Why do Pakistani defence experts not frequent Indian defence forums ?

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Kshithij Sharma

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Dec 4, 2017
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@Aravind What you are not able to, and perhaps will never be able to fathom, is what the member @bonobashi has been driving at, at the core. After reading pages of frankly low level and unexpectedly stupid rants, and I am sorry to use that word, from your side, being ably baited by @bonobashi all along, I felt that I have to intervene to tell you to cut it out.

There is a lovely book, published in 1943 or thereabouts, banned in India, known as the "The Great Danger to Hindus" written by an Obscure Hindu.

It starts with something like this (if I recall correctly, I read it at 8 years of age):

"If you are with us, then with you,
If you are not with us, then without you,
If you are against us, then inspite of you..."

It is an exhaustive write up against Gandhi and Nehru and against their selling off the nation along the lines of religion. Mind you, if you read the history, it was Gandhi and Nehru who brought religion primarily into the Indian freedom struggle. Veer Savarkar, was a later party to join the bandwagon when he saw that Gandhi was able to gain traction through Khilafat Movement. Even Veer Savarkar, in his works in 1909, wherein he appropriated the term First War of Independence from Karl Marx, never wrote anything but Hindu-Muslim amity.

Why do you think he wrote of that in 1909? Do you think that the person who RSS worships, was a fool? Or why do you think that inspite of the claims to the contrary, BJP has never ever undertaken any of the overt steps it has promised in name of Hindutva? Why does Modi, till date, only broach religion just before the voting day?

You need to ponder over that. You see, millions of idiots have fallen prey to this political posturing for votes. If you read the Indian history, India was always a loose collective of small states and never an unified entity, just like China. But the main difference cropped up that there was always a central authority in China which kept enforcing it's writ intermittently throughout history whereas in India, no central authority really existed as all were too busy working on diving themselves rather than uniting as a nation. It continues till date.

A nation is an idea, a collection of beliefs. Yet we find that the same is being undermined on a daily basis. I think it is time that educated people like you, should be able to grasp that. You need to work daily to defend an idea, from threats both within and external.

Now, just a few days back, I was educated on how my lack of service maturity and exposure (presumed by the person) In operational field may have not allowed me insights (apparently we are fools and third parties on defence forum and social media know better than us). While that may hold true for I do not claim to know everything (I hardly talk of aircrafts and their nuts and bolts, like members here can tell you what screwdriver will go with which screw), one thing I am definitely sure of is that we fought, when we had to, for an idea that is India.

Maybe you need to take a relook on how we as responsible citizens of this nation, can achieve that objective here?
So, Nehru brought in religion? Can you give me source? The way I see it, he was only a dummy installed by British, Before Cripps mission in 1942, Nehru was already decided to be PM and even appointed as president of congress session unilaterally by Gandhi against the wishes of many others. Nehru never had supporters. Nehru even let muslims stay back despite voting for partition by 90%. You say he brought in religion? Can you give me evidence or source?

Also, what according to you is the objective of "this" nation's existence? What is the responsibility of every citizen? What is the punishment for those who don't follow their duties? Who will inflict the punishment?
 

bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
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Thank you for the kind words. In the context of the present forum, I wish everyone to know on your side of the border that insanity has not taken a complete hold on this side, despite discouraging indications. There is hope yet. :D
OF COURSE there is. saiyan0321, for instance; Rampage for another. There are dozens. None as possessed of flinty integrity as you, but in their own ways, steadfast, and worthy of respect.
 

bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
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So, Nehru brought in religion? Can you give me source? The way I see it, he was only a dummy installed by British,
The British had nothing to do with it. They didn't interfere with the politics of the Congress; they did, in the case of the Muslim League, and from the time of Linlithgow, built it up to an artificial parity.

I am not a Nehru supporter, but your flailing around in the history of the immediate prelude to independence is a pathetic exhibition.

Before Cripps mission in 1942, Nehru was already decided to be PM and even appointed as president of congress session unilaterally by Gandhi against the wishes of many others.
Before the Cabinet Mission of 1946, there was no solution, so what was Nehru to be PM over? There was not even agreement for independence; there was discussion only of Dominion status.

If the 'many others' did not like Gandhi's decision what prevented them from opposing him and appointing their own President? Their desire to give you some completely unfounded statements at your convenience?

Nehru never had supporters.
Of course he didn't. He depended entirely on Electronic Voting Machines to bring in victory in a series of elections.

