Leh is for emergency landings, not for sustained operations.
Dunno why you brought this up though. The most important areas will be avionics, availability, costs and ToT.
Airbus to offer Eurofighter for MMRCA 2.0
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Leh is for emergency landings, not for sustained operations.
Dunno why you brought this up though. The most important areas will be avionics, availability, costs and ToT.
India needs at least two or three more privately owned assembly lines to get squadron numbers up. If HAL manufactures 12-16 AC/year, more than half of those will have niggles and will not be certified to fly. With HAL beginning to outsource work, QC will never be in control. A big manufacturing disaster.
Would prefer them tested again Many of the companies are coming newer tech than a decade ago. Maybe ask each one to offer higher performance engines.
The biggest drawbacks for Rafale's competitors.
F-16 E/F - Single engine.
Gripen E/F - Single engine.
Mig-35 - Russian.
F/A-18 - With the Advanced Super Hornet cancelled, the SH Block 3 is not adequate.
Typhoon - Expensive. Modernisation has not kept pace.
Except for Typhoon and Gripen, all the other jets are too old for us to bother with. While the Gripen has kept pace with modernisation, hopefully the new export orders for Typhoon will force them to modernise quickly. At least both aircraft come with Meteor.
F-16 E/F - Single engine.
Gripen E/F - Single engine.
Mig-35 - Russian.
F/A-18 - With the Advanced Super Hornet cancelled, the SH Block 3 is not adequate.
Typhoon - Expensive. Modernisation has not kept pace.
Except for Typhoon and Gripen, all the other jets are too old for us to bother with. While the Gripen has kept pace with modernisation, hopefully the new export orders for Typhoon will force them to modernise quickly. At least both aircraft come with Meteor.
I doubt test flights will happen again.
It's time taking .. can't delay for ever.
Most probably L1 will be asked to demonstrate capabilities might be even in OEM country itself.
Browne was not the guy who inked the first deal for 36... so... He can stay in his farm house with not collateral effect on a next rafale deal.
We will buy more Tejas once Modiji is back in power.
More than Modiji, I want Parikar back in defence ministry. he was the one who included the Kaveri consultation clause within the Rafale deal.
and more rafale. in time, in another few years. in my opinion we should not buy the same rafale with the same airframe and package any more. just periodically update the avionics and software on the ones that we are buying. the F4.2 version we should go for for our next purchase.
rest is just fluff sent out by various parties to stay in relevance considering the time indian gov takes to buy something like this.
just fluff. read, enjoy, ignore.
More than Modiji, I want Parikar back in defence ministry. he was the one who included the Kaveri consultation clause within the Rafale deal.
and more rafale. in time, in another few years. in my opinion we should not buy the same rafale with the same airframe and package any more. just periodically update the avionics and software on the ones that we are buying. the F4.2 version we should go for for our next purchase.
rest is just fluff sent out by various parties to stay in relevance considering the time indian gov takes to buy something like this.
just fluff. read, enjoy, ignore.
China, not pakistan. we don't need US tech for Pakistan. Russia and France and Israel cover our asses very well wrt pak.
The Rafale purchased by India, F3R block, are fully upgradable to F4.2.
It's only the planes made before than can only be upgraded to F4.1
So, don't worry. Just be happy.
mate - said the aircraft manufacturers are enough for Pakistan.. and if they do the job for us just to get th orders, we can take care of china ourselves
but I get your point. someday soon, our local tech should be enough for Pakistan is my dream - LCAs and Arjuns
All Rafale can be upgraded to F4.2, but France decided to do not upgrade the existing one and to produce the next tranches and the 28 Rafale remaining of the current tranche at the F4.2 standard.
it means:
- that the new harware will be available in 2021 (production of the first Rafale of the remaining in current tranche)
- That the software needed for F 4.1 will be available in 2023 (Begining of F4 standard as described in official statement)
- And the software for F4.2 will be available in 2025 ( Full F4 standard as described in official statement)
And that is unfortunate; the defence policy and strategic roadmap should never be people centric but based on processes setup. if tomorrow a politician or a bureaucrat is run over by a bus, it should not jeopardize the strategic roadmap for a country.
same as above, I would much rather have people who create processes than mavericks without whom the system fails in delivering.
