Lok Sabha passes Citizenship Bill amidst Opposition outcry

I just hope that this wasn't a pressure tactic. If it was, then there is a possibility that India caved in at the last moment to give some sort of concession in return of preventing such embarrassment.

It was UK MPs who were behind this
Friends of Pakistan group

2 days later BREXIT is happening

So UK MPs can Fcuk off
 
Look, how quickly the quality deteriorated the minute facts were presented.
The problem is that this forum consists of white collared folks. For the common man employed in the informal sector, it has not been smooth sailing, and you would probably never understand that.

Right now the lack of growth is due to a credit crunch
It is purely because of shoddy implementation of demo and GST - it has nothing to do with cyclic credit flows. And yes, high oil prices would have put an end to govt spending on social schemes and increased fiscal deficit.

Also, would Dr APJ Kalam pass the CAB? What a fantastic waste of time and resources. it is going to be another monetary and humanitarian disaster.
 
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I tried talking about the same. I know what EU Parliament (heck EU itself) is. But then people start getting emotional. They tell me "be idealistic"! "be realistic"! at the same time. I cann't quote EU Parliament's resolution against China because "We are NOT China, Islamists and Dictatorship!". I cann't quote EU Parliament's resolution against USA, because "USA is a superpower and created EU and EU parliament!". So these days I quote EU Parliaments resolution on Brazil. They are equally worthless and ineffective.

But in process I discovered something. I call it Third Cheek Ideology and the followers of that I call them Third Cheek Gang. Basically these folks believe if India is slapped on both the cheeks, India should feel ashamed that it did not have a third cheek to show. Yes, you are seeing that in action.

It stems from something deep due to recent history fissures and thus some forms of desperation and hopelessness inside the self..and people form mobs ...and others are tolerant or easily/blindly accept views from these certain mobs...because the mobs provide some (often strawman) black/white picture that relates to a set of emotions more readily.

Anyway thats a deep subject in itself...larger corrective measure in general is that the worship of politicians/politics must stop, wherever they are from. Simply because they are from a more well-to-do firangi area does not mean they stop being what inherently a politician is.

There is lot of things that operate inside India for granted (and smoothly , largely related to the particular civilisational record and heritage) that are really starting to erode and fray in western countries now for number of different reasons.

Inner confidence, trust and resilience is the hall mark of well guided nationalism. Of course learn the best things from others and adapt, test and perfect inside one's own society, but treating something (crucial) or even everything as black and white situation (inside = bad, outside = good) just creates mob culture, dissonance and regression.

Anyway it looks like this vote has been postponed indefinitely.
 
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You can't stop any one passing any resolution that's totally absurd, and EU passed a resolution for debate.
You failed to explain your own people what CAA is you think world will understand? But as I said before, it will backfire on Pakistanis , have some patience.

PS: Had you made India a hindu rahstrya and declared it a Hindu nation these kind of problems would have not rose. The seed of secularism sown is very costly when you reap it's fruit.

This govt could have done "better" job on it sure (Explaining and getting more stable consensus from more before final push). Doubt that would assuage the same ole people coming out to do same ole things, or affected their numbers and basic operation tactics.

It might also have been purposely this way to get better results long term from more silent majority in seeing what's what up close in told you so way. Everyone that matters and actually cares about this country basically gets what partition is inherently, and why CAA is part of it. If others didnt want to cleave away by way of religion (so as to then foolishly claim some religion "discrimination" for refugees they send to another country is bad), then that was their decision to make or revert now...not ours.

It shouldn't really matter much how and when it inevitably "backfires" on Pakistan...we have to stop caring about that...then only others will pay less attention to them too. Otherwise they simply always exist in current form as some easy foil for anyone else to use to "get" to us in someway.

A) It's an army with a country, their opinion and credibility among democracies on democratic process is or should be zilch till they actually function as an actual democracy for a generation or two.

B) The effects are telling, right on this given subject....no restitution or apology has been done for their actions in 1971 (governing co-religionists even) even this downstream in time...not even release of their own commission report. You expect such a state-apparatus (if the lack of law and order argument is to be made for the initial partition nightmare itself) to take terrorism and underhandedness regarding its military structure, narrative and paranoia seriously?

