Armed Forces in the world will have Attack Helicopters both in Army Aviation and Airforce too. Either go the Russian way where everything flying with a pilot is under its airforce, or the American way with rotor craft fleet meant to support Army in the hands of Army only. And this is just one example.
 
Wonder why has our Defence budget been on a decline?

Budget is obviously not in decline. It's just rising much slowly instead.

2.29 trillion Indian rupees

Rs 3.37 trillion

Can't allocate a greater budget when tenders keep getting pushed. Numerous tenders should have been released this year, if not for COVID. Primarily the P-8I, MRCBF and MRFA. Indigneous programs are going on as usual, more or less. Stuff that becomes ready are being ordered, whereas stuff that's still under testing is seeing the forces receiving flak, like the Nag, ATAGS, LCH etc.
 
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Our defence budget is good enough considering our economy.
Disagree ...

The three forces need to sit down and re define their roles, remove all possible duplications.
Disagree, what you refer to as duplication is actually redundancy.

No modern Armed Forces in the world will have Attack Helicopters both in Army Aviation and Airforce too. Either go the Russian way where everything flying with a pilot is under its airforce, or the American way with rotor craft fleet meant to support Army in the hands of Army only. And this is just one example.
Sure US Army doesn't operate Attack Helicopters, but your are discounting a Gigantic fighting force which pretty much does everything the US army does and more, it's thier tip of the Spear the Marines. Both USAF and US Marines operate Attack Helicopters, Both US Navy and USAF and US marines employ fully loaded Combat Jets, like US navy, Marines and Air force uses the f35, USN and US Marines, F/A 18, USN and USAF uses f16's so on and so forth.
There are multiple platforms that even are replicated between the US National Guard and the USAF/USN.
And US military is as modern as it gets.
Just because the Army asked for a few dozen Helicopters doesn't absolve the government from not procuring the right BVR missiles, the correct standoff munitions, arty etc etc.
 
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Most of the stuff mentioned here are not panic buys, but been pending and pushed forward due to the crisis.

The only "panic buy" seems to be the Sprut, although the requirement for light tank is decades old now and the IA had a Sprut requirement since the last few years. I doubt the Sprut has been fully tested in our conditions, but benefit of the doubt can be given since they use it in similarly cold conditions, although not at such high altitudes. I do hope the purchase is for the SDM1 and not SD, but something's better than nothing. The number being ordered should be able to equip 3 infantry brigades or just 1 mechanised brigade.

Really happy with the decision to equip the LCH, and hopefully Rudra, with the Spike. They should have done it 2 years ago. DRDO should pull up their socks and get the indigenous equivalent going soon. Hope Rudra gets Mistrals as well.

The SDR sets mentioned, I think those are for the army, not the air force. The air force got their own long term deal with Israel last year, so they are covered.

No clue which aircraft the Derby ER is meant for. I suppose it's for the 32 LCAs which have been flying without BVRs right now. But I hope the MKIs are also getting them.

More SPYDERs are a good thing. It's cheap and extremely effective for what it does.
 
Can't allocate a greater budget when tenders keep getting pushed. Numerous tenders should have been released this year, if not for COVID. Primarily the P-8I, MRCBF and MRFA. Indigneous programs are going on as usual, more or less. Stuff that becomes ready are being ordered, whereas stuff that's still under testing is seeing the forces receiving flak, like the Nag, ATAGS, LCH etc.

Does it really matter?
 
Most of the stuff mentioned here are not panic buys, but been pending and pushed forward due to the crisis.

The only "panic buy" seems to be the Sprut, although the requirement for light tank is decades old now and the IA had a Sprut requirement since the last few years. I doubt the Sprut has been fully tested in our conditions, but benefit of the doubt can be given since they use it in similarly cold conditions, although not at such high altitudes. I do hope the purchase is for the SDM1 and not SD, but something's better than nothing. The number being ordered should be able to equip 3 infantry brigades or just 1 mechanised brigade.

Really happy with the decision to equip the LCH, and hopefully Rudra, with the Spike. They should have done it 2 years ago. DRDO should pull up their socks and get the indigenous equivalent going soon. Hope Rudra gets Mistrals as well.

The SDR sets mentioned, I think those are for the army, not the air force. The air force got their own long term deal with Israel last year, so they are covered.

No clue which aircraft the Derby ER is meant for. I suppose it's for the 32 LCAs which have been flying without BVRs right now. But I hope the MKIs are also getting them.

More SPYDERs are a good thing. It's cheap and extremely effective for what it does.
Why are we buying to begin with, there is no war...
 
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Disagree ...

The Railways managed less than 45% of its targeted electrification of routes in 2019-20. Among other reasons , lack of finances was a major problem. There are similar problems in almost all major infrastructure projects. Any increase in defence budget will come at their expense. Because no political party will have the guts to cut out on the loose ends.

Although I agree we need to renovate our R&D structure and allocate 10x more funding as we do now.

We need to be realistic in what we can afford.
 
Total budget in increasing but CAPX is decreasing relative to inflation. It's because sudden rate of increase in pensions.
offcourse Capex hasn't kept up, when you have to recapitalize banks and NBFC's. it seem to have been swept under the carpet now but just ILFS default is in the tune for 46 Billion Rs debt obligation. You guys continue the discussion I will catch up later, Have to work on my garage racks.
 
Just because the Army asked for a few dozen Helicopters doesn't absolve the government from not procuring the right BVR missiles, the correct standoff munitions, arty etc etc.

I actually just meant that Attack Helicopters is to be directly used by IA. And so should be procured only for IA.

IAF should keep away from wasting it's small resources on attack helicopters and transport helicopters.

Same way why do we have 3 different forces for border management, with 1 having its small air wing and rest depending on IAF ?

Remember redundancy is good. But you need to understand that if an aircraft is having 10 pieces of control surfaces, it's of no use if we invest in redundancy for 9 of those surfaces and fail to install even the primary piece of the 10th surface.

Redundancy is to be followed only when all the basic requirements are covered.