Stage set for MMRCA 2.0 with French aerospace vendor Dassault's Rafale
French aerospace vendor Dassault says it will offer the Rafale in a global tender floated by the Indian Air Force (IAF) on April 6, inviting vendor interest for supplying 110 fighter aircraft.
Dassault’s representative in India, Posina Venkata Rao, confirmed to Business Standard on Wednesday that the Rafale would be fielded in the contest.That sets the stage for a re-run of the failed “medium multi-role combat aircraft” (MMRCA) procurement that the IAF conceived in 2000, officially tendered in 2007 and eventually abandoned in 2015.
With Airbus Defence and Space confirming on Tuesday that Eurofighter GmbH would offer the Typhoon fighter to India the IAF will have to choose from the same six vendors that participated in the aborted MMRCA tender.
The other four contenders in that procurement – Swedish company, Saab, Russia Aircraft Corporation (RAC), and US vendors Lockheed Martin and Boeing have already signalled their eagerness to participate in the new tender.
If no other fighter manufacturer makes a surprise appearance before July 6, the date by which vendors must respond to an IAF request for information (RFI), the IAF will find itself conducting what aerospace industry experts disparage as MMRCA 2.0.
Aviation analysts wonder how the IAF will go about flight-testing six aircraft, when it had already announced in 2011, at the conclusion of the MMRCA testing process, that only two – the Rafale and Typhoon – met its requirements. The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, F-16 Super Viper, Gripen C/D and MiG-35 were all rejected as inadequate.
After selecting the Rafale, negotiations broke down over its price and “Make in India” terms. Eventually, the government bought 36 Rafales, in fly-away condition, to alleviate the IAF’s dire shortfall of fighter aircraft.
“Clearly, the IAF will have to scale down performance expectations this time. Else it might be left with the same choices that it found unacceptable in the MMRCA tender”, says one aviation expert.
Of the six vendors in MMRCA 2.0, Boeing is offering the same aircraft, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, which it intends to build in India with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Mahindra. Like Dassault, Boeing will leverage its offer with another simultaneous tender for 57 carrier-borne fighters for the Indian Navy (IN).
Lockheed Martin has offered the F-16 Block 70, a cosmetic improvement over the F-16 Super Viper it offered the last time. It has tied up with the Tata Group to shift the F-16 production line to India, provided it wins the contract. However, IAF pilots see the Block 70 as little better than the Super Viper, and remain wary of buying an aircraft so closely associated with the Pakistan Air Force.
RAC plans to offer the same MiG-35 as it did for the MMRCA contest, with no indication yet about whom it will partner to build the fighter in India. While it remains a dark horse in this race, analysts point out that both the IAF and IN already fly the MiG-29 – the baseline fighter for the MiG-35.
Only Saab is offering a significantly improved fighter, the new Gripen E. In contrast to the Gripen C/D that Saab offered in the MMRCA contest, the Gripen E has a more powerful General Electric F-414 engine, newer avionics, more payload and greater range. If it meets the IAF’s performance requirements, this single-engine aircraft (like the F-16, but without that fighter’s drawbacks) will have the advantage of being priced more cheaply than the larger, twin-engine F-18, MiG-35, Typhoon and Rafale.
Industry estimates are that single engine fighters would cost about $80-85 million each, while twin-engine fighters would be priced closer to $120 million apiece. Given the Defence Procurement Procedure’s emphasis on cost, that could be a winning advantage for a single-engine fighter that meets the IAF’s performance requirements.
The RFI of April 6 called for vendor proposals for supplying 110 fighters, of which 75 per cent (82-83 fighters) would be single-seat aircrafts, while the remaining 27-28 fighters would be twin-seat variants.
The emphasis was on “Make in India”, with no more than 15 per cent of the order – or 16-17 fighters – to be supplied fully built. The RFI specified that a “Strategic Partner/ Indian Production Agency” must build the remaining 93-94 aircraft in India.
That leaves the door open for both private firms and HAL to be the Indian partner.
Delivery of the 16-17 ready built fighters must begin within 36 months, and be completed within 60 months of the contract. The fighters built in India must start being delivered 5 years from the contract and delivery completed 12 years from the signing date.