These two things are what we should say first thing and simply divert rest of the noise to some brick wall when it tries to go the equivalency way regardless (that is simply a filter for lost cause which needs no more spending of time and energy).

Instead we spend too much time and effort and energy on frivolous (even sustained) responses many times. Have some larger trust the aam admi of other countries too, not their elitists (who want chaos complexity noise to make hypocrisy hay in). Simple and effective messaging is best.
 
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The problem is that this forum consists of white collared folks. For the common man employed in the informal sector, it has not been smooth sailing, and you would probably never understand that.

That's what I'm saying. The common man in the informal sector has always been in a rut for the last 7 decades. When something is done to protect him, it is criticised, as has been happening since the last 6 years.

The condition of the common man is better now than it was before Modi.

It is purely because of shoddy implementation of demo and GST - it has nothing to do with cyclic credit flows.

Complete opposite of what all economists are saying.

Anti-Modi Critics: Demo and GST are the cause of slowdown.
Highly educated economists: Credit crunch in the shadow banking sector is the cause.

General public: We are going by whether we support Modi or are against Modi.

And yes, high oil prices would have put an end to govt spending on social schemes and increased fiscal deficit.

This govt has already transferred the prices of oil onto the public, there are no more subsidies. So govt spending is not affected by rising oil prices. What will be affected is inflation, which has been in control ever since Modi came into the picture.

Also, would Dr APJ Kalam pass the CAB? What a fantastic waste of time and resources. it is going to be another monetary and humanitarian disaster.

Yes, Kalam would rise up from the grave and sign it himself. Anybody who doesn't support CAB is basically a Hinduphobe or completely and utterly ignorant. People simply do not understand what CAB is about. It has nothing to do with Muslims of India. It only has to do with non-Muslims in 3 countries. So, in effect, Indian Muslims do not even have any concern here, it doesn't affect them in any way. CAB is not an anti-Muslim law.

Also NRC and NPR have nothing to do with CAB either.

All the Muslims have successfully proven is that they are illiterate and that they are easily controlled by anti-Indian agents.

The fact is by abolishing Triple Talaq alone, Modi has done more to the Muslim community than all other govts combined in the last 70 years. This is something the Muslims themselves do not realise, until they actually start seeing the benefit.

Funny that even Kapil Sibal has now changed his opinion.

And no, giving citizenship to people doesn't waste govt money and is most definitely not a humanitarian disaster. You are the one who doesn't understand the plight of the common people.
 
The BJP and Indian democracy

How can it be ‘undemocratic’ for an elected government to fulfil its poll promises ?

Updated: Jan 28, 2020 19:45 IST
By Rahul Sagar.
modi-rally-caa-nrc_ed389174-41c9-11ea-b306-d18e31211930.jpg
Whether BJP’s Hindu nationalist policies are an expression of democracy or a threat to it hinges on methods it employs (Burhaan Kinu/HT PHOTO)

Since its victory in May 2019, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government has set about vigorously enacting long-articulated Hindu nationalist policies. This development has led to the charge that the BJP is “undermining” India’s democracy. The allegation raises an important question: How can it be “undemocratic” for a democratically- elected government to fulfil the promises in its manifesto?

A political system is democratic when the government is chosen by, and its policies broadly reflect, the will of the majority (or at least the plurality) of voters. Since governments can act inconsiderately, democracies advisedly establish checks and balances. Countervailing power is found in civil society where interest groups, including media organisations, scrutinise government policy and shape public opinion. Because public opinion can be ambiguous or factionalised, political power is also constrained through institutional design. Thus, the separation of powers introduces judicial review, which compels decision-makers to attend to legal procedures and precedents. At the same time, federalism disperses political power thematically and geographically, obliging decision-makers to secure backing across broad swathes of the country.