Nehru even let muslims stay back despite voting for partition by 90%. You say he brought in religion? Can you give me evidence or source?
What voting for partition? Are you a complete idiot? There was no vote for partition.

Also, what according to you is the objective of "this" nation's existence?

Freedom from foreign rule, in a democratic republic, with safeguards for the weaker sections.

What is the responsibility of every citizen?
OBEY THE CONSTITUTION. FOLLOW THE LAW.

What is the punishment for those who don't follow their duties?
The Indian Penal Code. The Criminal Procedure Code. The body of statutes.

Who will inflict the punishment?
Appointed courts of law.
 

bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
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saiyan yesss. But am hesitant to reach out there ... to him.

And Rampage has disappeared
Oh, no, he has dropped out of political discussions, but is very much in touch. He is a greatly evolved music lover and has been a huge source of information. Far beyond my amateur competencies. I deeply admire him.
 
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bonobashi

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saiyan yesss. But am hesitant to reach out there ... to him.

And Rampage has disappeared
I have just enrolled him in insaniyat, to general applause. Everyone was very pleased with his profile and his initial self-description.
 
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Kshithij Sharma

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Dec 4, 2017
756
551
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May I suggest reading about Khilafat Movement, and Jinnah's opposition to Gandhi over the same? That shall be a starter. Also, of Nehru's role subsequently as an enabler of these policies, especially the setting up of ghettos in the post partition India, much to the chagrin of Sardar Patel?
Khilafat movement was extremely foolish but it was not Gandhi who started it There was already movement for that and Gandhi merged it with Non cooperation. Gandhi could have mobilised Hindus but didn't. It was that there was already muslim movement and angry muslims over re-uniting of Bengal after partition in 1906.

Also, the ghettos of muslims were a natural consequence of muslims social life.

So was PV Narasimha Rao, so was, many would argue, Modi, just before Godhra. And we all know how things have played out in both the cases. :D

I am sure you get the irony
PV Narasimha Rao was chance PM, though the policies of him was dictated by USA due to pressure of liberalisation and USSR collapse.
Modi was a strategist of BJP and was selected as CM even without being MLA for once. Good luck, with such theory.

Objective: To have a homeland for all Indians.
How do you define Indians and why should anyone care about the categorisation?
Responsibility: As enumerated by the Fundamental Duties.
Why should anyone follow the fundamental duties? What was so special about the duties listed by a bunch of people? Why can't another bunch of people list out another bunch of duties? After all, these things were written and consented by only a select few people without giving proper well reasoned answers to the possible questions. Added to it is that this was written during Emergency time.
Punishment: As enunciated by various laws under the aegis of the Constitution of India.

Enforcement: By Law of the Land.
Constitution or the laws were not made by the land but a bunch of people and in this case, people who had no legitimacy, following or direct affection of the people. The so called constituent assembly was made without proper elections or by result delivering leaders. Indian independence was obtained by Subhash Chandra Bose (INA revolt) and not by congress.

Here is an interview by BBC of Dr Ambedkar whereby he says the same (1955):

I will hint at something here briefly, the discussion can be kept for a later date.

Islamic scholars bat for Sharia courts - Times of India

A small article in todays ToI Hyderabad edition.

The day this starts happening, understand that the law is failing. People will use this to justify an antagonist approach, without understanding that this gains traction as the State fails to exercise it's writ and it's laws.
The laws were never holding in the first place. People must voluntarily accept the law which never happened. A bunch of people imposing a set of rules favourable to them without people'e consent is not law but dictat. As long as there is no mutual agreement of the people, there is no law.

People were too disorganised, poor and uneducated that they didn't even know to rebel. Pangs of hunger and famine makes a person forget about anything else

Also, the notion of authority is really not meaningful. As seen in all major wars, when there is need for large scale mobilisation, civilians are also called upon to fight. The divide between officers, soldiers and civilians is just division of labour and not real power. Real power exists only when someone is individually powerful - like superman, which in general is not the case. So, laws can function only when there is any meaningful agreement between people. Otherwise, it is just "deception" till people wake up and when people wake up, turmoil
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
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410
Off the cuff, the sources are difficult to name. @bonobashi remains a library by himself. I shall request him to give some pointers for materials to refer to. But seeing majority here, unwilling to learn, you have to take a call.