In the RFI, the IAF has stated it wants a “day and night capable, all weather, multi-role combat aircraft.” It must outperform enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat, strike ground targets, and do reconnaissance, electronic warfare and air-to-air refuelling. It must also be capable of maritime strike, i.e. destroying targets far out to sea.
Based on the RFI responses, the IAF will issue vendors a formal tender. That will be followed by a process – which in the past has lasted years – of technical and flying trials, cost evaluation and then price negotiation with the winning vendor.
French aerospace vendor Dassault says it will offer the Rafale in a global tender floated by the Indian Air Force (IAF) on April 6, inviting vendor interest for supplying 110 fighter aircraft.
Dassault’s representative in India, Posina Venkata Rao, confirmed to Business Standard on Wednesday that the Rafale would be fielded in the contest.That sets the stage for a re-run of the failed “medium multi-role combat aircraft” (MMRCA) procurement that the IAF conceived in 2000, officially tendered in 2007 and eventually abandoned in 2015.
With Airbus Defence and Space confirming on Tuesday that Eurofighter GmbH would offer the Typhoon fighter to India the IAF will have to choose from the same six vendors that participated in the aborted MMRCA tender.
The other four contenders in that procurement – Swedish company, Saab, Russia Aircraft Corporation (RAC), and US vendors Lockheed Martin and Boeing have already signalled their eagerness to participate in the new tender.
If no other fighter manufacturer makes a surprise appearance before July 6, the date by which vendors must respond to an IAF request for information (RFI), the IAF will find itself conducting what aerospace industry experts disparage as MMRCA 2.0.
Aviation analysts wonder how the IAF will go about flight-testing six aircraft, when it had already announced in 2011, at the conclusion of the MMRCA testing process, that only two – the Rafale and Typhoon – met its requirements. The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, F-16 Super Viper, Gripen C/D and MiG-35 were all rejected as inadequate.
After selecting the Rafale, negotiations broke down over its price and “Make in India” terms. Eventually, the government bought 36 Rafales, in fly-away condition, to alleviate the IAF’s dire shortfall of fighter aircraft.
“Clearly, the IAF will have to scale down performance expectations this time. Else it might be left with the same choices that it found unacceptable in the MMRCA tender”, says one aviation expert.
Of the six vendors in MMRCA 2.0, Boeing is offering the same aircraft, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, which it intends to build in India with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Mahindra. Like Dassault, Boeing will leverage its offer with another simultaneous tender for 57 carrier-borne fighters for the Indian Navy (IN).
Lockheed Martin has offered the F-16 Block 70, a cosmetic improvement over the F-16 Super Viper it offered the last time. It has tied up with the Tata Group to shift the F-16 production line to India, provided it wins the contract. However, IAF pilots see the Block 70 as little better than the Super Viper, and remain wary of buying an aircraft so closely associated with the Pakistan Air Force.
RAC plans to offer the same MiG-35 as it did for the MMRCA contest, with no indication yet about whom it will partner to build the fighter in India. While it remains a dark horse in this race, analysts point out that both the IAF and IN already fly the MiG-29 – the baseline fighter for the MiG-35.
Only Saab is offering a significantly improved fighter, the new Gripen E. In contrast to the Gripen C/D that Saab offered in the MMRCA contest, the Gripen E has a more powerful General Electric F-414 engine, newer avionics, more payload and greater range. If it meets the IAF’s performance requirements, this single-engine aircraft (like the F-16, but without that fighter’s drawbacks) will have the advantage of being priced more cheaply than the larger, twin-engine F-18, MiG-35, Typhoon and Rafale.
Industry estimates are that single engine fighters would cost about $80-85 million each, while twin-engine fighters would be priced closer to $120 million apiece. Given the Defence Procurement Procedure’s emphasis on cost, that could be a winning advantage for a single-engine fighter that meets the IAF’s performance requirements.
The RFI of April 6 called for vendor proposals for supplying 110 fighters, of which 75 per cent (82-83 fighters) would be single-seat aircrafts, while the remaining 27-28 fighters would be twin-seat variants.
The emphasis was on “Make in India”, with no more than 15 per cent of the order – or 16-17 fighters – to be supplied fully built. The RFI specified that a “Strategic Partner/ Indian Production Agency” must build the remaining 93-94 aircraft in India.
