Why do Pakistani defence experts not frequent Indian defence forums ?

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Avi

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#1
Guys this is a genuine question and not a members forum thread. By answering this question you will come to understand a lot about human thinking and beliefs.
I don't want this a bash-bash thread or inter-forum issue.

This simple fact shows various facets of human nature. People like to stay in their comfort zone because they are unsure of their position. This is a genuine case with most Pakistani members. But why are they unsure is the biggest question. Like any other nation there are social issues in Pakistan which are very similar to ones we have in India. Education of both the nations have the colonial hangover.
A similar case study with China in mind is interesting , you will find many Chinese members frequenting Indian forums/websites because of being sure of their positions. Indians on the other hand frequent many Pakistani websites only because of this very fact , understanding the facts and knowing the limitations.
Other obvious reasons of Indian forums not tolerating their view-points , not accepting membership , relatively newer and such are excuses at best.

What does this show about the future narrative of south-aria ? The more the two of us wall ourselves the lesser tolerant , progressive we become.



Please keep this thread clean of naming forums , sites and members.
 

Bharath

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#2
1) invitation and healthy debate:
most Indian forums are currently mushrooming because of heightened patriotism. as such - anything against the prevailing (in their minds) narrative increases the forum's temperature. also, not many actually know pakistanis, chinese of a better mindset who are ready to tolerate an "Indian" forum.

2) an open area in the forum?
one way to solve the above is to only allow known members (facebook, linkedin profiles) - of the indian, international forumers - and allow them into this selected area. this puts a human face to the debaters and less chances of an outburst.

3) the opposing narrative tolerance:
this is going through a more severe stress all through the world in my opinion. these days right wingers (popularly "bhakts") and left wingers (aka "aaptards") and status quoers ("congis") are having a hard time talking to each other - what do you think will they do to an outsider?


there was a popular joke from eddie griffin. he was once asked "why do we see UFOs but never seens Aliens land here?" he replied " cos they see from outerspace and see what white and black people do to each other - they are green and purple - so they dont dare to come down". i believe thats happening too.

if we show a civilized debate even in the face of opposing view points, this will give confidence for others to join. we need to do that in more regular basis and also advertise that.
 

_Anonymous_

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#3
That's because they lack self confidence . @OP.

I've seen Zarvan on Older Forum. I don't think he'd complain of Islamophobia or even Pakistan phobia during his stay there. Its another matter he stuck purely to defence related issues .
 

bonobashi

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#4
Guys this is a genuine question and not a members forum thread. By answering this question you will come to understand a lot about human thinking and beliefs.
I don't want this a bash-bash thread or inter-forum issue.



Other obvious reasons of Indian forums not tolerating their view-points , not accepting membership , relatively newer and such are excuses at best.

What does this show about the future narrative of south-aria ? The more the two of us wall ourselves the lesser tolerant , progressive we become.



Please keep this thread clean of naming forums , sites and members.
Because of the atmosphere that prevailed in older Indian fora, including The One That Must Not Be Named. I numbered some of the very senior, very responsible people from the oldest forum among my personal friends - it was well represented at my daughter's wedding reception in Bangalore - but their attitudes towards Pakistan and Pakistanis were so toxic that I never applied for membership there. Some Pakistanis have reported being rejected out of hand at the point of application, others have reported, or hinted at brutal treatment on a daily basis when they joined, others, who joined with false nationality, reported an atmosphere so hostile that they shrank from comment, and finally let their membership lapse.

I can talk about their possible reluctance to join here, but on a purely speculative basis, and only if specifically permitted by someone in authority (like you). Not having spoken to any Pakistani about it, it has to be speculative. Before venturing to do so, my basic question is: does the Strategic Frontier Research Foundation really want members other than Indian? That is not at all clear even now, even today. Pakistanis figure as a sub-set of this, and the policy of the forum shows up in practice, whatever is said at any abstract level.
 

bonobashi

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#5
Guys this is a genuine question and not a members forum thread. By answering this question you will come to understand a lot about human thinking and beliefs.
I don't want this a bash-bash thread or inter-forum issue.



Other obvious reasons of Indian forums not tolerating their view-points , not accepting membership , relatively newer and such are excuses at best.

What does this show about the future narrative of south-aria ? The more the two of us wall ourselves the lesser tolerant , progressive we become.



Please keep this thread clean of naming forums , sites and members.
Have you ever thought of asking Pakistanis themselves? Their answers can be sorted out in terms of match to your criterion of military knowledge and understanding of military issues by a small panel of experts (not including myself).

This asking them can be done very easily.
 

Superkaif

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#6
1) invitation and healthy debate:
most Indian forums are currently mushrooming because of heightened patriotism. as such - anything against the prevailing (in their minds) narrative increases the forum's temperature. also, not many actually know pakistanis, chinese of a better mindset who are ready to tolerate an "Indian" forum.