May I suggest reading about Khilafat Movement, and Jinnah's opposition to Gandhi over the same? That shall be a starter. Also, of Nehru's role subsequently as an enabler of these policies, especially the setting up of ghettos in the post partition India, much to the chagrin of Sardar Patel?

You will find it a very interesting piece of history.




So was PV Narasimha Rao, so was, many would argue, Modi, just before Godhra. And we all know how things have played out in both the cases. :D

I am sure you get the irony ;)



Kshitij, that is an interesting series of queries. May I seek your indulgence in granting me time till I am actually free? I assure you, I will get back. Simple one liner is a superfluous attempt at best.

For now:

Objective: To have a homeland for all Indians.

Responsibility: As enumerated by the Fundamental Duties.

Punishment: As enunciated by various laws under the aegis of the Constitution of India.

Enforcement: By Law of the Land.


I will hint at something here briefly, the discussion can be kept for a later date.

Islamic scholars bat for Sharia courts - Times of India

A small article in todays ToI Hyderabad edition.

The day this starts happening, understand that the law is failing. People will use this to justify an antagonist approach, without understanding that this gains traction as the State fails to exercise it's writ and it's laws.
I SWEAR ON OATH THAT I DID NOT SEE THIS SERIES OF REPLIES BEFORE MAKING MY OWN.

Incidentally, I mentioned the same thing about the Sharia in a response to someone about whether or not the parties should come to a mutual understanding about the Babri Masjid issue. One approach would involve using a Sharia concept to regularise the matter, but the moment this is done, it forms a precedent, and will open the gates of hell. We need more secularisation of the law, not a retrograde movement.

You are leaving me with nothing to say, @Hellfire, I say this with a smile on my face but in some consternation.
 
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Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
efore the Cabinet Mission of 1946, there was no solution, so what was Nehru to be PM over? There was not even agreement for independence; there was discussion only of Dominion status.

If the 'many others' did not like Gandhi's decision what prevented them from opposing him and appointing their own President? Their desire to give you some completely unfounded statements at your convenience?
People lacked character and were cowardly due to poor culture. Buddhism had seriously curbed militancy in education and made educated people more servile in nature. Also, British arrested those who were more radical. There have been several instances of rebellion and extremism but crushed by British who followed carrot and stick approach. Subhash Chandra Bose quit to form INA for this reason.
Of course he didn't. He depended entirely on Electronic Voting Machines to bring in victory in a series of elections.
Hahaha. Nehru was declared as temporary head in 1946 itself by British and even temporary govt formed under him after INA rebellion. Yes, in 1941 december session, Gandhi appointed Nehru as his successor. As I said, British suppressed those who dissented and imposed Gandhi.
What voting for partition? Are you a complete idiot? There was no vote for partition.
The Muslim league campaigned with only 1 agenda - Pakistan. 90% muslims voted for it in 1945-46 elections. There was communal electorate too which ensured that the voting percentage is clearly noted for each community. This election was vote for partition. This is a publicly available information.
 
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bonobashi

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Dec 3, 2017
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People lacked character and were cowardly due to poor culture. Buddhism had seriously curbed militancy in education and made educated people more servile in nature. Also, British arrested those who were more radical. There have been several instances of rebellion and extremism but crushed by British who followed carrot and stick approach. Subhash Chandra Bose quit to form INA for this reason.

Hahaha. Nehru was declared as temporary head in 1946 itself by British and even temporary govt formed under him after INA rebellion. Yes, in 1941 december session, Gandhi appointed Nehru as his successor. As I said, British suppressed those who dissented and imposed Gandhi.

The Muslim league campaigned with only 1 agenda - Pakistan. 90% muslims voted for it in 1945-46 elections. There was communal electorate too which ensured that the voting percentage is clearly noted for each community. This election was vote for partition. This is a publicly available information.
I am putting you on my ignore list, as you waste too much of my time.
 
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VCheng

Active member
Dec 1, 2017
140
166
New York
Find out. I will not comment. Although Iodine will be for thyroid specific cases, so that is an old thyro protective aspect


Let me just hint that this is a numbered drug. DRDO has been making it, originally a Russian product.