A democratic system of the kind outlined above is intended to frustrate radical change. But it is not meant to prevent change altogether. Checks and balances are designed to counter “temporary delusions” — that is, decisions that are hasty or lack deep and wide support. Checks and balances are not, however, meant to thwart the sustained will of the voters. How could they when popular sovereignty demands that citizens be the final arbiter? Thus, the threshold may be high, but once a sizable number have set their mind to something, there is nothing that they cannot eventually and lawfully obtain. Through advocacy, elections, appointments, and laws, citizens can gradually make political institutions abide by their will. Not even the courts can hold out indefinitely, because judges who reason differently from their predecessors will conclude differently. This is why in the United States, for example, abortion rights expand and contract as rival ideologies mobilise and enter high office.

Now consider what happens when this slow-motion revolution unfolds. As the old order is eased out by the new — by amendment rather than by gunfire — the scene grows increasingly unpleasant. As institutions adopt new stances, the cry goes out that the “pillars of democracy” are being “subverted”. Denunciations are plentiful. The Press is “bought”, the courts are “cowed”, the police and military are ‘politicised’, the people are “misled”, business people are “servile”, universities are “decimated”, civil servants are “lackeys”, regulators are “corrupted”, and so on. All is woe, apparently.

In these disorienting circumstances, there are two criteria by which observers can ascertain whether the government is acting democratically or not.

The first is whether the government continues to receive electoral support. A democratic system is founded on elections because this procedure draws a line under substantive disagreements that would otherwise stretch on interminably. A single election result may be ambiguous, but broad trajectories are unmistakable. To the case in point: It takes a leap of imagination to believe that those who vote for the BJP, a number that has grown steadily over the past three decades, are unaware of or even opposed to its manifesto. Conversely, there is reason to doubt that political formations that perform poorly at the ballot box are “true” representatives of the people.

A constitutional democracy is about more than elections, however. Norms matter greatly, especially the notion of fair play. Thus, for example, selective enforcement of the law, which sees rioters but not vigilantes punished, is objectionable. The still graver danger is that, frustrated by opponents willing to use every trick in the book to prevent it from carrying out its mandate, the government uses threatening language and the coercive power at its disposal to intimidate those who refuse it due quarter. Such heavy-handedness makes it easier for opponents to claim that force is being used because the government’s policies do not actually enjoy widespread support.

Thus, whether the BJP’s Hindu nationalist policies are an expression of democracy or a threat to it, hinges on the methods it employs to see them through. It would do well to remember that patience is the virtue that sees democratic revolutions though. The ballot box defeats critics in the way that legal notices cannot.

Democracy does not mean, however, that the BJP is obliged to follow the diktats of its defeated rivals. A duly- elected government behaves democratically when it acts through and under the law. The BJP’s critics might examine their own credentials on this count, seeing as the Preamble they proudly recite was amended during the Emergency.

What has been said so far will be countered in two ways. One complaint will be that the BJP’s policies are undemocratic because its parliamentary majority is based on a plurality of rather than a majority of voters. It is interesting that this “grave flaw” in India’s electoral system never troubled Left-Liberals when the Congress was in office. Perhaps it should be addressed by requiring political parties to obtain a minimum percentage of votes in two or more states before they can compete in national elections. This would make the “national will” clearer.

The more sombre complaint is that abiding by constitutional procedures will not make Hindu nationalist policies democratic: Hindu nationalism is intrinsically undemocratic because its content is exclusionary and inegalitarian. Whether this claim is correct will be the subject of a subsequent essay.

Rahul Sagar is Global Network associate professor of Political Science at New York University, Abu Dhabi. The views expressed are personal.

The BJP and Indian democracy
 
The BJP’s critics might examine their own credentials on this count, seeing as the Preamble they proudly recite was amended during the Emergency.
Did it ever occur to anyone that the word "Secular" does not mean what they think it does. When asked what is opposite of secular, people say "having a state religion" or theocracy. This in itself is false at so many levels. Secular simply means "devoid of religion". Simple. Just that.

Tomatoes are secular.
Quran is NOT secular.

And what else is NOT secular? India Law and constitution. The very fact that Indian constitution has laws that have roots in religion and laws that treat people on based on their religion makes it NON secular. Things like personal laws. Things like inheritance laws. Things like who governs and manages places of worship. Indian constitution IS NOT secular. Its about time we remove the false advertising.
 
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More drama in Delhi, firing openly in front of police. Super power, only one cheek, real hard hitting diplomatic power's capital is reduced to joke.