2) an open area in the forum?
one way to solve the above is to only allow known members (facebook, linkedin profiles) - of the indian, international forumers - and allow them into this selected area. this puts a human face to the debaters and less chances of an outburst.

3) the opposing narrative tolerance:
this is going through a more severe stress all through the world in my opinion. these days right wingers (popularly "bhakts") and left wingers (aka "aaptards") and status quoers ("congis") are having a hard time talking to each other - what do you think will they do to an outsider?


there was a popular joke from eddie griffin. he was once asked "why do we see UFOs but never seens Aliens land here?" he replied " cos they see from outerspace and see what white and black people do to each other - they are green and purple - so they dont dare to come down". i believe thats happening too.

if we show a civilized debate even in the face of opposing view points, this will give confidence for others to join. we need to do that in more regular basis and also advertise that.
You make commendable analysis. I will interject my personal opinion for what it's worth tommorow when I'm in front of my Lan top. My fingers are too fat for a long post on my iPhone ?
 
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#8
Because of the atmosphere that prevailed in older Indian fora, including The One That Must Not Be Named. I numbered some of the very senior, very responsible people from the oldest forum among my personal friends - it was well represented at my daughter's wedding reception in Bangalore - but their attitudes towards Pakistan and Pakistanis were so toxic that I never applied for membership there. Some Pakistanis have reported being rejected out of hand at the point of application, others have reported, or hinted at brutal treatment on a daily basis when they joined, others, who joined with false nationality, reported an atmosphere so hostile that they shrank from comment, and finally let their membership lapse.

I can talk about their possible reluctance to join here, but on a purely speculative basis, and only if specifically permitted by someone in authority (like you). Not having spoken to any Pakistani about it, it has to be speculative. Before venturing to do so, my basic question is: does the Strategic Frontier Research Foundation really want members other than Indian? That is not at all clear even now, even today. Pakistanis figure as a sub-set of this, and the policy of the forum shows up in practice, whatever is said at any abstract level.
I concur with a few things here. The Indian forums are generally less tolerant of divergent point of views, even amongst themselves let alone from across the border.
The pak forum though turned a little hostile later but it was refreshing at how much criticisms and trolling 'I' got away with, real or not. It was only after I came to know some Indian members, did I join the previous Indian forum. But it was restrictive in what could be posted and how one should behave.
If that was for Indian members, the folks from across will obviously be a little circumspect and maybe intimidated and only trollers would get through and for lesser duration obviously.

This strategicfront is more of a think tank and platform to exchange views, so I am not sure if that thing is welcome here.
 

bonobashi

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#10
There is no restrictions for any nationality here.....In fact we welcome divergent views....
Then, my dear chap, we need to do a little more. Actually, more than a little more. It starts with keeping Sanghis from exceeding their bounds. Not restricting them, but checking their viciousness. It goes on into approaching decent posters whom we know ourselves, to come over and to post here. It extends to doing unto others what you would have done to you; PDF never had an Indian Moderator, remember? And remember how that was resented? Does that give you a hint?

It isn't enough to be yourselves individually people of good intent and good purpose.
 

VCheng

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#12
There is no restrictions for any nationality here.....In fact we welcome divergent views....
How American of you! :D

Seriously though, it all depends on the basic philosophy of a forum. Is it endless oneupmanship, or real dialogue? As representative microcosms of their respective nations, most "defense" forums related to South Asia tend to remain stuck in the former and not the latter philosophy, sadly.


PS: The real part is that people like me are in the crosshairs from both sides. :D
 

VCheng

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#13
Nah. You and @Azlan Haider are highly respected by me and others here and people like @bonobashi

You guys post on whatever you want.
Yes, and thank you. However, it has been rather hard to keep a intelligent debate going due to inappropriate behavior by certain members from both sides, despite great support by the management. To paraphrase, we work with the forum members we have, not the ones we wish we had. :D


A funny side effect is the what I say here (or in the previous forum) is used against me in hilarious ways somewhere else.
 

Aashish

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#14
I believe the idea here is to allow anyone with interest to discuss things with a free and fair platform. Tolerance level is not an issue..

About religious colors and issues, I am sure most of us are clear it's not a IT cell for any ideology to spam us and kill all kind soft possible discussion to just one myopic following.

We are approaching almost a 1month birthday time for the platform. Interestingly we have thought not to curb viewpoints even if it's extreme except certain points where we have to interject owing to etiquette.

We believe in a free and fair discussion, the end result will see such posters with extreme polarising views with no rational, logical and intellectual backing to support their viewpoints , naturally filtered out.

That's why the moderation level is not done with a team of moderators but rather left to community itself to moderate out such views.. classical it may be, many may see this as too much bookish.. but then as a student of science I say it's a self corrected feedback system like our society itself.