Also, @VCheng has hinted at a thread. Why don't you along with @Sathya (our resident radiologist?) get onto that aspect? It shall be informative and while at it, why not get into the medical aspects of CBRN, on protective drugs in addition to Multani mitti (Fueller's Earth) and Atropine, etc?
I will chip in as and when I can ....
Deleterious effect of radiation on humans and strategies to counteract them
 
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India22

New member
Dec 26, 2017
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1
India
Pakistanis dont have enough courage to visit Indian forums. In another Indian forum the way Indian members pick up Pakistani causality so meticulously that any Pakistani brainwashed by ISPR propaganda will see the real truth. I am have interacted with Pakistani members on a different international history forum and their nationalist zeal could not survive much long before us. Also Indian forums in general have much better thoroughly written posts compared to Pakistanis.
 
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Paro

Bloom17
Dec 2, 2017
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Pakistanis dont have enough courage to visit Indian forums. In another Indian forum the way Indian members pick up Pakistani causality so meticulously that any Pakistani brainwashed by ISPR propaganda will see the real truth. I am have interacted with Pakistani members on a different international history forum and their nationalist zeal could not survive much long before us. Also Indian forums in general have much better thoroughly written posts compared to Pakistanis.
I totally agree. I have been jumping different forums worldwide before landing up here. The difference I observed between Pakistanis, Indian, and Chinese is

Chinese only comment when they have knowledge on a topic.

Indians come to a forum to show their nationalism and mostly stick to Indian topics. They put forward a better counter argument with bare minimum knowledge better than other nationals.

Pakistanis come forward to promote their ultra nationalism and get provoked into arguments the fastest. The discussion turns into abusive religious bigotry no matter what the topic is.
Again Im not generalizing but in most cases. I did have a decent conversation with plenty of them as long as its not India pakistan BS
 

VCheng

Active member
Dec 1, 2017
140
166
New York
Then an introduction to the Nuclear blast has to be the base.

The three components of blast effects, thermal effects & radiation taken broadly with preventive measures without medical interventions and with.

Interesting topic.
I can go with that, except that there are ways to deliver deleterious amounts of radiation to humans without a nuclear blast too, but may be we can go there later. :D
 

bonobashi

Well-Known member
Dec 3, 2017
889
410
YES, BUT...

I like your points, but think some tweaking would make them more useful.

1) invitation and healthy debate:
most Indian forums are currently mushrooming because of heightened patriotism. as such - anything against the prevailing (in their minds) narrative increases the forum's temperature. also, not many actually know pakistanis, chinese of a better mindset who are ready to tolerate an "Indian" forum.
"Not many" is not a death sentence. Some of us know at least two dozen Pakistanis, half a dozen Chinese, maybe the same number of Bangladeshis, three or four Turks and Arabs, and others of the sort you mention; we already are fairly represented among the French.

2) an open area in the forum?
one way to solve the above is to only allow known members (facebook, linkedin profiles) - of the indian, international forumers - and allow them into this selected area. this puts a human face to the debaters and less chances of an outburst.
B A D IDEA!

That will only expose them to attack on their known profiles, by people who browse the selected area, decide a hit list and do the hits.

Instead, @Aashish @nair why not have a select area and allow carefully selected members access to this? They need not shed their pseudonyms, protecting them from attack, but can discuss matters in a sane manner without interruption.

3) the opposing narrative tolerance:
this is going through a more severe stress all through the world in my opinion. these days right wingers (popularly "bhakts") and left wingers (aka "aaptards") and status quoers ("congis") are having a hard time talking to each other - what do you think will they do to an outsider?
The problem with this is that one section contains a radical sub-section that preaches violence against a set of people who happen to be Indian citizens. That is NOT acceptable. Eliminate that lot (the proper bhakts) and the rightists (@Nilgiri, @dray?) will contribute meaningfully (Nilgiri only in the absence of Bangladeshis).

there was a popular joke from eddie griffin. he was once asked "why do we see UFOs but never seens Aliens land here?" he replied " cos they see from outerspace and see what white and black people do to each other - they are green and purple - so they dont dare to come down". i believe thats happening too.

if we show a civilized debate even in the face of opposing view points, this will give confidence for others to join. we need to do that in more regular basis and also advertise that.
 

Notsuperstitious

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Dec 31, 2017
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552
India
There is more to it than just hostile environment if by experts you meant military experts.

1 As if the environment we face on pak forums is not downright hostile?

2 the real issue IMO is the kind of military experts that exist on Pak forums. They are jingos who make weird unsustainable claims abt pakistans defence field not backed by any reasonable data. That will be called out in an Indian forum.
 
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