Criminals in Karachi have more fear than this, wait for left to give colorful headlines, term it as massacre of students, resistance and what not.

While only one cheek enlightened tell us how Brazil, USA and China have this problem and we should stop caring, people responsible to stop this are busy campaigning.

Don't take public for fool, people may hate Kejriwal and Shaheen Bag but your inaction, indifference to protect them is kept in mind too. Open calls for break up from capital, daily one institution or other is abused, army is called rapist and killer, Hon'ble court and Hon'ble judges are abused, mocked but no action is taken.

Whatever you are listening in echo chambers of "Delhi election has turned" may not be so real on ground and resentment against your inaction may end up badly even electorally.
 
Well Gunman you single handedly revived failing and badly exposed Islamist Shaheen Baug and may have finished whatever little chance BJP could have had.

Can't blame you much though, when anti India slogans are raised almost daily and no action is taken youth may take matter in its own hand. Your youth is finished, may spend most of it in jail, thank the chanakya for it.
 
It might also have been purposely this way to get better results long term from more silent majority in seeing what's what up close in told you so way. Everyone that matters and actually cares about this country basically gets what partition is inherently, and why CAA is part of it. If others didnt want to cleave away by way of religion (so as to then foolishly claim some religion "discrimination" for refugees they send to another country is bad), then that was their decision to make or revert now...not ours.

Yes even I believe so that, to expose people and give a clear picture what is the hidden agenda of these people they have thrown it on people to make a decision.

What we came to know about the Shaheen Bagh protest is, that region Okhla, Old Delhi, Nizamuddin, Seelampuri area has been settled by Bangladeshi muslims. Now they are out in open.

After Delhi started electoral politics, thanks to BJP for ruining delhi, when congress came they started settling the Bangladeshi at the outerskirts of Delhi for demographic change and create a vote bank, now they are all living in unauthorized colonies there.

Shaheen Bagh has a solution, remove CM seat and electoral politics from Delhi make it a UT.
It shouldn't really matter much how and when it inevitably "backfires" on Pakistan...we have to stop caring about that...then only others will pay less attention to them too. Otherwise they simply always exist in current form as some easy foil for anyone else to use to "get" to us in someway.

A) It's an army with a country, their opinion and credibility among democracies on democratic process is or should be zilch till they actually function as an actual democracy for a generation or two.

B) The effects are telling, right on this given subject....no restitution or apology has been done for their actions in 1971 (governing co-religionists even) even this downstream in time...not even release of their own commission report. You expect such a state-apparatus (if the lack of law and order argument is to be made for the initial partition nightmare itself) to take terrorism and underhandedness regarding its military structure, narrative and paranoia seriously?

What I meant by backfiring is, reducing the Pakistani influence on international forum. On every internal issue related to Muslims or Dalits, expect it from Pakistanis that they will try to create some sort of sensation in NY times, or Senate or UN or EU parliament. Where ever is possible.

For your point B) why would Pakistani apologize? They are authoritarian country , kind of Hybrid one. They are expecting an apology from Indian for Breaking their country and that should sound funny. India has remained very introvert when it comes to offensive diplomacy to secure future interest or nullify Pakistani influence.

One reason is for this is the repurcussion by your own fellows in India who speak and favour Pakistan. Now for Indians it's visually proved.
 
Immature behavior of BJP politicians. There wasn't any need to legitimize "Gadarro ko goli maro". You never know how much one can get influenced, specially when other side is fanning supremacist, bigoted and anti national emotions. Classic recipe for lone wolf attacks.

Strict gun laws made this not a big incident otherwise imagine if he had access to Christchurch attack type armoury. A worldwide outrage and possible rollback of CAA/NRC under pressure.
 
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Immature behavior of BJP politicians. There wasn't any need to legitimize "Gadarro ko goli maro". You never know how much one can get influenced, specially when other side is fanning supremacist, bigoted and anti national emotions. Classic recipe for lone wolf attacks.
There is no legitimization of any slogan, this particular slogan is very normal, common and old, treason is punishable by death even by law and similar rules exists all over the world and in religion. Nobody get influenced by slogans like these, people are frustrated when the only thing on TV and Social Media is these swines openly speaking against India without any fear. To compensate for impotence of Modern day Chanakya some impulsive kid went this far.