Strategic frontier does not believe in demarcating anyone based on boundaries , border and nationalities.. users are encouraged to post anything what can be discussed within our broad contours of topic.

In the end , "we" would definitely like to say.. the LT goal is to come out with sometimes harsh but impartial views about anything that is strategic and related to us. Thus the paint brush is not just defence.. it's far wider..

Please feel free to post , write and analyse critically.. you will soon see how different it is from everybody else..
 

Golden_Rule

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#16
People like to stay in their comfort zone because they are unsure of their position. This is a genuine case with most Pakistani members. But why are they unsure is the biggest question.
No where in the history of world has Islamic expansion been defeated and reversed so intensely, except in India. In 1947, Islamic rule was finally pushed back to the confine of Pakistan (till then the Islamics were hallucinating to recover and inherit India from the British). Pakistan has now assumed Allah's responsibility of "ghazwa e hind" to recover Islamic expansion eastwards. This obsession deters Pakistani rulers to think realistically and rationally. Hence they follow all the dirty tricks in the book to achieve fulfillment of their obsession - to the extent they send their own illiterate and Koran brainwashed children into death traps in the name of jihad. It has become a way of life to lie, hate, live in denial, exploit their own citizens through the illusion of false propaganda.

Only lies and falsehood has fear of getting exposed. Truth does not. The foundation of Pakistani comfort zone is built over a toxic cocktail of blind hatred and incessant lies of their though process. It is a derivation of closed mind walled by the doctrine created by a self serving illiterate but over ambitious man in order to have political control and power over the masses, 1400 years back. What started with an imposition on a tribe then is now imposed on 20% of humanity through the brute power of Fear and Greed. Greed of Jannat, 72 virgins, merciful, believer vs Kafir, etc. This incites the cult members towards fanatical defense of religion so as to threaten with Fatwa on those who seek enlightenment from their Matrix.

It is this fear of getting exposed and their beliefs demolished, which hold them back in participating in any healthy conversation or debate.
 

Vicky

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#17
1. Pakistanis and Chinese themselves cant face truths or any other possibilities of something not acceptable to them.
2. Our ample population makes sure they have better representations (in numbers) in their site from other countries, including India not giving the need to join Indian forums to know our mindset.
3. Sometimes we have been over-arrogant ourselves.
4. Good name takes lot of time. Sadly Indian Forums had members with Toxic views that even Indian minorities in sympathy with majority Hindus will find it hard to digest and Mods turning a blind eye to improve traffic.
 

bonobashi

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#18
That point is valid and is under consideration since last forum itself. However, it got stuck for the apparent reasons of diversifying the base. Having said that, we all are aware of highly respected members from across the border who have joined in. While their views may not necessarily converge with mine and may, at times, have been contrary and left me scampering to counter them, their demeanour, the knowledge base and the intellectual content by itself, allows for an enriching and enlightening experience. Having said that, I would be failing if I were to not mention the fact that the tenacity to defend their views by the members has been exemplary, yet the objectiveness in approach is apparent and well known to us, and to you.

Let us hope that we reach a stage where these members can be proactive and contribute to forum by their views and perceptions on matters that may interest them or any other which tickles their imagination.
You, Sir, are above question!

One reason I continue to be here is because of the power and dignity of your posts, and that of several other heavyweights whose contributions I cannot find elsewhere. Your point about Mr. AH is well taken; in spite of my personal request to my former Vice Chancellor to find me a person who would address the horrible but so seductive paper that he reproduced (on Kashmir, on which point I have been told by a clod that I seem to know nothing about the subject!), I have not yet succeeded.

I urge you to prevail on the administration not to make the mistake that was made with respect to us, elsewhere, and to display visible guardianship of other nationalities by giving them their own moderator.
 

bonobashi

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#19
Seriously if this forum is for all nationalities , why do you need experts from a particular country?
For diversity. For avoiding the pool of ideas from being subject to deformation due to identity and similar focus. For learning that others have a point of view, and for learning how to cope with a situation where we may no longer make a statement and sit on our backsides with a satisfied look, knowing that there will be no opposition.

If you want a fertile discussion, you will need to create conditions that stimulate, not a uniform shackled environment that numbs the senses.
 
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#20
For diversity. For avoiding the pool of ideas from being subject to deformation due to identity and similar focus. For learning that others have a point of view, and for learning how to cope with a situation where we may no longer make a statement and sit on our backsides with a satisfied look, knowing that there will be no opposition.

If you want a fertile discussion, you will need to create conditions that stimulate, not a uniform shackled environment that numbs the senses.
There are some sensible posters, a handful. Rest of them are jihadis who hate your existence and India.



I see no point in this except trolling on both sides.
 
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