That leaves the door open for both private firms and HAL to be the Indian partner.
Delivery of the 16-17 ready built fighters must begin within 36 months, and be completed within 60 months of the contract. The fighters built in India must start being delivered 5 years from the contract and delivery completed 12 years from the signing date.
In the RFI, the IAF has stated it wants a “day and night capable, all weather, multi-role combat aircraft.” It must outperform enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat, strike ground targets, and do reconnaissance, electronic warfare and air-to-air refuelling. It must also be capable of maritime strike, i.e. destroying targets far out to sea.
Based on the RFI responses, the IAF will issue vendors a formal tender. That will be followed by a process – which in the past has lasted years – of technical and flying trials, cost evaluation and then price negotiation with the winning vendor.
mate - said the aircraft manufacturers are enough for Pakistan.. and if they do the job for us just to get th orders, we can take care of china ourselves
but I get your point. someday soon, our local tech should be enough for Pakistan is my dream - LCAs and Arjuns
My dear fellow, our real adversary is China. we have enmity with pakistan. China controls the power of pakistan armed forces and will control it totally in the future. by giving certain platforms and certain weapons, they give pakistan the ability to hurt india. that keeps indian assets engaged with pakistan and make sure that they will be there for pakistan. away from china. this is how they control the power play between the subcontinent even without being involved in it. if we can negotiate with the chinese to be able to influence this power play somehow, we will solve the problem of pakistan. for ever. without even engaging pakistan. withour a war. only thing is, we have to actively make sure that pakistan remains a piss poor country filled with terrorists and terrorist supporters. dependent on chinese forever.
technology wise speaking, Rafales are not really needed for western border, whatever we have is still good enough for PAF. but we don't want to see any losses, so we have put a rafale squadron for deep strikes into pak and just in case for air superiority too. we can absolutely do this with our present inventory as well, just that we might have losses. correctly so, why have people dead when we can do the job comfortably with everybody back home alive and unhurt? but we are still years ahead of what they have. just take the nukes out and imagine an indo-pak war today, it will be like a joke, only not funny.
china brodar, china is the key to the subcontinent arms balance. russia is still on our side and is the second biggest player in the arms scenario in south asia. its a good thing that russia is on our side. a few years back under UPA govt, and a few other reasons, things were starting to change and russia threatened us with being not india's friend. we took the hint and engaged them again on the same level.
Not exactly. The contenders are the same, but the process has changed. HAL is no longer the lead integrator. HAL can become the lead integrator only if Boeing wins.
The standards will likely be even higher.
More realistic now. 12 years for all 110 jets, with the first jet out of the Indian line out in the 5th year. So a 7-year delivery cycle for the 93-94 jets.
Yeah, good luck for any fighter except the Rafale and Gripen achieving all these.
With the exception of Gripen's single engine, it has a good chance now. It only has to meet minimum QRs to be shortlisted, which it may not meet due to being single-engined.
This will be the big question.
politicians in the past have ruled india. like a mf'ing king or a queen. the ruler mindset has not gone from their minds. you will still see this mindset in the piss filled parts of india like bengal, up, bihar, chattisgarh. and india is slow to change when the change comes from the bottom of the pyramid. but changes flow faster when the top starts to shove things down the chain from the top. hence Modiji is quite important for national security. *censored* politics.
Parikar saab was the DM for a such a short time and the first person to sort out the post UPA II defence mess. including the OROP issue. he showed excellent work. fast tracked scorpion production, arihant testing, literally shoved the Tejas down Arup Raha's throat. Literally. Arup Raha was forced to go public with the statement that Tejas is enough for IAF. he had never said that before. including tipnis all have said, good plane, excellent plane whatever...nobody said that this is what we can work with. this is enough for our needs. raha was the first IAF chief who said that. under Parikar saheb. and this is when ? when IAF was screaming to anybody who would listen "we want 125 rafales". what did they get ? 2 sqdns of rafale and rest a big order of Tejas and the Mk1. like how it makes sense when you are within a budget. not oil sleek.
see what happened ? BJP wanted him back as Goa's CM. After barely a year, he went back to his native Goa as the CM. Internal politics took priority over national defence and who took the decision ? BJP, the ruling party. what will you say ? there is nothing to say..
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