Its been few weeks now I am telling you that your kids are being poisoned. BJP use to take bold decisions even if it is not electorally wise but they use to do what's need to be done but after Shah ji there is no limit to their fall, they will sell your kid if it get them more votes.

I won't be surprised if things go bad in coming days, lefty ecosystem is pretty strong to spread anarchy and thanks to Shahji there is constant supply of useful idiots for them. A terrorist attack can also be arranged with bipartisan support, Congress has direct links, some strings can be pulled and BJP can look other way, as past incident the electoral return on this investment is pretty good.
 
Immature behavior of BJP politicians. There wasn't any need to legitimize "Gadarro ko goli maro". You never know how much one can get influenced, specially when other side is fanning supremacist, bigoted and anti national emotions. Classic recipe for lone wolf attacks.

Strict gun laws made this not a big incident otherwise imagine if he had access to Christchurch attack type armoury. A worldwide outrage and possible rollback of CAA/NRC under pressure.

I expect this would become a new norm, because it's a norm in west bengal. There they have been throwing grenades. Where ever left is present, expect such kind of events. Delhi is seeing West bengal type politics.
 
Bengal: TMC leader opens fire at anti-CAA protesters, 2 killed

According to locals, a TMC leader opened fire at anti-CAA protesters in West Bengal's Murshidabad, killing at least two people.


Murshidabad
January 29, 2020 18:10 IST
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Anti-CAA protesters clash among themselves in Bengal's Murshidabad, 1 dead (ANI)

Trinamool Congress leader opened fire at an anti-CAA protest in West Bengal's Murshidabad on Wednesday leaving at least two dead, the locals have said.

According to locals, TMC's Jalangi Block President Tahiruddin opened fire at the protesters, killing two people and injuring several others.

The two deceased have been identified as Maqbool Sheikh and Anirudh Biswas.

Shahrul Biswas, son of one of the deceased, said that the police did not do anything to stop the TMC leader.

"My father reads the namaz every day in the mosque. After that, he locks the mosque and comes back. Today, a strike was called in protest against CAA-NRC. While he was returning today, few Maruti vans came and the Jalangi Block President of TMC Tahiruddin started firing randomly. The police were present there but did not do anything to stop it. He was declared dead on bringing to the hospital," Shahrul Biswas told India Today TV.

Another local resident, Hira Khatun, whose brother was injured in the incident said, "My brother was shot in the knees. We are very poor and are not involved in any party politics. TMC workers shot my brother and the Jalangi Block President from TMC helped them."

Local TMC MP Abu Taher denied that the party was involved in the clash and alleged that the violence was by Congress and CPI(M) supporters. "I have requested the police to look into the incident. The culprits should be immediately arrested," he said.

"I heard that the ones who had called for the strike opened fire on the people when they asked for the strike to be lifted. It is completely a lie that any TMC member fired anyone," Jalangi MLA Abdul Razzak said.

According to the police, a scuffle broke out between the local TMC leaders and residents' forum 'Nagarik Mancha', which was observing a shutdown in the area against the amended citizenship act and the proposed country-wide NRC.

The residents' forum was asked to withdraw the shutdown and the situation turned violent as both sides came to blows and hurled bombs at each other. Several two-wheelers and cars were damaged and set on fire during the clash.


The scuffle ended when police intervened and disbursed the crowd. The injured have been rushed to Murshidabad Medical College and Hospital here, the police said.

The Muslim-majority district had witnessed violence and arson during the anti-CAA protests across the state in December last year.

Congress MP from Murshidabad Adhir Ranjan Chaudhary also said that the protesters were attacked by the workers of the ruling Trinamool Congress party.

"Locals of Sahebnagar were protesting peacefully against the Citizenship Amendment Act. Suddenly, TMC goons attacked them with bombs," Adhir Ranjan Chaudhary told ANI.

(With inputs from Manogya Loiwal and news agencies)

Bengal: TMC leader opens fire at anti-CAA protesters, 2 killed